UNB ordered to reinstate women's hockey

UNB Bruins Fan

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Mar 11, 2008
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I wonder if they are going to reinstate the other teams that got cut as well...was that not discrimination as well?? Everyone seems to forget that the teams that got cut affected more men than women...so I don't know how they could argue that the decision to cut those teams was discriminatory based on sex....unless those other sports aren't as important for some reason??

Look, I am glad they are getting their team back and wish it wasn't cut in the first place...but the whole case was, and continues to be, ridiculous to me. When other schools cut sports does it turn into this big of a deal??
 

scRIbe

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Sep 2, 2014
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I wonder if they are going to reinstate the other teams that got cut as well...was that not discrimination as well?? Everyone seems to forget that the teams that got cut affected more men than women...so I don't know how they could argue that the decision to cut those teams was discriminatory based on sex....unless those other sports aren't as important for some reason??

Look, I am glad they are getting their team back and wish it wasn't cut in the first place...but the whole case was, and continues to be, ridiculous to me. When other schools cut sports does it turn into this big of a deal??

Eight years? Goodness gracious.

Just out of curiosity, does Canada have any sort of equivalent of Title IX, which we have here in the U.S.?
 

STUTOMMIES

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Jul 23, 2008
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Eight years? Goodness gracious.

Just out of curiosity, does Canada have any sort of equivalent of Title IX, which we have here in the U.S.?

No Title 9 in Canada. That is part of the issue that UNB fans really don't like to discuss, hockey in Canada is king but it certainly isn't queen. They argue that men's jai-alai and croquet were cancelled so all is equal. Sorry, it is not. Because women's hockey doesn't have 100 years of history in Fredericton it makes sense to cancel it..no it needs help and it needs to be fostered, not cut.
 

BigMac1212

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I think women's sports teams fans in Canada should pressure Parliament in Ottawa to get some sort of Title IX equivalent into effect. Hopefully, things should be the same on both sides of the border. Yes, money is a issue, but women should have the same opportunity in Canada like they do in America.
 

Rants Mulliniks

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No Title 9 in Canada. That is part of the issue that UNB fans really don't like to discuss, hockey in Canada is king but it certainly isn't queen. They argue that men's jai-alai and croquet were cancelled so all is equal. Sorry, it is not. Because women's hockey doesn't have 100 years of history in Fredericton it makes sense to cancel it..no it needs help and it needs to be fostered, not cut.

Why?

Does every sport need to be male and female?

If you actually want equality, wouldn't you simply allow women to try out for the men's team?

It's kind of like how New Brunswick tries to "equally" promote two languages.
 

Hollywood3

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I think women's sports teams fans in Canada should pressure Parliament in Ottawa to get some sort of Title IX equivalent into effect. Hopefully, things should be the same on both sides of the border. Yes, money is a issue, but women should have the same opportunity in Canada like they do in America.
No. If they want equality have more non-athletic scholarships. Because of the fact that fewer females play sports they could have true equality with a quarter of the athletes.
 

SuperSquirrel

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Aug 28, 2008
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No Title 9 in Canada. That is part of the issue that UNB fans really don't like to discuss, hockey in Canada is king but it certainly isn't queen. They argue that men's jai-alai and croquet were cancelled so all is equal. Sorry, it is not. Because women's hockey doesn't have 100 years of history in Fredericton it makes sense to cancel it..no it needs help and it needs to be fostered, not cut.

I wonder if a similar suit will be filed if the STU men's hockey program is cut?
 
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Rob

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A similar suit wasn't filed when Mount A cut the Men's team. :shakehead

Anyway this is good news for the girls on the Red Blazers. This is bad news for other athletes who might see their programs cut in order to pay for the women's program.
 

radapex

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Sep 21, 2012
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If you actually want equality, wouldn't you simply allow women to try out for the men's team?

And what about men who might be interested to play rugby? Would they be allowed to try out for UNB's women's rugby team since there's no men's team?

Does this ruling mean that Mount Allison will have to reinstate the men's hockey program that they cut because they kept the women's hockey program?
 

Rants Mulliniks

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Jun 22, 2008
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And what about men who might be interested to play rugby? Would they be allowed to try out for UNB's women's rugby team since there's no men's team?

Who knows? I just always hate when I see things sold as "equality" when they really aren't.

Earlier STUTommies said; " it needs help and it needs to be fostered, not cut". My first question would be "Why?" followed by "To what end?" and "At what or whose expense"?

I have many years of university, some of which was at UNB. My brother in law captained the Tommies. One thing I know is that fees get passed on to students. So please explain to me, if I was a student, why I should pay more so 20 people can play a non-profitable sport at a varsity level. What do I get out of it? Why do they need to play varsity? What does it achieve? Why should I have to add to my $50,000 in debt for 20 people to chase a rubber disk while I am chasing an education and a life? UNB once had a question they asked their student body: "would you be willing to pay $10 extra on your tuition to allow UNB to bring back the Red Bombers football team"? The answer was a resounding "no" and the team was never brought back. If students overwhelmingly won't cough up $10, why should they be forced to pay for this?
 

radapex

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Sep 21, 2012
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Who knows? I just always hate when I see things sold as "equality" when they really aren't.

Earlier STUTommies said; " it needs help and it needs to be fostered, not cut". My first question would be "Why?" followed by "To what end?" and "At what or whose expense"?

I have many years of university, some of which was at UNB. My brother in law captained the Tommies. One thing I know is that fees get passed on to students. So please explain to me, if I was a student, why I should pay more so 20 people can play a non-profitable sport at a varsity level. What do I get out of it? Why do they need to play varsity? What does it achieve? Why should I have to add to my $50,000 in debt for 20 people to chase a rubber disk while I am chasing an education and a life? UNB once had a question they asked their student body: "would you be willing to pay $10 extra on your tuition to allow UNB to bring back the Red Bombers football team"? The answer was a resounding "no" and the team was never brought back. If students overwhelmingly won't cough up $10, why should they be forced to pay for this?

I agree. And, I mean, there's profitable and there's "profitable". Even if UNB's men's hockey team doesn't directly turn a profit, it's still beneficial to the school. Having a nationally ranked program brings exposure to the school. Tune into the CIS championships on Sportsnet in a few week, and you'll see the UNB team out there in their red and black. It's a selling point.

It's like the reason many people question how the Tommies' men's team can keep going. They only win a few games a year, they get no attendance... at some point, STU has to look at it and go "why are we sinking money into this program?"
 

Rants Mulliniks

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Jun 22, 2008
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I agree. And, I mean, there's profitable and there's "profitable". Even if UNB's men's hockey team doesn't directly turn a profit, it's still beneficial to the school. Having a nationally ranked program brings exposure to the school. Tune into the CIS championships on Sportsnet in a few week, and you'll see the UNB team out there in their red and black. It's a selling point.

It's like the reason many people question how the Tommies' men's team can keep going. They only win a few games a year, they get no attendance... at some point, STU has to look at it and go "why are we sinking money into this program?"

Indeed. Hockey is super expensive but as you pointed out it's probably one of the biggest things you associate with the school, mainly because for close to 20 years there is really only one other school that can compare to them nationally.
 

Rants Mulliniks

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One of the arguments made was

""The popularity of the team was undercut by a lack of funding," argued Letson in support of Bryson."

The elephant in the room would be the popularity is low because the caliber is low. I'm not arguing that to be mean. You could sink $500,000 into it and the caliber will remain similar to several other local Fredericton area teams and nowhere near that of the men's team.
 

UNB Bruins Fan

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They argue that men's jai-alai and croquet were cancelled so all is equal. Sorry, it is not.

It was actually men's swimming.

Why is women's hockey more important than men's swimming? Or cross-country or rugby, which also got cut?

I bet if it was, say, women's volleyball that got cut instead of hockey no one would bat an eye at it.
 

UNB Bruins Fan

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Who knows? I just always hate when I see things sold as "equality" when they really aren't.

Earlier STUTommies said; " it needs help and it needs to be fostered, not cut". My first question would be "Why?" followed by "To what end?" and "At what or whose expense"?

I have many years of university, some of which was at UNB. My brother in law captained the Tommies. One thing I know is that fees get passed on to students. So please explain to me, if I was a student, why I should pay more so 20 people can play a non-profitable sport at a varsity level. What do I get out of it? Why do they need to play varsity? What does it achieve? Why should I have to add to my $50,000 in debt for 20 people to chase a rubber disk while I am chasing an education and a life? UNB once had a question they asked their student body: "would you be willing to pay $10 extra on your tuition to allow UNB to bring back the Red Bombers football team"? The answer was a resounding "no" and the team was never brought back. If students overwhelmingly won't cough up $10, why should they be forced to pay for this?

Exactly...it makes absolutely no business sense to continually make a significant investment on something that brings almost zero return, especially in such tough economic times. I wish UNB had both a men's and women's team for every CIS sport, but at the end of the day you still have to make sure it makes financial sense.

I am also wondering, are they going to bring back a men's team to make up for this?

Tommies coach Peter Murphy gets it (from the Gleaner) - "I'm just surprised because of the dollar figures that are going to be involved. My response from UNB, I would guess, is 'Tell me which team you want me to take the money from' because I don't think it's an endless pot anywhere."

I don't think you can argue that UNB's decision to cut those teams was necessarily a bad one...by focusing their resources on fewer teams we have seen most of those teams achieve more success in recent years. I fear we will be going back to the days when most of UNB's teams weren't that great. Personally, I would much rather have 8 above average teams than having a good men's hockey team + 10 average to mediocre teams because the money gets spread so thin.
 
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STUTOMMIES

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Do you guys really think that after spending close to a million dollars (hearsay) fighting this human rights complaint that UNB didn't argue at least some of the points you raise above?? I am sure they did and they lost. Just because our little back woods minds can't comprehend the concept of human rights doesn't mean that they shouldn't be observed. You have justified your arguments to your own satisfaction and good for you. I do the same thing sometimes.

It would hurt if STU cut men's hockey but we all know that it wouldn't be cut because it was men playing hockey. Pretty sure this ruling tells us that UNB cut women's hockey because women were playing it.
 

jason2020

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Sep 24, 2014
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I think women's sports teams fans in Canada should pressure Parliament in Ottawa to get some sort of Title IX equivalent into effect. Hopefully, things should be the same on both sides of the border. Yes, money is a issue, but women should have the same opportunity in Canada like they do in America.

I think the feds would feel uneasy doing something like that.
 

jason2020

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Sep 24, 2014
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Do you guys really think that after spending close to a million dollars (hearsay) fighting this human rights complaint that UNB didn't argue at least some of the points you raise above?? I am sure they did and they lost. Just because our little back woods minds can't comprehend the concept of human rights doesn't mean that they shouldn't be observed. You have justified your arguments to your own satisfaction and good for you. I do the same thing sometimes.

It would hurt if STU cut men's hockey but we all know that it wouldn't be cut because it was men playing hockey. Pretty sure this ruling tells us that UNB cut women's hockey because women were playing it.

I would not read to much into them fighting human rights its as a rule its not what we think.
 

Rants Mulliniks

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Jun 22, 2008
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Do you guys really think that after spending close to a million dollars (hearsay) fighting this human rights complaint that UNB didn't argue at least some of the points you raise above?? I am sure they did and they lost. Just because our little back woods minds can't comprehend the concept of human rights doesn't mean that they shouldn't be observed. You have justified your arguments to your own satisfaction and good for you. I do the same thing sometimes.

It would hurt if STU cut men's hockey but we all know that it wouldn't be cut because it was men playing hockey. Pretty sure this ruling tells us that UNB cut women's hockey because women were playing it.

I would argue that your assumption that we have "little back woods minds" probably says a lot about your own position.

You do realize that stating you have to carry a team BECAUSE of what exists between your legs is every bit as sexist as that which is being claimed to be sexist, right? It's kind of like Oprah claiming to be against racism then putting all her weight behind someone BECAUSE of their race. No matter how you slice it, that's racist.

I also find it interesting that you never really bothered to address any of the questions. I asked very specific questions related to your statements and you offered no rebuttal.
 
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Rants Mulliniks

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I would not read to much into them fighting human rights its as a rule its not what we think.

Human rights are moral principles or norms, that describe certain standards of human behavior, and are regularly protected as legal rights in municipal and international law. They are commonly understood as inalienable fundamental rights "to which a person is inherently entitled simply because she or he is a human being".

So what was trampled on by the original decision? The person pushing the claim stated: "The popularity of the team was undercut by a lack of funding," argued Letson in support of Bryson. The reality is it is the most expensive sport you can play and its popularity is proportional to its quality. I'd bet my next 10 year's salary that if the women's team had a run like the men's team has for 20 years, it still wouldn't draw close to the men's. Why? Quality. No matter how much money you sink in, the caliber of play will never be close. What's the "right" or "inherent entitlement" here? Again, if equality is the concern, there is a varsity team, you just have to be good enough to make it. If you aren't, well you don't play varsity.
 

jason2020

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Sep 24, 2014
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Human rights are moral principles or norms, that describe certain standards of human behavior, and are regularly protected as legal rights in municipal and international law. They are commonly understood as inalienable fundamental rights "to which a person is inherently entitled simply because she or he is a human being".

So what was trampled on by the original decision? The person pushing the claim stated: "The popularity of the team was undercut by a lack of funding," argued Letson in support of Bryson. The reality is it is the most expensive sport you can play and its popularity is proportional to its quality. I'd bet my next 10 year's salary that if the women's team had a run like the men's team has for 20 years, it still wouldn't draw close to the men's. Why? Quality. No matter how much money you sink in, the caliber of play will never be close. What's the "right" or "inherent entitlement" here? Again, if equality is the concern, there is a varsity team, you just have to be good enough to make it. If you aren't, well you don't play varsity.

In Canada the human rights courts while do get some legit cases but many are not and in fact many cases are not even a human right issues per the un.
 

STUTOMMIES

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Jul 23, 2008
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One of the arguments made was

""The popularity of the team was undercut by a lack of funding," argued Letson in support of Bryson."

The elephant in the room would be the popularity is low because the caliber is low. I'm not arguing that to be mean. You could sink $500,000 into it and the caliber will remain similar to several other local Fredericton area teams and nowhere near that of the men's team.

OK, I will jump into your rabbit hole.

If caliber is the issue then every CIS women's hockey team should be cut. If it is a matter of self funding then every CIS women's hockey team should be cut and most likely a lot of other men's and women's CIS sports as well. University sports as a whole in this country simply do not make money. They cost money, some more than others. Hockey is an expensive sport, most CIS men's hockey teams don't make money, cut them. Simple. Then the 5 teams in the country that make money can play each other until we get bored of it and we can cut them too.

It's amateur sports, not pro, not semi-pro, no pro at all. Amateur.

As to the caliber you speak of, it wasn't all that long ago that women couldn't play (frowned upon, whatever) hockey because it was a "mans" sport. Sounds equal to me but further to make my point, the men have over 100 years of playing. Women, maybe 30 years give or take. The AUS didn't have a women's league until the early 2000's. Rome was not built in a day and neither was or will women's hockey.

Also, male hockey players are developed from a young age, the good ones segregated to get better, money thrown into their programs for development all because male sport is better caliber. Well it darn well should be because that is the way it has always been. I highly doubt that they will regress anytime soon. Meanwhile the women get second or third rate training after 12 years old, less opportunity, and funding then get asked why aren't you as good as the boys? Geez, I don't know?

It is a systemic problem, we aren't going to solve it on this board and I am not going to change your mind as to how you think. I am fine with that. My opinion is that women's hockey (specifically hockey because I love the sport) needs to be fostered, developed, and funded. You ask most female hockey players in the CIS and they will tell you this is their NHL because most of them (90% or more) will never be able/skilled/allowed/capable/accepted to play any higher because they are female.

There, I wrote a few things that I feel. I hope some of you readers think about the issue more. It isn't just about money or hockey talent. Those aren't the only issues here.

"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."

Pastor Martin Niemöller
 

Rob

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Feb 27, 2002
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"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."

Pastor Martin Niemöller

Hyperbole much?
 

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