Ultimate Contraction: Small Market Teams should just fold

[txpd]

It's also worth mentioning that an 8-14 team NHL would be invisible in the national media. There would not be a national contract, because not enough of the nation had local interest in the product. If you dumped down to as many as 14 teams, hockey would not be present in 11 of the top 20 USA media markets. Assuming Toronto, Montreal, Ottawa and Vancouver survive as part of the 14 team league, that leaves only 10 USA Markets.

The sport would be lucky to get a Direct TV package to sell. It would become a local market sport.

Under those circumstances I don't think any of those teams could afford a $50m payroll anymore.

 

[Slats432]

Not sure where you got your numbers from, but last season Phoenix lost over $20M according to the Coyotes and Wayne, yet you list them as $7.8? Philadelphia lose money? Not likely.

http://www.forbes.com/lists/results...ory1=category&category2=category&passKeyword=

As for the Flyers...Ed Snyder as well as Comcast have indicated that they lost money last season. Now I find that tough to believe myself, but going by facts/reports, I don't have any choice but to believe it to be true unless I get information to the contrary.

http://www.cfo.com/article.cfm/3217475?f=archives

 

[txpd]

I think that based on just how overstaffed last year's flyer's roster was at times and some of the hideous contracts that they are paying, I am not surprised that they lost money. Same with Detroit. The Wings got stuck with both Hasek and Cujo and that alone could put even them in the red. The Flyers were paying Burke a $4m annual rate salary to sit on the bench behind Esche who they didn't trust til they were stuck with Burke.

A team like the Flyers is never going to take a chance on an unproven player without a proven plan b. sometimes that proven plan b is an expensive asset that is never used. with injuries the Flyers loaded up on defensemen last year. they had 8 or 9 NHL level guys at times and had to be paying them all. that's pricey.

 

[R0CKET]

A 2 tier NHL is about the blatantly stupidest thing I have ever heard of.

Question 1 - what top NHL talent is EVER going to even think about to playing on the 2nd tier league? None that are worth their salt. Every top player lives for winning the Cup and that would never happen on those crappy teams.

Question 2 - what IQ challenged hockey fan is going to be willing to pay good money to see a sub-par hockey team marketed as NHL-caliber play in a League where they can vitually never win?

People gotta understand that this game needs to get fixed for the better or worse of all of its teams. Unless you think its still a good idea to have an NHL without and Edmonton, Calgary, Pitt along with the other newer small market rabble.

Those teams will be out as well as the Carolina's & Florida's.

 

[rekrul]

I got an idea lets figure out whom the NHL should make minor league franchies out of contraction, say 6 canidates. then hire the NBC reality wiz to make a show, with this premise, ONE of the franchises stays in the NHL. How by having real playoffs, 7 games baby. THink the stanley cup games are in tense, think how players would play with the JOBS on the line! yep lets completly sell our souls put cameras in the homes of NHLers, how their familys stresses over losing their millions in income. Follow the 'rabid fan' as they scream at their team to stay in the NHL.

Episode 4 Worry time. Marty Mc20goals per year has been battling through a mydrid of injuries, follow him through the tough decion play tuesdays crucial game 5. Doctors recomedation to shut it down but Martys family, notably Mrs Trophywife is presuing Marty to play. She pesters him "marty the series is 2-2, we win and we are one step closer, have you looked at my bergdoorf bill lately, we still have a Lexus to pay off" Marty: " Jez I can barly life my arm..., I duno"

Will Marty play? see them and the rest of the squad as they fight for the team to remain in the NHL. ITS MUST SEE TV!!!

 

[Guest]

Why not just have 4 conferences

Conf 1 (7/8 rich teams)
Conf 2 (22/23 poorer teams)

Each conference plays off amoungst itself. Poor conference gets 3 semi finalists, rich conference gets 1. Overall winner get the SC.

That was similar to my idea. You break the league into two leagues like MLB or you could call them conferences. You would have the teams who need a cap to survive grouped together, and then you would have the teams who don't need a cap grouped together. The two conferences would play internally exclusively, including the playoffs, with each side providing a Stanley Cup Finalist. It would increase the ratings as many of the bigger hockey markets would survive without a cap, and would be guaranteed to go further in the playoffs as a result as well. You would have still seen a Calgary-Tampa Bay final last season, you would have just seen it in the capped tier, with Tampa Bay potentially facing the winner of a Detroit-Philly final in the non-capped league.

There wouldn't be the dreaded tier affect either, as both sides would still compete for the scoring trophies, President Trophy, and Stanley Cup.

Best of all, you can fix the divisions to even numbers allowing division matchups in the playoffs as well. Hypothetically you have 16 teams in the capped league, 14 teams in the non-capped league. The capped league could have 4 divisions of 4 teams each, which would help on travel costs as well. The non-capped league could have two divisions of 7, essentially an East & West.

I personally love the idea, although the capped teams no doubt lose revenue sharing from missing the games against the non-capped teams. That means fans in Phoenix would miss the Detroit games (a big draw in Phoenix) for example. You would also have the non-capped teams continuing their free spending ways without too much restraint, luring free agents to the non-capped league. However, only so many players can fill those teams, and many players would rather play first line minutes at second line salaries than play 3rd line minutes for first line salaries.

 

[Atlas]

I think the large market teams should fold. Cities with say, a population of only 500,000 to 2 Million people would be allowed to have an NHL franchise.

If you commies out there in commie-land want to do it then do it right!

 

[Habsaku]

Not sure where you got your numbers from, but last season Phoenix lost over $20M according to the Coyotes and Wayne, yet you list them as $7.8? Philadelphia lose money? Not likely.

Apparently, 5 of the 6 most profitable teams were Canadian last year, only one out was Ottawa so I'm not surprised anymore and in fact, I'm really skeptic when it comes to the owners and their numbers.

 

[IdiotsPickedMyName*]

Im confused Edmonton and calgary are always Bitc#ing about losing a ton of money yet they are some of the top gainers in the nhl at 3.3 and 2.3 mil each, these numbers dont seem right??? By these numbers half the nhl made money last year i thought it was only 5 or 6 teams that turned a profit.

 

[SuperUnknown]

Apparently, 5 of the 6 most profitable teams were Canadian last year, only one out was Ottawa so I'm not surprised anymore and in fact, I'm really skeptic when it comes to the owners and their numbers.

These numbers come from Forbes, which means that they are estimates. If you look at their track record for their estimated franchise value vs real market value (what the teams were sold for), it's not very good.

As well, not included in their numbers is "interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization". While in the short term, you won't consider those, in the long term these items sure matter because you end up paying them.

 

[Habsfan 32]

Bad idea...this is a profitability issue. Let's just fold the 15 teams that lost the most money last year....

Colorado Avalanche -1.1
New York Rangers -3.3
Florida Panthers -3.7
Philadelphia Flyers -4.1
Ottawa Senators -5.0
Los Angeles Kings -5.3
Phoenix Coyotes -7.8
New York Islanders -9.5
Buffalo Sabres -10.5
New Jersey Devils -13.9
Washington Capitals -14.7
Detroit Red Wings -16.4
Carolina Hurricanes -18.2
Mighty Ducks Anaheim -22.4
St Louis Blues -28.8

I never thaught they lost money.

 

[alecfromtherock]

I agree with reducing the roster sizes to say 18 players X 30 teams = 540 players in the NHL, 200 of the bottom players would get the boot thus increasing the overall quality of the game.

Enter last years non-signed draftees with this years draftees and some in the bottom 100-200 of the 540 remaining NHL players will also be forced out(over the hill veterans can just gracefully retire with their millions)

18 man rosters is = to 8 teams contracting, relocate some teams to hockey cities and open up the game and the NHL is set.

 

[triggrman]

One of Nashville's radio stations had this discussion today, about contracting, relocating or folding the Predators. Craig Leipold's agreement with the city was sweet, the city actually paid 15M up front for Craig, upgraded the arena, gave him total control of the arena, let him keep all signage revenue, cover all operating expenses and capital upgrades, however if he leaves the city before his 30 year lease is up he has to pay 30M fee to the city. So factor that into what ever he loses as far as value to the team. So his total loss today for folding the team would be around 90M and that's just out of pocket money, so I don't think he'd fold or contract for just 50M

 

[Mat]

Why even fold the teams? The NHL should follow the European example and have upper and lower leagues. That would give teams a chance to restrict their spending while building for the future. Have relegation and promotion at the end of the season. All upper league teams, save the relegated ones, enter the Stanley Cup playoffs. The promoted teams get to play for the Cup as well.

it seems you forgot about the AHL

 

[Mat]

I never thaught they lost money.

those numbers are really wrong.

 

[Mat]

I suggested something like a super league on the Oilers board. How about a process something like this:

Step 1: The league's seven top revenue earners (TOR, DAL, DET, COL, PHI, NYR and MON according to Larry Brooks) retain the rights to the league name, the Stanley Cup, national tv rights and all of their roster players. They also get to have a dispersal draft to choose players off the remaining 23 teams. All 30 teams retain all branding, farm teams, management and staff, their share of the remaining lockout slush fund, rights to negotiate with all players under contract or RFA under previous CBA, and all local sponsorship and tv contracts. The remaining 23 teams get an additional $10M each for their troubles ($230M).

Step 2: NHL holds dispersal draft, signs players to contracts and sets up whatever CBA they want to negotiate with the PA. There would be approximately 175 players in the NHL, and they would be represented by the NHLPA.

Step 3: Remaining 23 teams start new league (lets call it NHL2). $230M goes in to setup and marketing. League imposes its own CBA and the approximately 575 roster players would set up new representation.

Step4: NHL2 moves 5 teams (lets say CAR, FLA, ANH, NSH, PIT) to new markets: Winnipeg, Toronto, Windsor, Philadelphia, Quebec City. So new leagues would look like:

NHL
TOR
DAL
DET
COL
PHI
NYR
MON


NHL2:
East:
OTT
TOR2
Windsor
QC
PHI2
ATL
BOS
TB
NJ
NYI
BUF
WSH

West:
EDM
CGY
VCR
WPG
CHI
MIN
CLB
STL
LA
PHO
SJ

Conclusion: NHL would have the best money earners, the Cup, the best players and would be great hockey. NHL2 would be about competitive balance, have 8 CDN franchises, players' calibre would be about the bottom 575 players in the current NHL (not the best, but still pretty good), can institute any rules they want.

this is the dumbest idea i've ever heard

 

[futurcorerock]

2-tier NHL = dead league in 5 years

So how, all you intelligent pro-2-tier leaguers, are you going to sell Hockey in North Carolina if you also tell them that there is no way they will compete for a Stanley Cup on their first year back, that they have to earn the right to even compete for it?

Ridiculous that this is even argued.

 

[Mighty Duck]

:lol

Sounds like the best idea I've heard on these boards.....

Fold up NY, Philly, Detroit, the Toronto Maple Leafs and the Avs the it would surely be smooth sailing for the rest of remaining teams!!!

Why didn't somebody think of this before?

If you do a search, I DID.

 

[nyr7andcounting]

Since someone brought it up earlier, it came to my attention that despite the markets in the league that can't sustain a team..there might actually be more markets that can sustain 2 teams, beyond NY. What would people think about a 2nd team in Toronto? The money and fan support seems to be overflowing for the Leafs..and any time you can put another succesful team in Canada it's a good idea. What would you think, would it work?

 

[Weary]

2-tier NHL = dead league in 5 years

So how, all you intelligent pro-2-tier leaguers, are you going to sell Hockey in North Carolina if you also tell them that there is no way they will compete for a Stanley Cup on their first year back, that they have to earn the right to even compete for it?

In my plan the two highest finishers in the lower league get to enter the Stanley Cup playoffs.

 

[MacDaddy TLC*]

So how, all you intelligent pro-2-tier leaguers, are you going to sell Hockey in North Carolina if you also tell them that there is no way they will compete for a Stanley Cup on their first year back, that they have to earn the right to even compete for it?

Ridiculous that this is even argued.

We're not going to sell hockey in North Carolina. They don't seem interested so why preach to the unconverted and waste any more money?

 

[Hoek]

2-tier NHL = dead league in 5 years

So how, all you intelligent pro-2-tier leaguers, are you going to sell Hockey in North Carolina if you also tell them that there is no way they will compete for a Stanley Cup on their first year back, that they have to earn the right to even compete for it?

Ridiculous that this is even argued.

Just another transparent attempt to prevent the Lightning from repeating, much like the Save Stanley effort. A team with a "tier 2" payroll already kicked everyone's ass, now they want to artificially prevent it from happening again.

No I don't truly believe what I just said, but you can't deny it could be interpreted that way.