Prospect Info: Under 25 y/o Sens Players Ranking #11 - Tie Breaker

[Xspyrit]

Well I guess you need to watch more of the games by the sounds of it to me. You even admitted to not watching the player much and followed to give an innacurate scouting report. Being above average from a hockey sense perspective at 24 years old is pretty damn good. Means he is a very versitile player that can play in any situation. Wing, center, pk, pp he has done it all this year. That is a usefull player, he has been excellent on the pk in the second half and he is over 50% in the faceoff dot which he likely improves at so he doesnt hurt you in that regard. He also has playoff experience and got to be in a locker room with proven pros in San Jose. He is a good player to have around his teamates and by all accounts is very well liked.

If you think its a comparable situation to Boro Smith and Ceci then I think ill have to go back to my first point. You need to watch him more.

I understand that the poll is not who is the most proven player at the NHL level. Its who I think will be the best, I dont see Balcers being a regular NHL player. He is not strong from a defensive stand point, he loses lots of puck battles and hasnt shown me elite top 6 offensive talent. Thats what he is, either a top 6 player or he likely isnt going to stick in an NHL lineup. So for me this was a very easy decision Tierney is a versitile effective player that can play against other teams better players. The sens have very few of these types at this point.

I said that I didn't watch all Sens hockey this year (for Melnyk reasons) but I still did watch enough to have some scouting reports. That being said, where did I "admitted to not watching the player much"? Are we talking about Tierney? I have watched enough of his NHL shifts to know how he skates, handles the puck, shoots and is positioned on the ice, as well as his general competitiveness. And Tierney is not brand new in the NHL, he played 284 games with the Sharks plus 40 in the playoffs. I knew who he was before the trade.

The fact that Tierney has an above average hockey sense is probably the only reason why he plays in the NHL. It's a pretty good thing like you said and it allows him to be more than a depth player but the rest of his skillset being very average also limits his impact. The fact that he has done things this year on THIS team doesn't mean he would have had the opportunity to do it on other teams, example what would be his role on the Lightning? Would he even make the team? This year is very contextual as the Sens traded (well, sold for futures) their best established talent (Hoffman, Karlsson, Stone, Duchene and Dzingel), the ice-time, role and opportunity he got is not something that you will see every year.

Last year on the Sharks, he played mostly with Boedker, Hansen, Donskoi, M.Karlsson, Meier and Labanc (the last 2 being players with very limited experience). This year he played with Stone, Ryan, Boedker, Tkachuk and Balcers. His PP TOI went from 0:59 to 1:42 per game even though he has only 2 PPP. In 2017-18 with the Sharks he was put more in an offensive role than the 2 years prior which is why he reached 40 pts, as he had 20 and 23 pts the 2 seasons before. This year, he has been a little bit more productive.

I'm not saying Tierney is a BAD player, I'm saying he's an average player (I said ideally your 8th/9th best forward) which is still valuable. To me, he's a player on Pageau/Kelly level, maybe a tad better offensively thanks to passing and vision/hockey sense but really not as good defensively. Look at his relative advanced stats too, not very good.

The point about Boro Smith and Ceci is that YOU said "Tierney has essentially already done that and has the trust of the management group and his coachs", nothing else. I never came close to compare the players or anything. It was related to that comment and should have been pretty clear as I highlighted that part. The fact that any player has earned trust from coaching and management means nothing in the sense that pretty much everyone on this board bash them non-stop.

All that being said, I understand if you vote him over Balcers, you have reasons to not be high on him. But the whole point of the debate wasn't that. It comes from previous threads, that many were voting Tierney because "proven" (which is wrong) or are just not high on the rest (which is understandable)

It doesn't mean I'm entirely sold on Balcers, but I don't think his "likelihood of reaching potential" is low enough to not have him over Tierney. Balcers is still 21 y/o in his 2nd pro season, Tierney is in his 5th pro season, he is much farther developed so that's something you also have to consider.

I want to build a good team, so I don't think Tierney should be anywhere close the top-6. He should be on the 3rd line max, so now it's a question of would you rather have him or Pageau as the 3rd line center?

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

Its just another example of your ability to evaluate NHL hockey players.

In that, I'm correct? Bobby Ryan is barely a NHL player at this point. He has 2 goals and 7 points in his last 20 games and is a -13... and he's a forward who's value comes from scoring. Are his tiny hands still the culprit here?

 

[bert]

In that, I'm correct? Bobby Ryan is barely a NHL player at this point. He has 2 goals and 7 points in his last 20 games and is a -13... and he's a forward who's value comes from scoring. Are his tiny hands still the culprit here?

There is that cherry picking again! Well done as predictable as time its self.

He has 40 points in 74 games which puts him 4th on the team in scoring and 150th in the world. Roughly 750 players have played NHL games this season. He also has 545 points in 805 games. Please tell me again this is not an NHL hockey player.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

There is that cherry picking again! Well done as predictable as time its self.

He has 40 points in 74 games which puts him 4th on the team in scoring and 150th in the world. Roughly 750 players have played NHL games this season. He also has 545 points in 805 games. Please tell me again this is not an NHL hockey player.

Is Bobby Ryan a player you want on your NHL team? He averages more PP ice time than any player currently on this roster who's not named Thomas Chabot. And he's got 40 points in one of the highest scoring seasons in recent memory. Once Stone, Duchene and Dzingel were gone, his offense predictably dried up.

This is a player who's long past his expiration date. I'm 100% right about Ryan and everyone knows it. He doesnt belong in this league. There are literally hundreds of players me or any hockey fan would rather have on their team and could do better with the opportunity.

Btw, I don't think you understand what the term cherry picking means.

 

[FormentonTheFuture]

Is Bobby Ryan a player you want on your NHL team? He averages more PP ice time than any player currently on this roster who's not named Thomas Chabot. And he's got 40 points in one of the highest scoring seasons in recent memory. Once Stone, Duchene and Dzingel were gone, his offense predictably dried up.

This is a player who's long past his expiration date. I'm 100% right about Ryan and everyone knows it. He doesnt belong in this league. There are literally hundreds of players me or any hockey fan would rather have on their team and could do better with the opportunity.

Btw, I don't think you understand what the term cherry picking means.

I disagree with this completely and would argue that most people would feel the same way. He doesn't belong at 7 million, but there's no way a 40 point player doesn't belong in the league. I would happily take him on my team at 3-4 million.

 

[bert]

I disagree with this completely and would argue that most people would feel the same way. He doesn't belong at 7 million, but there's no way a 40 point player doesn't belong in the league. I would happily take him on my team at 3-4 million.

You are stupid if you dont agree with him! Dont forget that. 150th in a 750 player league but he doesnt belong! FQL knows ok, he know more than three NHL head coachs about Tierney and he knows Bobby Ryan is not an NHL player.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

I disagree with this completely and would argue that most people would feel the same way. He doesn't belong at 7 million, but there's no way a 40 point player doesn't belong in the league. I would happily take him on my team at 3-4 million.

He's a 40 point player getting sheltered and the most PP time of any forward on his team. How many teams in the league do you think he's getting 2:21 of PP time per game to get him there? How many of those are competitive teams?

Hint: the answer is one, and zero.

 

[FormentonTheFuture]

He's a 40 point player getting sheltered and the most PP time of any forward on his team. How many teams in the league do you think he's getting 2:21 of PP time per game to get him there? How many of those are competitive teams?

Hint: the answer is one, and zero.

This doesn't change my opinion. He's an NHL player.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

This doesn't change my opinion. He's an NHL player.

An amazing accomplishment.

"Bobby Ryan is a NHL player" - FormentontheFuture. From the disabled person hating mind that doesn't think Ottawa could use Anthony Mantha or Zibanejad.

 

[FormentonTheFuture]

An amazing accomplishment.

"Bobby Ryan is a NHL player" - FormentontheFuture. From the disabled person hating mind that doesn't think Ottawa could use Anthony Mantha or Zibanejad.

I'm not attacking you here; we all have opinions. I just don't see how Ryan isn't an NHL player. Let's agree to disagree.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

I'm not attacking you here; we all have opinions. I just don't see how Ryan isn't an NHL player. Let's agree to disagree.

Bobby Ryan is a NHL player like Zack Smith, Mark Borowiecki and Mikkael Boedker are NHL players.

 

[bert]

Bobby Ryan is a NHL player like Zack Smith, Mark Borowiecki and Mikkael Boedker are NHL players.

Its really not the same thing no, but go on you are on a hot streak!

An amazing accomplishment.

"Bobby Ryan is a NHL player" - FormentontheFuture. From the disabled person hating mind that doesn't think Ottawa could use Anthony Mantha or Zibanejad.

What is the bolded portion about?.... Sounds pretty hateful.

 

[FormentonTheFuture]

Its really not the same thing no, but go on you are on a hot streak!



What is the bolded portion about?.... Sounds pretty hateful.

I believe I made a stupid comment about the Capital Condors once last year. It was very dumb of me and I apologize.

 

[Xspyrit]

Is Bobby Ryan a player you want on your NHL team? He averages more PP ice time than any player currently on this roster who's not named Thomas Chabot. And he's got 40 points in one of the highest scoring seasons in recent memory. Once Stone, Duchene and Dzingel were gone, his offense predictably dried up.

This is a player who's long past his expiration date. I'm 100% right about Ryan and everyone knows it. He doesnt belong in this league. There are literally hundreds of players me or any hockey fan would rather have on their team and could do better with the opportunity.

Btw, I don't think you understand what the term cherry picking means.

"Your takes are consistently inaccurate and this thread is a terrific example of it."

- Bert

I was not agreeing with Bert on the Tierney subject and it looks like we were on the same side of that debate but he's right that your takes are ridiculous. Why always need to go so far in the hyperbole ("trash", "not a NHL player", "bad" etc). It makes it hard to give any credibility to your takes...

Now let's look at some of those takes :

- "This is a player who's long past his expiration date"

Well, he had a Conn Smythe worthy showing in the playoffs just 2 years ago. And since then, he has a 0.54 PPG (142th out of 367 forwards who played at least 82 games) which is not extraordinary but he has been posting that mostly from the Sens 3rd line, a team that was coached by Guy Boucher and has been the worst team in that period of time

All of Stone, Turris/Duchene, Hoffman, Brassard, Tierney, Pageau, Dzingel and Smith had more TOI/GP than Ryan

Yes he's been receiving more PP TOI/GP this year but there's literally 125 NHL forwards who averaged more so it's not like it was an incredible amount of time. He's 66th in PP Points though so it looks like he did fine when given the opportunity.

- "There are literally hundreds of players me or any hockey fan would rather have on their team and could do better with the opportunity."

What opportunity are we talking about? It doesn't look like he got such an incredible opportunity to put up points based on linemates and TOI. Also, his offensive zone starts have been way down compared to before, to a more even split 50/50

- "Once Stone, Duchene and Dzingel were gone, his offense predictably dried up."

Duh, of course his production was going to drop, as he is a skilled player who needs to play with skilled players. So since February 21st when the team started to sit their 3 best forwards, he has 5 points in 18 games and is -9, but outside of Gibbons (12 pts in 15 games, but also same age as Ryan and almost 500 NHL points less), Tkachuk (10 pts in 18 games) and Duclair (10 pts in 16 games), no one else has really produced, a few players with 6-7 points. Chabot with -15, Pageau with -12, White -11, DeMelo -11, Tierney -11, Boedker -9, Tkachuk -9... Does that mean they are all non NHLers?

Gosh do you even know what context is?

Looking at Ryan line production stats, it's pretty easy to see that he has been producing more with skilled players so it's a bit logic that he produces less with less talent.

Line Production - Frozen Tools

- "Btw, I don't think you understand what the term cherry picking means."

Wasn't Bert saying you were cherry picking based on that comment in the post he quoted "He has 2 goals and 7 points in his last 20 games and is a -13"

If that's not cherry picking stats then what is it?

He's a 40 point player getting sheltered and the most PP time of any forward on his team. How many teams in the league do you think he's getting 2:21 of PP time per game to get him there? How many of those are competitive teams?

Hint: the answer is one, and zero.

Getting sheltered? By what metric? oZS% and dZS% are pretty even

And I already talked about PP time above. Also, watching the game reveals that Ryan makes a lot of good plays that would get him opportunities on most teams. If you think that every team has 12 best forwards than Ryan (even if not in his prime anymore), then maybe it's better for anybody (that is just not a stupid Ryan hater) to just ignore what you're saying.