University Of Toronto Study: Canada can support an addtional SIX franchises

GSC2k2*

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For a guy thats from Hamilton you should know better than any that we can support a team and there are only two things keeping us from getting one.
It is precisely because I am from Hamilton that I know very well that a Hamilton franchise would not work.

I'll give you a hint, one is on one side of the QEW

That thing on one side of the QEW is "reality" (also known as the fact that all NHL marekts depend on a corporate community).

and the other is on the other side.

And that other thing is "the cold hard truth" (also known as the absence of a sufficient corporate community in the Hamilton area, and a near complete absence in Hamiltonn proper).
 

rojac

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lots of peeps. please see Grey Cup TV ratings.

it's a fun league with affordable ticket prices.

When the average CFL player makes less money than most AHL players, I find it hard to take it seriously as a professional sports league.

And the reason I'd call it a joke is because it has allowed a single owner to own two teams in the league -- something that no respectable league should ever permit.
 
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Man Bear Pig

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Montreal could easily support a second team.

Both Toronto and Montreal could easily support another team but there's some issues. Absolutely no way the Leafs and Habs owners would be so willing to allow another team on their turf. It would also directly effect the Sabres if another team were in Southern Ontario, many of the fans that follow and go to Sabres games are in Souther Ontario. Another small issue would be how many Leafs and Habs fans would be so willing to just switch teams. I mean, I know there are casual fans who would make the leap but Leafs and Habs fans are as hardcore as they come. If another team came to Toronto I don't know too many people who would go to games, buy the teams crap etc. I think you'd need to place these teams in places that aren't in such close proximity to Montreal/Toronto. Again though, the biggest issue is still territory.
 

Man Bear Pig

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When the average CFL player makes less money than most AHL players, I find it hard to take it seriously as a professional sports league.

And the reason I'd call it a joke is because it has allowed a single owner to own two teams in the league -- something that any respectable league should ever permit.

I'm not a big fan of the CFL either. I mean, I don't watch a lot of football but I do watch it once in a while and when I do I'm watching the NFL. A better product, way better players, better production etc. I hate how people try and shove it down your throat that because it's a Canadian league It means I must support it. Just like if an NFL came to Canada(Toronto) it would hurt the Argo's, maybe the Tiger-cats and others. Why is there an obligation to an inferior product?
 

Bryan574

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For a guy thats from Hamilton you should know better than any that we can support a team and there are only two things keeping us from getting one. I'll give you a hint, one is on one side of the QEW and the other is on the other side.

Although I agree to an extent I think One of those teams has way more authority then the other .
 
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rojac

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Both Toronto and Montreal could easily support another team but there's some issues. Absolutely no way the Leafs and Habs owners would be so willing to allow another team on their turf. It would also directly effect the Sabres if another team were in Southern Ontario, many of the fans that follow and go to Sabres games are in Souther Ontario. Another small issue would be how many Leafs and Habs fans would be so willing to just switch teams. I mean, I know there are casual fans who would make the leap but Leafs and Habs fans are as hardcore as they come. If another team came to Toronto I don't know too many people who would go to games, buy the teams crap etc. I think you'd need to place these teams in places that aren't in such close proximity to Montreal/Toronto. Again though, the biggest issue is still territory.

I think you're right. While the Toronto NottheLeafs might draw great crowds when they played the Leafs, Canadiens, or other big draws, I doubt there would be many people clamoring for tickets to NottheLeafs vs. Panthers or NottheLeafs vs. Predators?
 

vezna*

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i love how the [mod] are calling bs over this study... they have the numbers, where is yours?
 
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wjhl2009fan

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Both Toronto and Montreal could easily support another team but there's some issues. Absolutely no way the Leafs and Habs owners would be so willing to allow another team on their turf. It would also directly effect the Sabres if another team were in Southern Ontario, many of the fans that follow and go to Sabres games are in Souther Ontario. Another small issue would be how many Leafs and Habs fans would be so willing to just switch teams. I mean, I know there are casual fans who would make the leap but Leafs and Habs fans are as hardcore as they come. If another team came to Toronto I don't know too many people who would go to games, buy the teams crap etc. I think you'd need to place these teams in places that aren't in such close proximity to Montreal/Toronto. Again though, the biggest issue is still territory.

With ottawa right between montreal and toronto if you puht a team in oshawa and another one in montreal that means there would be 3 other teams besides the sens with a close drive 2-4 hours.So this could open up a very messy issue would ottawa be fine with it its hard to say maybe but still it could be a risk to ottawa.
 

LadyStanley

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Remember - and this something that does not get bounced around a lot but Kitchener-London is considered the 4th largest TV market in Canada, larger then Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa, Winnipeg and Quebec. And, its outside of the exclusive zones for both the Sabres and Leafs.

And there's also the issue of the Wings who "own" a tip of Ontario per NHL territory.

Are we still holding out hope for that payday? Really?

200 million from ESPN is the rumor...lessen the pressure that is moving teams with a new contract.

$200m is the bandied-about figure http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=902530, but it sounds like that may be the total of cable (multiple) and OTA deals. ESPN is only offering ESPN2 and doubt they'd pay anything close to $200m for solo gig.
 

Valhuen

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Interesting perspectives here to be sure. I think it mainly comes down to this, when will the NHL admit that long-term viability of franchises in Florida, Atlanta, Nashville & Phoenix is not possible? Only then can a frank discussion of relocation begin. The talent pool is far too diluted to support additional expansion IMHO, and I only see smart relocation as an option. As far as Canadian teams long-term, Southern Ontario has been on the radar for as long as I can remember (going back to the early 80's), it could work as a market. Would love to see the NHL back in Quebec City and Winnipeg as well.

Other than that, what US markets could work? Seattle does not have the facility, and I wonder if the interest level is there to support an NHL team long-term. Portland, OR would be a better option IMHO. Kansas City has been making waves about getting a team. I honestly don't know if Hartford could support a new Whale, but it would be nice to see. All I know for sure is, the NHL experiment in the south needs to end, while some franchises have good support due to success (TB and CAR), others won't be getting a significant boost anytime soon, as always....YMMV
 

rojac

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i love how the pseudo intellectuals are calling bs over this study... they have the numbers, where is yours?

What numbers do they have? As much as I don't always care for Damien Cox, his analysis of this report seems pretty spot on. There are many factors that it appears to have ignored.
 

Fugu

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There are still a number of (potentially) really good hockey markets in the US without a team. Houston, Portland, Seattle, Kansas City, etc.

Gary Bettman has signaled that he would not be opposed to a Las Vegas franchise if an arena and owner were to come forward.

I was just in Las Vegas (for 2 days - long enough - before driving up to Zions in Utah). The Vegas economy is in the tank. The city leads the US in foreclosures, but still, there are SEVEN simultaneous Cirque Du Solei shows running in Vegas, at $100 - $200 per ticket, sold out almost every night. On top of that, there is The Lion King (we took our kids and got the last 4 seats at $80/ticket), Phantom of the Opera, Celine, Carlos Santana, Gladys Knight, Barry Manilow and a whole bunch of adult, comedy, dance and variety acts (Penn & Teller, The Blue Man Crew, David Copperfield, Jabbawakiees, etc.). None of these shows really appeal to men aged 25 - 50 who aren't into the "adult" shows. But the sports betting floors of virtually all of the casinos are packed with exactly this demographic. If an arena and owner could be put in place in Las Vegas, the NHL would sell out every night at premium prices. The hotels would buy up the season tickets.

Even with a soft economy, there is no shortage of money in Vegas.
Sheldon Adelson, Donald Trump, Steve Wynn, etc.

Carl Icahn just purchased, for about $150M (less than the price of the land) a bankrupt and abandoned casino/resort project, the Fountainebleau on the strip, which the developers had invested almost $3B in. Icahn's has indicated that he will either hold the property until the economy rebounds and then either flip it or complete it.

I have to disagree with you over your conclusions, as I feel you're missing the point about who is spending money in Vegas and what they're spending it on.

The money in Vegas seems to be coming mainly from visitors, like you and those from not just the US/Canada, but the entire world. It's a "destination" in and of itself (not that I personally have ANY interest in going there, but I'm atypical).

The shows you mention are recognizable brands and names. You can be from Japan, Germany or Argentina and have some idea about Cirque du Soleil, Manilow or Santana (I'd go to that last one).

Once you're there, you will look for things to do in Vegas that you can only do in Vegas, or maybe because you are IN Vegas.

I personally see no correlation whatsoever between the support these brands, artists and activities receive and how an NHL team would do. There would need to be an entire paradigm shift in how you market a pro sports franchise. The money is with the visitors, so you'd have to work in tickets with the package deals and options they know they have. If you're planning a week long visit, you will choose from a cart of options like the shows and performers, along with the time you spend in the casinos. Somewhere in that week, you have to commit to a night of hockey. Then you leave and maybe never come back.

I don't think that's a very good model for a sports franchise. They'd probably always be playing in front of fans from the visitors' cities who figured out they could see the Habs, B's, Wings or Rangers during their trip to the strip.
 

worstfaceoffmanever

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What? They would constantly sell out!

Ever heard of the Los Angeles Clippers?

A hypothetical Maroons team would sell out when they played the Canadiens, or when they were better than the Canadiens, but honestly, the latter club is so ingrained into the culture of the city that I seriously doubt an expansion team would get any traction. They're not going to win converts just because the team is there. It would take at least a generation of Panthers-level attendance before they started winning over new fans, and by then the club would have lost so much money that it wouldn't make the investment worthwhile.
 

Retail1LO*

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I'd like to see an NFL franchise move to Toronto and cut the balls off the NHL

I would LOVE to see that. Truthfully, I think of all sports NOT named the NHL, NFL football would have the greatest likelihood to succeed, despite the existence of the CFL.
 

Fugu

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I dont disagree that the GTA could support 2 franchises with another arena & team in Downsview, but tell me, why should the Leafs stand for that?. Why not then double up in Philly, Chicago, Montreal, Detroit, NYC, Boston?. I find the notion absurd. The one & only place that another team in Southern Ontario makes practicable sense at all is in Hamilton. Just far enough outside of the GTA's boundaries to be able to draw from Mississauga/Oakville west to Kitchener-Waterloo. No, Hamilton does not possess much in the way of local corporate weight, however regionally, there are more than enough firms more than willing to pay big bucks for luxury suites & tickets, combined with a rabid fanbase. They shouldve' been granted admission into the league 20yrs ago. But another team, on top of Hamilton?. Sure. Lets kill the Golden Goose.

Firstly, I'm disappointed no one picked up on that 'brain dead simple' thing I threw out there. Just like poor RR's avatar has gone unnoticed....

I don't believe the Leafs would ever support a second team on "their" turf, but that's not the core issue. What we should ask is if the majority of the league would support it as a sound business decision. In my opinion, when the demand is so out of whack with the supply and you're leaving millions of dollars on the table, that's really the only question that needs to be addressed. The Leafs simply cannot meet the local demand.

Let's turn this around.... What if the NHL allowed an owner the ability to own two teams. Do you think MLSE (or any owner of the Leafs) would opt to "grow the game" and place a second team in Seattle/Houston, etc., or put a second team in Toronto? [game, set, match, btw ;)]


Regarding your comments about doubling up in the other cities, well, if they had overwhelming demand that could not be met by 'one team' then so be it. Problem is that isn't the case. However, we do have 3 teams in the general NYC metro area, and two in metro LA. None of those teams or markets comes close to the Leafs' revenue (NYR at least is in the top five). Let's grow the game some more and move the Devils, Isles, and Ducks to new markets. ;)

We could also add up the franchise values of each team in a given market, their HRR and compare it to the potential value of more teams to complement the Leafs in their territory. How would that look?
 

Hoser

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When the average CFL player makes less money than most AHL players, I find it hard to take it seriously as a professional sports league.

Is the AHL not a professional sports league?

For the record the average salary (and minimum, for that matter) in the CFL is higher than the AHL. Not much, maybe 10% higher, but higher.

And the reason I'd call it a joke is because it has allowed a single owner to own two teams in the league -- something that no respectable league should ever permit.

So does that mean the NHL was not a respectable league in the Original Six era, when James Norris owned the Red Wings, Black Hawks and a controlling stake in Madison Square Garden, making him the de facto owner of the Rangers? :D
 

Retail1LO*

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I think it'd be a riot if Toronto got another team, and it enjoyed success in a very short time frame. I can't imagine what that'd be like for Leaf fans. LOL
 

Ogopogo*

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No its not. Some things are more popular regionally than others.


.

That is irrelevant.

If Canadian products are a joke, you are calling Canada a joke. Why is the CFL inferior to the NFL? Money. Why does the NFL generate so much more money? Much larger population. If a larger population is what makes the NFL so much better than the CFL - to the point you call it a joke - then, that larger population affects everything, no? Everything in the USA must be better than everything in Canada because the bigger population means more money which means better everything.

So, if you call the CFL a joke, you must call Canada a joke as well. Our smaller population makes almost everything Canadian inferior to the US equivalent.

Personally, I love Canada and Canadian things of which the CFL is one. If you choose to call our country a joke, perhaps you should plan to make your exit?
 

Killion

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It would take at least a generation of Panthers-level attendance before they started winning over new fans, and by then the club would have lost so much money that it wouldn't make the investment worthwhile.

In TORONTO proper, you wouldnt be faced with Panther'esque attendance issues, but you would be faced with such a crippling debt that you'd be only paving the way for an eventual sale and the loss of tens of millions. The 2nd owner of team2 might stand a chance, but the first group would be a bust...... Love your avatar btw.....:laugh:
 

Ryan34222

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I personally would like three more teams in Canada; Winnipeg, QC, Hamilton. 6 would be stretching it. I could see a 4th with a 2nd (No kidding there's a team already in Toronto?) team in Toronto.

Other than Winnipeg, what's the largest city in western Canada without a team?
from your lips to Gods ear... although i would add Hamilton would need to get a team before a second team in TO.
 

Man Bear Pig

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With ottawa right between montreal and toronto if you puht a team in oshawa and another one in montreal that means there would be 3 other teams besides the sens with a close drive 2-4 hours.So this could open up a very messy issue would ottawa be fine with it its hard to say maybe but still it could be a risk to ottawa.

Well the Leafs and Sens don't really effect each other, I mean, your talking about all the way across the province. Ottawa is what, 400 or 500km from Toronto? I don't think the NHL would dare put another team close to Ottawa, the team already struggles to draw fans.
 

LeftCoast

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That's things. it was not southern expansion itself but the way it was done. The south has the big 4. Gary should have gone there first. Then Raleigh and Nashville et al. Testing the the larger area could have saved a world of hurt.

I am not opposed to Las Vegas. It would be fun. Not any different from Miami.

IMO - the problem with the expansion was not the plan, but the execution.

Tampa, Atlanta, Miami/Ft. Lauderdale, Dallas, Anaheim, San Jose, Minneapolis and Ottawa are all excellent markets where the NHL should thrive. Carolina, Phoenix and Denver were unplanned, and it appears (IMO) that Phoenix has run its course.

Tampa Bay has had a string of really bad owners. If the Esposito / Kokusai Green group was the best they could do, and the Karmanos / Rutherford group couldn't come up with the expansion fee, they should have delayed the expansion or looked elsewhere.

The Atlanta has had disinterested and fractured owners ever since Ted Turner sold the team.

Sunrise Florida? Seriously? When you are trying to develop a market, it doesn't make sense to make your fans drive out to some retirement village in the boondocks to attend a game. How many movers and shakers from Miami or Ft. Lauderdale are going to impress their clients by driving them over an hour out to shady acres for entertainment? Their attendance grew every year at the (capacity limited) Miami Arena, but has now flat-lined since 1999. A winning product on the ice would no doubt help as well.


Personally, I think that with the 1990's expansions, the NHL should have taken a far more active role in the business, marketing, financing and ownership structure of the new franchises. I also think they could have been more picky about prospective owners and provided expertise in areas such as lease / development negotiations and marketing.
 

Fidel Astro

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Even though it's extremely unlikely that Canada would be granted six more NHL teams, I think the appearance of a piece like this in the news is positive.

The more 'back-to-Canada' type stuff appears in newspapers, TV, magazines and online, the more people jump on board and the more pressure is put on the NHL to do the right thing.

Of course the league doesn't have to listen to public opinion if it doesn't want to, but if a very large percentage of its die-hard fanbase is clamouring for another Canadian team, it would be in the league's best interest not to ignore them.

Anyone, anywhere, talking about more Canadian teams in public is doing good work.
 

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