GDT: Unofficially Official 19-20 Training Camp Thread

[The Zetterberg Era]

Maybe this is me exposing my total lack of actual hockey skill, but every guy I've known with good vertical type hand-eye like that was a good stickhandler when the puck was flat, too. I don't really understand why Rasmussen isn't better at it. He's by all accounts very good at tipping pucks. He can do that all day. He can protect the puck with his reach, sure, but when it comes to evading checkers' sticks/pokechecks or a little bit of deception, he's not great at it.

He is pretty good in tight already in terms of quickly turning and getting pucks on net. He needs to get better along the boards, but he does well when the defenders are on top of him. I think he will get much better over time as he gets stonger, but that quick backhand to forehand and vice-versa exchange he showed several times. He isn't a deek you guy, but he uses his reach and quick hands in tight situations which is stick-handling.

Mittlestadt might have the best hands in that draft class behind Pattersson and he struggled a lot last year. That is because the league is hard to play in and not all these guys are ready at the same time. Bigger guys usually take longer, that might be some of the Getzlaf talk you remember but I don't think they stylistically made a ton of sense other than Rasmussen could easily bully people once he fills out if he was so inclined. I get that Hanzal doesn't excite people but he didn't play with a lot of talent in his prime in Phoenix so it is hard to know, he was always looked at quite fondly around the league. Anders Lee is another one thrown around as big men that were/are very good around the net but defensively sound. What Ras is hopefully soon is a very unique chalk top player, he is something a good coach can weaponize, especially over a series. I don't think people need to expect Rasmussen and Zadina to set the world on fire now. Larkin took off in his 4th post draft year and had another big step in his 5th year. You cannot always count on these guys to hit right away most don't they have things to work on. Ras has a lot of things going for him, to realize a top 6 role at center or the wing he has to get better, but he has plenty of time to do that.

 

[Pavels Dog]

But we're getting away from the greater point, IMO: Rasmussen's projection has been downgraded once again. He started off and he was going to be a monster center with untapped high end skill (Getzlaf) who can't be stopped in front of the net. And then he was downgraded to a Holmstrom type winger who can score a ton of dirty goals on the PP and play a complementary role at ES. After all, it wasn't that great of a draft. And now he's been downgraded again to a defensive center who's going to play on the PP. But, first, he's going to play in the AHL...

Not the greatest look. Now, please, tell me how I'm wrong and he's still on track. I'd especially like to hear from the "He's still the next Getzlaf!" contingent.

...where are the supposed "downgrades" coming from?

 

[RedWingzz]

He'll need to be better than he was in Traverse City.

Yeah, for sure. I don't think he was "bad" at the tournament, he was making some nice plays and showed some nice patience with the puck. But he is a self-proclaimed goal scorer, so he has to start scoring some goals at some point to make the team.

 

[TCNorthstars]

Poor Taro!

 

[MBH]

Poor Taro!

That's what hockey players looked like in the 70s and 80s.
Yzerman. Gretzky. Lafleur.
Sure, you had some farm boys like Howe and Hull. But lots were just athletic guys who were a million miles from buff.

 

[Henkka]

I just wonder how big difference you can do at one summer, during what, 6 months?

Like without using some tougher things like normal pourage on your breakfast?

 

[Voodoo Glow Skulls]

I just wonder how big difference you can do at one summer, during what, 6 months?

Like without using some tougher things like normal pourage on your breakfast?

Well if you've never had the training aspect to you're off-season, introducing a program can have that effect.

25 pounds of muscle is capable in that time frame.

 

[Henkka]

Well if you've never had the training aspect to you're off-season, introducing a program can have that effect.

25 pounds of muscle is capable in that time frame.

Ok. Sounds good.

Like always, with any prospect/young player/late bloomer, if there's that kind of room for development, he's a great find.

 

[MBH]

The way people continually try to put a ceiling on almost every aspect of Rasmussen's game is so ridiculous.

It seems a lot less ridiculous than thinking this guy is going to be a center.
Doesn't skate well enough.
Does pass the puck well enough.
Doesn't carry the puck well enough.
And, if he's center, you make it really, really hard for him to get to the place where needs to be (net front) because since he's backchecking a lot, he's likely going to be the last forward up the ice a lot.

What exactly are you seeing here?

 

[Henkka]

- Should have drafted Vilardi
- Should have drafted Tippet
- Should have drafted Liljegren
- Should have drafted Necas
- Should have drafted Välimäki

All were so much better than Rasmussen 2 years ago.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

- Should have drafted Vilardi
- Should have drafted Tippet
- Should have drafted Liljegren
- Should have drafted Necas
- Should have drafted Välimäki

All were so much better than Rasmussen 2 years ago.

Necas was really the only guy I wanted over him. Rasmussen is a very unique player, they took the homerun swing which is what we were asking for at the time. I think some just disagree with that assessment. But that was the big swing from what I have heard, despite the safe narrative that a lot of people associate with the pick.

 

[deca guard]

im no where near putting a limit on razz ceiling . the guys 6'6'' , it takes longer for guys that size to fully develop coordination . and pro training experts should be a huge positive in this matter . might take a couple years but im still super high on him . yes he might not be a classic top 6 puck transporting centerman and shall need good puck carrying / passing wingers but that can be handled . just give him every o zone start and watch opponant nets get swamped by our shooters

 

[Henkka]

I didn't also never bought those Getzlaf-comparisons. Saw that mentioned twice in the old Rasmussen-discussion. Getzlaf is elite passer and Rasmussen is not that.

Bob McKenzie described him as "better skating Holmström". He has always been that "Demolition Man 2.0", updated modern hockey version of Homer for me. But with that skating and huge reach, his stick defence will be more valuable when protecting leads, breaking plays, penalty kill. PP net-front precence + shut-down line center at even strength. There should be a lot more on him than there was on Holmström.

 

[Run the Jewels]

It's early, but I kind of like this lineup at the moment.

Mantha-Larkin-Bert
Hirose-Nielsen-Athanasiou
Filppula-Veleno-Erne
De La Rose-Glendening-Puempel

DeKeyser-Green
Nemeth-Hronek
Ericsson-Seider
Bowey
Daley

Howard
Bernier

Veleno and Seider are given easy matchups to start the season.
Puempel can basically replace Abby who should be waived. Erne replaces Helm who can be waived. That's $6.4 million less for the same or better production!
Zadina, Svechnikov, Rasmussen and Cholowski start in Grand Rapids and can be brought up if necessary.

 

[Ghost of Ethan Hunt]

Re: Ras... Michael Rasmussen

his PNHLe & how it's calculated etc. https://www.nhlrankking.com/PNHLe.htm

 

[vladdy16]

Mat's Sundin? That's more Auston Matthews that Rasmussen.
Rasmussen never had Sundin's skillset or skating.

Besides. Sundin thrived during the clutch and grab era. You can't be slow in today's era at center.

There aren't many below-average skaters doing well at center in today's game.
And the guys who are close to making that list? They didn't go 8-10-18 in their rookie year.

Well, I would say your first mistake is trying to reach a conclusion at this juncture. Second to that, using a general rule of thumb as a lens to evaluate a single individual, you are going to arrive at an incomplete and biased conclusion.

In this case the rule of thumb you are using, it doesnt appear to be historically accurate, or tactically relevant. A players speed attribute alone has no bearing on whether a player is a winger or a center.

If you want to say that Rasmussen will have his struggles at center because of his speed, you would be correct. But that alone does nothing to lead to the conclusion you are positing.

Beyond that you are going to pretend that Rasmussens rookie season should be an accurate barometer for future production? Seems surface level and flippant to me.

Sundin was not a good skater, and did not play nearly as deep in the offensive zone as Matthews.

Matthews does things way more like Lindros than Sundin. Meanwhile Rasmussen, like Sundin, will not win a foot race down the ice, so he uses his size high on the boards, and he does the majority of his playmaking at the circle tops.

And finally, and most importantly. Rasmussen has good feet and better than average skating technique in small spaces than most teenagers his size. As he puts on more weight, his stride will become a lot more powerful, and as I discussed earlier, it's still on the table that he develops a game similar to Filpulla where his skating and positioning at center is a strength, not a weakness.

He's put in two good performances, where his speed deficit was on full display. Seems like a developing prospect to me, not a misfit bust. Time will tell, but speaking in absolutes seems incredible.

 

[vladdy16]

Respectfully, that's not the player we saw last season. You can see that in the video of his goals just a little earlier. Maybe he'll find more aspects to his game, but last year he only had the one.

... That's because the player you saw last year was playing wing, not center.

 

[Oddbob]

Rasmussen skates quite well for a 6'6" guy. How many guys that big really skate much better, cause most of them are slower at that size? Expecting him to skate like a 6'0" guy is ridiculous and he is not at all slow for a big guy. He already looks better to me this year, compared to last year. He doesn't necessarily look bigger, but he isn't falling as much so far, and he looks a lot more confident with the puck.

 

[MBH]

Well, I would say your first mistake is trying to reach a conclusion at this juncture. Second to that, using a general rule of thumb as a lens to evaluate a single individual, you are going to arrive at an incomplete and biased conclusion.

In this case the rule of thumb you are using, it doesnt appear to be historically accurate, or tactically relevant. A players speed attribute alone has no bearing on whether a player is a winger or a center.

If you want to say that Rasmussen will have his struggles at center because of his speed, you would be correct. But that alone does nothing to lead to the conclusion you are positing.

Beyond that you are going to pretend that Rasmussens rookie season should be an accurate barometer for future production? Seems surface level and flippant to me.

Sundin was not a good skater, and did not play nearly as deep in the offensive zone as Matthews.

Matthews does things way more like Lindros than Sundin. Meanwhile Rasmussen, like Sundin, will not win a foot race down the ice, so he uses his size high on the boards, and he does the majority of his playmaking at the circle tops.

And finally, and most importantly. Rasmussen has good feet and better than average skating technique in small spaces than most teenagers his size. As he puts on more weight, his stride will become a lot more powerful, and as I discussed earlier, it's still on the table that he develops a game similar to Filpulla where his skating and positioning at center is a strength, not a weakness.

He's put in two good performances, where his speed deficit was on full display. Seems like a developing prospect to me, not a misfit bust. Time will tell, but speaking in absolutes seems incredible.

Let's make sure you know what you're arguing against.
I believe he can be a top 6 or top 9 winger.
That's not really a bust.
I don't think he's a center.
He doesn't have the skill. He doesn't have the skating. He's not a passer. He's not a puck carrier or deker.

Sure, is it possible that somehow he magically turns into those things?

Yeah. I guess.

 

[vladdy16]

Let's make sure you know what you're arguing against.
I believe he can be a top 6 or top 9 winger.
That's not really a bust.
I don't think he's a center.
He doesn't have the skill. He doesn't have the skating. He's not a passer. He's not a puck carrier or deker.

Sure, is it possible that somehow he magically turns into those things?

Yeah. I guess.

Making appeals to your own authority isn't making an argument.

All those skills you listed are incredibly general. He's not a deker? "A passer"? But you can be a top 6 winger without any of that?

How can that be the terminology you are using, when positing that you know more than all of this guys youth coaches, all the scouts that drafted him, and now the pro organization that is attempting to develop him?

And for the record, if all those things you listed turn out to not be true, it's not because of "magic". It would be because you were wrong. Which is a good thing to keep in mind when discussing things that havent happened yet.

 

[DatsMagic]

Well if you've never had the training aspect to you're off-season, introducing a program can have that effect.

25 pounds of muscle is capable in that time frame.

Lol no its not. 25 pounds of lean muscle mass is not even close to being possible in 6 months. For someone who is a dedicated lifter with a perfect diet it takes years to attain naturally.

 

[MBH]

Making appeals to your own authority isn't making an argument.

All those skills you listed are incredibly general. He's not a deker? "A passer"? But you can be a top 6 winger without any of that?

How can that be the terminology you are using, when positing that you know more than all of this guys youth coaches, all the scouts that drafted him, and now the pro organization that is attempting to develop him?

And for the record, if all those things you listed turn out to not be true, it's not because of "magic". It would be because you were wrong. Which is a good thing to keep in mind when discussing things that havent happened yet.

Building strawmen and arguing against them isn't an effective argument either.

I think, based on the skillset I see today, he's a top 6/9 winger - with some work.
I don't see him ever making the kind of progress he would need to make to be an effective center in today's NHL.

 

[vladdy16]

Building strawmen and arguing against them isn't an effective argument either.

I think, based on the skillset I see today, he's a top 6/9 winger - with some work.
I don't see him ever making the kind of progress he would need to make to be an effective center in today's NHL.

Ha. What strawmen am I arguing against? It's your premise that Rasmussen cant play center because his skillset is more suited to wing.

A premise you've failed to elaborate on beyond your initial, generalized, take.

You keep restating your premise, without offering details or insights as to how you arrived there.

Luckily, you dont seem interested in being collaborative, so this is simply an issue where time will tell soon enough, if you were right, lucky right, wrong or magically unlucky wrong.

 

[MBH]

Ha. What strawmen am I arguing against? It's your premise that Rasmussen cant play center because his skillset is more suited to wing.

A premise you've failed to elaborate on beyond your initial, generalized, take.

You keep restating your premise, without offering details or insights as to how you arrived there.

Luckily, you dont seem interested in being collaborative, so this is simply an issue where time will tell soon enough, if you were right, lucky right, wrong or magically unlucky wrong.

Seems like a developing prospect to me, not a misfit bust

Who called him a misfit bust? Not me.
What is there to collaborate on?
Rasmussen couldn't skate well enough to be a passable winger.
Everyone knows that being a center requires more skating. It's a 200-foot game every shift at center.

It's also common for centers to be skilled puck carriers and puck distributors.

You're asking for an awful lot of improvement for him to make it as a legit C.

I want him to succeed. And I think the best path is to make him a power-forward winger who plays netfront.

Just because Larkin - a speed demon - was able to shift from wing to C in his sophomore year doesn't mean that's the right course for Rasmussen.

 

[vladdy16]

Re: Ras... Michael Rasmussen

his PNHLe & how it's calculated etc. https://www.nhlrankking.com/PNHLe.htm


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I will say, to Felony Joe's credit, this is some support to his case. Even in the worst of circumstances, Ras looks to be capable of middle lineup production from the wing. (According to the stat)

Of course you could say the opposite as well, and say look at what happened to the graph when he changed positions.

Obviously we all know the context to the graph, so neither observation has much play, but it is good to remember that Ras had a relatively good year last year.