Prospect Info: Under 25 y/o Sens Players Ranking #14 - Tie Breaker

Who will be the 14th best among Sens players under 25 y/o?


  • Total voters
    46
  • Poll closed .

swiftwin

★SUMMER.OF.PIERRE★
Jul 26, 2005
23,562
12,940
Tierney needs to work on his conditioning/work ethic. Not my kind of player and I think he faded badly due to possibly playing more than he is used to. I am expecting him to be much better next season. He has some good attributes but watching him I found a lot of times lack of consistent effort

I think there was partially a motivation factor. He played more games for us in this tire fire of a season than anybody else. And unlike 90% of the team, he had no contract to play for, or any spot to secure as a rookie. I almost don't blame him for fading as the season progressed, especially after the TDL. The fact that he was still able to get 48 points, while also being 2nd among forwards in PK minutes is nothing to scoff at.
 

SensontheRush

Never said it was Sunshine
Apr 27, 2010
4,725
2,636
Ottawa
It really is ridiculous that players like Balcers are in front of Tierney. That guy is not going to sniff 40 points. Tierney is probably 9,10 on the list. We have underrated our goalie prospects though.
 

swiftwin

★SUMMER.OF.PIERRE★
Jul 26, 2005
23,562
12,940
No, I'm just looking at Tierney for what he is and that is NOT a top-6 forward (like you said). No other team in their right mind will play him as a top-6 forward, unless they want to finish last.

And you clearly didn't read other threads, this has been discussed ad nauseam. It's about TAKING POSITION, which of these players will end up better than Tierney? Even Batherson and Brannstrom are not 100% guaranteed, but yet they still got voted at the top because people took position and are confident they will end up better than Tierney. If you don't believe anybody else will, then sure, you can vote Tierney. But it's the same for ALL prospects, except "blue chippers" no one is guaranteed of anything.

Finally, what are your thoughts on Dorion's work if you believe only 5 will end up better than Tierney? 3 of them were acquired in the Murray era (Chabot, Brown, White), another (Brannstrom) acquired in a trade for a Murray player (Stone) and the last one (Tkachuk) acquired 4th OA because Dorion destroyed Murray's team

So who's your top-5 in front of Tierney (since you said he'd be 6th)??? I'm assuming it's the 5 guys named above.

I mean, Dorion traded Zibanejad, Turris/Duchene, Hoffman, Karlsson, Dzingel, Stone and all he has to show better than Tierney is Erik Brannstrom? That's freaking terrible. I have been very critical of Dorion but certainly not as harsh as many on this board, but you're kind of directing me to that extreme.

EDIT : I'm not a gambler at all but I'd gladly bet that at least 10 guys in the system end up having a better career than Chris Tierney

Chabot, Tkachuk and White are a given
Brannstrom, Batherson and Wolanin very very likely
Brown, JBD and Norris should too, rather easily

That's 9 guys already. Then Formenton, Jaros, Balcers, Duclair, Chlapik, Abramov and several other guys have a chance, some have a good chance.

Still not getting it, are you?

First of all, 48 points is #107 among forwards league-wide. That averages out to 4th best forward on a team. That's absolutely top 6 numbers. Is he a fantastic 2nd line player? Probably not, but he absolutely is an average 2nd line player. That's roughly the same amount of points as guys like Backlund (2nd line for Calgary), Tyler Johnson, Brandon Saad, Eric Staal, Brendan Gallagher, etc. "Oh, well he only got those points because he was on a shit team", you say? Well, no. He was also 4th in points among forwards on San Jose last season too. Again, well within top 6 numbers. To claim otherwise is a flagrant lie in order to twist the truth to fit your narrative.

Second of all, it's simply not fully probability versus potential. It's a combination of both. Yes Batherson and Brannstron are not a 100% guarantee to be better than Tierney, but they are pretty darn close to it, and absolutely should be ranked higher than Tierney. But someone like Abramov has the potential to be better than Tierney, but the probably is so low that Tierney absolutely should be well ahead of Abramov in this ranking.

Seriously, if we end up with 10+ players who are above 4th best scoring forward on the team (or defenseman equivalent), not including the guys we draft in the next two seasons with all the extra picks we got, it would be the greatest rebuild in all of sports history, and we'd have a 4+ cup dynasty on our hands.

edit: for the record, my ranking would be:

1. Chabot
2. Tkachuk
3. Batherson
4. Brannstrom
5. White
6. Tierney
7. Duclair
8. Wolanin
9. Jaros
10. Formenton
 
Last edited:

Benttheknee

Registered User
Jun 18, 2005
3,153
325
Ottawa
I was wondering why Tierny was not voted in. The answer is hope, hope that Tierny, while being an adequate NHLer isn't amongst the best of the Senators under 25 group.

Sorry folks, but he is easily in the top 10. The Senators have traded Turris/Duschene, Karlsson, Hoffman, Stone, Dzingle, 4th pick in 2019 for Brannstrom and a bunch of stuff. Of that bunch of stuff, Chris Thiery is going to be one of the most valuable pieces with only Norris, the Columbus pick the SJ pick as being of similar value.

The rebuild, 2019 version does not have enough talent to match the 2011 rebuild and the result will at best be similar.
 

Xspyrit

DJ Dorion
Jun 29, 2008
30,708
9,651
Montreal, Canada
Still not getting it, are you?

First of all, 48 points is #107 among forwards league-wide. That averages out to 4th best forward on a team. That's absolutely top 6 numbers. Is he a fantastic 2nd line player? Probably not, but he absolutely is an average 2nd line player. That's roughly the same amount of points as guys like Backlund (2nd line for Calgary), Tyler Johnson, Brandon Saad, Eric Staal, Brendan Gallagher, etc. "Oh, well he only got those points because he was on a **** team", you say? Well, no. He was also 4th in points among forwards on San Jose last season too. Again, well within top 6 numbers. To claim otherwise is a flagrant lie in order to twist the truth to fit your narrative.

Second of all, it's simply not fully probability versus potential. It's a combination of both. Yes Batherson and Brannstron are not a 100% guarantee to be better than Tierney, but they are pretty darn close to it, and absolutely should be ranked higher than Tierney. But someone like Abramov has the potential to be better than Tierney, but the probably is so low that Tierney absolutely should be well ahead of Abramov in this ranking.

Seriously, if we end up with 10+ players who are above 4th best scoring forward on the team (or defenseman equivalent), not including the guys we draft in the next two seasons with all the extra picks we got, it would be the greatest rebuild in all of sports history, and we'd have a 4+ cup dynasty on our hands.

edit: for the record, my ranking would be:

1. Chabot
2. Tkachuk
3. Batherson
4. Brannstrom
5. White
6. Tierney
7. Duclair
8. Wolanin
9. Jaros
10. Formenton

Sorry, late response but was super busy. What am I not getting? That Tierney is a top-6 forward and it's a fact? That's where we completely disagree, sorry if "I'm not getting that" by not adopting your opinion...

I know what 48 pts are, and he did well this season, particularly in the first 1/3 of the season but like I have been saying many times, it is contextual. Any team giving top-6 minutes and opportunity to Chris Tierney will be in serious trouble and looking at a basement finish...

Backlund is not the greatest offensive player, but he is a beast defensively and a strong possession player. He brings a lot more to the table than Tierney, and is also a much better skater. Anybody would take Backlund over Tierney without even thinking and the Flames surely wouldn't make the swap unless they were really really tight with the cap. I also take all of Gallagher (30 goal scorer and a pest to play against), Staal (was a high end talent, way more impactful), Johnson, etc before him without hesitating.

I never ever said that "he only got those points because he was on a **** team". Are you sure it's me that is not "getting it"? I said it was contextual. A basement team, particularly one that sold his 5 best players in the same season, will be forced to play many guys out of their depth. I think anybody can see that. Some guys will then get an opportunity they wouldn't otherwise. I mean, it's pretty logic

Anyway, it doesn't seem like you will change your way of thinking here but you will see soon enough that Chris Tierney can't be in the same conversation as those guys you named.

The Sharks had a massive forward depth problem last year. That's why they acquired Evander Kane. They only had Pavelski and Couture as clear cut top-6 forwards and an aging Thornton who only played 47 games (but had 36 Pts). Hertl was on the verge of breaking out and Meier was a pure rookie. Before they acquired Kane, Tierney was 5th in TOI/GP but only had a 0.49 PPG. I mean, it's decent but not top-6 level.

In terms of production, he was 8th in PPG or 7th if you don't include Kane's small sample size... Boedker and Labanc had better production and he was almost tied with Donskoi. I mean, are those guys top-6 players? No, they're all tweeners. Will produce low 2nd line numbers if given the opportunity but ideally on your 3rd line. But one thing important to not, most likely outmatched if playing against the other teams top lines (like that was the case for Tierney in Ottawa and as soon as Stone and Duchene were traded, Tierney really struggled)

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?rep...8&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=pointsPerGame

I'm really not "lying in order to twist the truth to fit your narrative", I'm telling you things exactly like they are. If you want to believe Tierney is a top-6 forward, ok fine, but I really don't agree and it doesn't make me a liar.

Second of all, I never said that it's "simply probability versus potential", never ever once again. But I cannot explain everything in every post, because writing posts here takes some time and time is very precious. If you want to see my explanations, go make a research. This has been addressed multiple times.

And this is also a reason why I have Tierney above guys like Abramov and Hogberg (check my vote in this poll), they're too much of a question mark right now, even if the ability is there. Chlapik joined the same boat for me, he had a good start to this season but faded down the stretch.

But I absolutely have Brown (that you forgot in your list, unless you think he's a straight up bust), Norris, JBD and Wolanin becoming better NHL players than Chris Tierney.

For Duclair it was harder but he might have finally turned the corner with some maturity growth. He has so much more talent than Tierney. For Balcers and Formenton it's closer but I think they will because of speed, shot and skill, notably. Tierney is poor skater and has a muffin of a shot. Very good hockey sense and decent playmaking abilities, possibly the only 2 things that keeps him in the NHL. So Tierney is a good benchmark to evaluate players because he is the average of the average. lol

I'm saying that those 9 guys : Chabot, Tkachuk, Batherson, Brannstrom, Brown, White, Wolanin, JBD and Norris will all have better NHL careers than Tierney.

That is my position and I certainly have the balls to take that position. Worse case scenario, I was wrong who f***ing cares?

I extend on saying that I'm at least half confident that Duclair, Balcers, Jaros and Formenton will end up better. Could be others as well but I'm not making that claim right now.

Finally, as I have already said, it shouldn't be surprising to have 10 players better than Tierney. Chabot, Brown and White were already in the pool, Tkachuk just got drafted because Dorion's team sucked last year plus he got a steal in the draft in Batherson. That's already 5 guys and he traded in the recent past all of Erik Karlsson, Matt Duchene, Derick Brassard (formerly for Zibanejad), Ryan Dzingel, Mike Hoffman and Mark Stone. I mean, I hope there's good young players in the system lol

If it wasn't the case, Dorion would be an even bigger failure as a GM as this board is already painting. If Tierney is the best piece in the Karlsson deal, I would drive myself to Ottawa to kick him in the nuts.
 
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Xspyrit

DJ Dorion
Jun 29, 2008
30,708
9,651
Montreal, Canada
It really is ridiculous that players like Balcers are in front of Tierney. That guy is not going to sniff 40 points. Tierney is probably 9,10 on the list. We have underrated our goalie prospects though.

Balcers had 14 pts in 36 games in his (partial) rookie season, which is 32 pts over 82 games and he did that with 12:21 TOI/GP (bottom-6 minutes). It's already not that far off 40 points. Then how come you can say he "is not going to sniff 40 points"? It's possible that you believe he won't get a full season chance in the NHL but based on this small sample chance, it's not a super stretch saying he could reach 40 pts.

I was wondering why Tierny was not voted in. The answer is hope, hope that Tierny, while being an adequate NHLer isn't amongst the best of the Senators under 25 group.

Sorry folks, but he is easily in the top 10. The Senators have traded Turris/Duschene, Karlsson, Hoffman, Stone, Dzingle, 4th pick in 2019 for Brannstrom and a bunch of stuff. Of that bunch of stuff, Chris Thiery is going to be one of the most valuable pieces with only Norris, the Columbus pick the SJ pick as being of similar value.

The rebuild, 2019 version does not have enough talent to match the 2011 rebuild and the result will at best be similar.

Read the other threads/posts. In summary :

Chabot, Brown, White : Already in the pool
Tkachuk : drafted 4th OA because team sucked last year
Batherson : draft steal

That's already 5 guys and he traded in the recent past all of Erik Karlsson, Matt Duchene, Derick Brassard (formerly for Zibanejad), Ryan Dzingel, Mike Hoffman and Mark Stone

Based on all that, we should absolutely have 10 guys better than Chris Tierney.

If you say "he is easily in the top 10", please post your top-10/15 so we'll have it to check back later (maybe even as soon as next year)

So far, the consensus of posters have voted Tierney at 14th. We'll see where people were wrong soon enough.
 
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Benttheknee

Registered User
Jun 18, 2005
3,153
325
Ottawa
Currently voted top 10

1- Thomas Chabot (D) 91.7%
2- Brady Tkachuk (LW) 37.3%
3- Erik Brännström (D) 70.8%
4- Drake Batherson (RW) 70.8%

5- Colin White (C/RW) 48.1 %
6- Logan Brown (C) 67.4%
7- Christian Wolanin (D) 61.2% (Tie-Breaker)
8- Jacob Bernard-Docker (D) 40.6%
9- Josh Norris (C) 34.1%
10- Alex Formenton (LW) 28.8%

Tierny can compete favourably with Brown, JBD, Norris and Formenton.

Brown to me is too slow and too injury prone. We are lucky if he can be a regular 2nd line center, JBD is 2-3 years away from the NHL, Norris should be a similar level talent to Tierny and Formenton looks like a guy that will play for years in the NHL but will never be a go to guy.

They I apply the old adage, one in hand is worth two in the bush and that is why he ranks higher than 14.

"Based on all that, we should absolutely have 10 guys better than Chris Tierney."

Well sure, but Hoffman for Boedker? Duschene for #19, perhaps far lower depending on the Jackets playoff run? Karlsson for a bunch of decent stuff? Those were atrocious trades. So he should have done better, but the reality is that the Sens return was Brannstrom and a pile of middle and bottom half of and NHL team level talent.

As I said, the 2011 rebuild had far better talent and it didn't fare well. This rebuild will follow the same path topping out as a mediocre SC playoff team, but that is just my opinion of course.
 

Sensmileletsgo

Registered User
Oct 22, 2018
5,100
4,307
Tiereny will go on to have a much better professional career then the majority of these players. Tough to vote highly for him because at the age of 24 years old he's shown he's a decent player but not a great one. As some others have mentioned he's got some good attributes, hopefully he takes another step forward next year. He needs to if he wants to go from being a mediocre player to a solid one.
 

HSF

Registered User
Sep 3, 2008
26,058
7,601
It really is ridiculous that players like Balcers are in front of Tierney. That guy is not going to sniff 40 points. Tierney is probably 9,10 on the list. We have underrated our goalie prospects though.
the list is flawed cause some people vote on potential and some people vote on what they have done so far.

If we are going by potential then Brown should be ahead of White if not then a guy like Duclair should be above Balcers for what he has done so far and with his potential
 

Sens of Anarchy

Registered User
Jul 9, 2013
65,008
49,542
the list is flawed cause some people vote on potential and some people vote on what they have done so far.

If we are going by potential then Brown should be ahead of White if not then a guy like Duclair should be above Balcers for what he has done so far and with his potential
There is upside and likelihood to reach upside as well. A player could have higher upside than another but have more ifs attached. That can effect how they are rated. Plus personal preferences , and how different people value different aspects ... not many absolutes when ranking the players across many opinions. I do not take these polls very seriously there are so many factors that would cause someone to vote one way or another. The results are what they are .. no conclusions that you can take to the bank can be drawn from them. Entertainment value only. I am particularly entertained when someone rants about a player not being picked ahead of others.
 

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