Unless Russia reverses, I would not draft a Russian

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Levitate

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Jul 29, 2004
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yeah i skipped over one person being a dumbass...your post was worded like you were talking to everyone else who wasn't all pro russia

as for the rest of your point...i don't think a team should have to pay a contract if a player wants to break it for one thing. no buying out or anything like that. and yes there should be reasonable compensation then for the club. keyword reasonable. i can't even say it's fair having to pay $10 mill straight up for Nash.

the thing it boils down to for me is what the players want to do. If a young kid in Russia really wants to play in the NHL, he should be allowed to be in a position to do so and not locked into a long term contract by a Russian team hell bent on keeping him or getting 10's of millions in return for him. (ok i exaggerate but oh well). on the flip side, if a young NA kid really wants to go play in Russia...fine, he should be given the same opportunity to either be a FA and sign there or his club get some compensation, and not have him locked into a long contract when his real wish is to play elsewhere. however, excuse me for being ethno-centric, i don't see that one happening as much...

the nash comparison falls apart some because you're giving the scenario of an established player in the NHL who suddenly wants to go to Russia while he's still under contract (hello? Jagr? what?) and not a rookie kid who's forced to sign a longer contract than he wants when he really wants to play elsewhere. if you're already a NHL vet i think you need to just ride out the contract because you negotiated it and agreed on it yourself without the pressure of being a rookie on your head. like in jagr's case...he skipped all the way to the bank with his $11 mill per/year 6 year deal...he didn't have to do 6 years, but he did cuz he wanted all that guaranteed $$. and he obviously wanted to play in NA or he could have just refused a contract extension, let his deal run out and then leave the NHL.

i don't now if i'm making the distinction clear enough here...i'm just trying to say there's a difference between a rookie being forced into a long term deal he doesn't want and a vet making that decision to sign a long term deal for the $$.
 

Sturminator

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El_Loco_Avs said:
Players are always free to sign or not to sign a contract. Players can refuse to sign long contracts if they want to go the NHL. It's something that the players and the clubs have to work out.
The point, though, is that without solid labor laws or player solidarity in the form of a union, the teams have all of the leverage when offering youngsters entry contracts. Sure, a 17 year old kid may have the right not to sign that 8-year deal with Dynamo, but if he's being told it's the only way he'll ever see the Superleague and he's got no union to back him, I'm guessing he signs it. Is there a Russian players' union? A CBA?

My concern here is that young Russian players may end up being the real victims of this struggle between the leagues because, let's face it, most of the really good ones do want to come to the NHL for the bigger payday. The best solution for Superleague teams would be to simply offer competitive salaries, but I guess they cannot do that. Blame Karl Marx for that one.
 

Seachd

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Mar 16, 2002
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From tsn.ca

"Without this agreement, they (the NHL) can really take any player it wants at any time without any compensation," Szemberg said. "The deal we are on the verge of signing regulates this."

That's the risk Russia is running. Personally, if a deal doesn't get done, and they do lose players for nothing, I won't feel one iota of sympathy for them.
 

Buffaloed

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Seachd said:
From tsn.ca

"Without this agreement, they (the NHL) can really take any player it wants at any time without any compensation," Szemberg said. "The deal we are on the verge of signing regulates this."

That's the risk Russia is running. Personally, if a deal doesn't get done, and they do lose players for nothing, I won't feel one iota of sympathy for them.

The arrogance of the IIHF is amazing. The notion that the IIHF is needed to make contracts legally binding is ridiculous. If an NHL club takes a guy under contract it'll end up in court and compensation will be ordered by a judge.
 

Buffaloed

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Kaizer said:
Judge in Russia or judge in Canada/USA ? :D :D

It doesn't matter. Any judge would recognize the enforceability of contracts as a necessity for international commerce. It's like Intel signing a deal with Sanyo to give them exclusive rights to a product and then turning around and signing a deal with Hitachi giving them exclusive rights to the same product.
 

The Vengabus

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Bias?

Well...I am Russian. Then again, I've lived here my whole life, and I'll be damned if I ever see an RSL game live. I love the NHL, and coincidentally almost all my favourite players are Europeans, the same ones that are threatened to be held hostage in the future, dissalowing me to be able to enjoy watching their talents here in Canada. I don't see the bias when I'm arguing against the NHL's seemingly god-given right to take what they want without paying anything more than peanuts.

Why does the league matter? Why is it fair to not stick to your contract and go to another league, while its not fair to abandon your contract and go to another team in the same league? Wheres the reasoning in that? The Russian players signed a contract with the TEAM. A contract, in essence, is ownership. Taking somebody's property without compensation is theft. But of course, as long as their from a different country, its ok...right.
 

Epsilon

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Oct 26, 2002
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People are complaining about how in the Russian system 17 year olds are forced to sign long-term deals if they want to get playing time. And yet this is EXACTLY what the CHL does in North America, forcing 15 year olds to sign their rights away until they are 20 and agreeing to play for peanuts. At least in Russia they are making an actual professional salary, not getting an allowance. CHL players arn't allowed to negociate their contracts and are forced to sign the "standard player contract" that forfeits their right to get out and play somewhere else like the AHL or Europe. The NHL and AHL have shamefully agreed to support this slave system through agreements that bar CHL players from playing in the AHL under a certain age, even if there is an AHL team who would be more than happy to sign them (like what would have happened this year had the lockout continued and Crosby had wanted to play for the Marlies).
 

Vladiator

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Levitate

"the thing it boils down to for me is what the players want to do. If a young kid in Russia really wants to play in the NHL, he should be allowed to be in a position to do so and not locked into a long term contract by a Russian team hell bent on keeping him or getting 10's of millions in return for him."

And then the player gets to the NHL and his team gets long-term rights over him (until he is 27?). And you consider that to be OK? Where is the logic?


"the nash comparison falls apart some because you're giving the scenario of an established player in the NHL who suddenly wants to go to Russia while he's still under contract (hello? Jagr? what?) and not a rookie kid who's forced to sign a longer contract than he wants when he really wants to play elsewhere."

Again, a European rookie is stuck with his first NHL team for around 10 years unless they trade his rights. An NHL rookie does NOT have a right to choose where to play. But you want them to have such a right in RSL?
 

Seachd

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Vladiator said:
And then the player gets to the NHL and his team gets long-term rights over him (until he is 27?). And you consider that to be OK? Where is the logic?

Again, a European rookie is stuck with his first NHL team for around 10 years unless they trade his rights. An NHL rookie does NOT have a right to choose where to play. But you want them to have such a right in RSL?

You're talking different things here. A player isn't able to pick where he wants to play within a league, but he should be able to choose which pro league he wants to play in.
 

kingsfan

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Mar 18, 2002
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"People are complaining about how in the Russian system 17 year olds are forced to sign long-term deals if they want to get playing time. And yet this is EXACTLY what the CHL does in North America, forcing 15 year olds to sign their rights away until they are 20 and agreeing to play for peanuts. At least in Russia they are making an actual professional salary, not getting an allowance. CHL players arn't allowed to negociate their contracts and are forced to sign the "standard player contract" that forfeits their right to get out and play somewhere else like the AHL or Europe. The NHL and AHL have shamefully agreed to support this slave system through agreements that bar CHL players from playing in the AHL under a certain age, even if there is an AHL team who would be more than happy to sign them (like what would have happened this year had the lockout continued and Crosby had wanted to play for the Marlies)."

Players aren't forced to play in the CHL. There is other routes to go, including going towards college/university. Also, the players are hardly stuck with a team till they are 20, as we are talking about multi-million dollar transfer fees here in this thread. When was the last time you seen an NHL team pay that to a CHL team? Typically, a team pays around $1500 per drafted player to a CHL team while they are still on the junior team. I'm not sure on the fee, if any, there is to have a player leave at 18 or 19 for the NHL/AHL, but I'd be shocked if it's over 10K per player, not the $10 mill that was rumoured for Ovechkin. If junior teams got even close to that $300,000 to $900,000 a european team is rumoured to get under the new deal, there would be little need for teams to be claiming financial stress, like a number do in the CHL.

Also, the players might be getting only an 'allowance' in your mind, but they also get free room and board, as well as one year of paid post-secondary education for each year of CHL duty. Considering that can easily be 10K a year or more, that's not to bad. A player who stays for five years in the CHL can, when adding room, board, schooling and other perks together easily clears over $100,000 for the five years.

And you are comparing a 15 year-old signing a 5 year deal to a 17-year-old signing an 8 year deal. Big difference. How many players at 15-17 years of age not named Crosby are worth signing a pro contract? Most wouldn't get contracts with even an ECHL team. Most need to be twenty to be able to really start making any impact on a professional team and the ones that are good enough to move on to the pro level usually do sign a contract and are already in the NHL/AHL, barring a contractual problem.

Meanwhile, a player signed from ages 17 to 25 is giving up much more of his 'pro' years. It's a totally different scenario.
 

Vladiator

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Jan 2, 2005
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Searchd

"You're talking different things here. A player isn't able to pick where he wants to play within a league, but he should be able to choose which pro league he wants to play in."

But does the person has a right to change leagues when he is under the contract? As far as I remember Yashin was forbidden to play in Russia when he wanted out of Ottawa.
 

kdb209

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Jan 26, 2005
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Buffaloed said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaizer
Judge in Russia or judge in Canada/USA ?
It doesn't matter. Any judge would recognize the enforceability of contracts as a necessity for international commerce. It's like Intel signing a deal with Sanyo to give them exclusive rights to a product and then turning around and signing a deal with Hitachi giving them exclusive rights to the same product.
Apparently it does matter. The RSL Owners admitted this themselves.
Shabdurasulov: "We should not only reject contract, but also consider our next steps. We must gather all teams, pay to lawyers, who can win in court in America. Make NHL honour our contracts."
...
Shalaev: "We do not stand a chance in American court, I asked their lawyers. I will not even tell You what all did we discuss, but lawyers tell, we do not face a chance."

I don't think that the Russian teams would fight and win in a US or Canadian court. It is very likely that US / Canadian lawyers would find grounds for invalidating the original contracts - signed under duress, etc. And barring an agreement between the NHL/IIHF/RSL they could not prevent a player from signing with the NHL and would probably be forced to sue the player who broke the contract (and not the NHL) and may very well be limited to recouping proven economic damages. It is VERY unlikely that a US court would order specific performance of the completeion of the contract.
 

kdb209

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Jan 26, 2005
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Vladiator said:
"the thing it boils down to for me is what the players want to do. If a young kid in Russia really wants to play in the NHL, he should be allowed to be in a position to do so and not locked into a long term contract by a Russian team hell bent on keeping him or getting 10's of millions in return for him."

And then the player gets to the NHL and his team gets long-term rights over him (until he is 27?). And you consider that to be OK? Where is the logic?


"the nash comparison falls apart some because you're giving the scenario of an established player in the NHL who suddenly wants to go to Russia while he's still under contract (hello? Jagr? what?) and not a rookie kid who's forced to sign a longer contract than he wants when he really wants to play elsewhere."

Again, a European rookie is stuck with his first NHL team for around 10 years unless they trade his rights. An NHL rookie does NOT have a right to choose where to play. But you want them to have such a right in RSL?

The big difference between the NHL and RSL here is that all those restrictions in the NHL were negotiated between the league and the players (NHLPA) through a collective bargaining agreement. Without the agreement of the players and a negotiated CBA, all those restrictions - draft, RFAs, etc - go right out the window.

If and when there is a real players union in the RSL, the the players have the right to collectively bargain, and have the leverage to say no to onerous one-sided long term contracts, then you can make an apples-to-apples comparison.
 

Vladiator

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So until and when Russia and other European countries start copying and mimicing the rules and regulations of their big brother - NHL, they do not have a right to have their contracts respected? Which, by the way, are governed by national laws...

You have to accept that some countries do things differenly. You trade players, draft picks, rights; we transfer players for money. But there is a common element -- both NHL and Russia respect players' contracts when it comes to their own leagues. Moreover, Russia is supposed to respect NHL contracts -- see Yashin. But for some reason, normal rules do not apply to NHL.
 

Sturminator

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I wonder if they're really going to negotiate in that old KGB torture site. That would be sweet! Maybe we could get the Russkies to pluck Bettman's eyeballs out? Pretty please? If only Goodenow was somehow on the trip, as well. I guess you can't have everything.
 

me2

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Jun 28, 2002
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I wouldn't be surprised to see more young hopefuls making the move to the CHL or other NA junior leagues to avoid contract hassles.
 
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