Ukraine: Ukraine National team

ozo

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Feb 24, 2010
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side note, but does a player need to play for Donbass for 2-4 years to qualify? Nabokov was able to transfer to Russia while playing in North America and not in the 'national competition of your country' as per the IIHF guidelines. Playing in the KHL in general would count as playing in the 'national competition of Ukraine', yes or no?

Nabokov is the sole exception of the rule, so lets avoid mentioning him any further. At the time of the transfer he was a superstar and God knows what tools Russian hockey people used to convince IIHF.

But in general, yes, playing for Donbass in KHL is enough to earn eligibility, prime example would be Dallman and Kazakhstan. Two or four years, depends entirely if player has previous IIHF competition experience.
 

ozo

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Feb 24, 2010
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Ideally the guys who end up being on the national teams are more like a Valentin Utkin, who was from Russia but played on Sokil his entire career and never left t he country, and helped the Ukrainian national team afterwards - and the "2 years and gone" crowd is small

Indeed, I have no problem with that. Plenty of such "Utkin" cases in almost every post-Soviet country. But we don't even need to look for ancient examples, I have no complaints about Ryan Gardner playing for Switzerland. But icing Russian players from the very first second they theoretically become eligible, that's a no-no for me.

Also it must be judged on case-by-case basis, but it's silly to say Anisin might have some percentage of Ukrainian roots and that somehow would justify his naturalization. Knowing the history of both countries, you could probably find some sort of mixed heritage in most Russian families. Same thing happens in soccer, when second tier English players are always able to find some Welsh/Scottish/Irish/Caribbean grandparent and voala they can enjoy International competition, I don't blame them, but it is silly to an extent and defeat the whole point of the national tournaments. To me the relevance of bloodlines ends with the father or mother.
 

ozo

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Feb 24, 2010
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I'm sure someone has already asked this, but after Donbass joining KHL, would it be realistic to expect Ukraine getting promoted back to the top division in 4-5 years? How big is the effect of having KHL team in Ukraine, in short term and also in long term (development of prospects and younger juniors)?

What do you guys think?

We will see the extent, but it really depends, but here are the obvious ways

a)Donbass might make available the best of the little talant they have, which for various reasons didn't report to NT
b)also it looks like Donbass will help to naturalize some some second tier Russians
c)will maybe pull back or keep home some young players that previously had nowhere really to go when they enter mid-teens
d)they have probably the only fully functioning hockey school in the country, which of course could pay off big in long term (say,10 years from now)

First two bullet points will help immediately, but when you look at the competition they will face in second tier WC, it's hard to say that they definitely will be promoted. Hockey is getting more competitive as far as teams ranked from 12-20 in the world are concerned. Depends on who actually reports/gets naturalized and if they will get a proper coaching.
 

Sokil

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Apr 29, 2010
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I'm sure someone has already asked this, but after Donbass joining KHL, would it be realistic to expect Ukraine getting promoted back to the top division in 4-5 years? How big is the effect of having KHL team in Ukraine, in short term and also in long term (development of prospects and younger juniors)?

What do you guys think?

I think a 4-5 year goal is realistic.

Now the effect of having a team in the KHL? I'll just list the points:
  • Ukrainian players no longer will NEED to go to Russian hockey schools or Russian KHL teams for jobs, ending that talent drain
  • Donbass runs a big hockey school with the best infastructure in the country, so more prospects coming up through the Donbass system
  • Being in the KHL, they now have draft protection on the top Ukrainian prospects they produce
  • all of this ties into how tight Donbass is working with the FHU, and will bring up all prospects with the goal of strengthening the national team
  • Having Donbass in the KHL also allows them to poach Russian players (as they are doing now) for the national team, which should have a good short term effect on getting back up to the top division
 

Sokil

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Also it must be judged on case-by-case basis, but it's silly to say Anisin might have some percentage of Ukrainian roots and that somehow would justify his naturalization. Knowing the history of both countries, you could probably find some sort of mixed heritage in most Russian families. Same thing happens in soccer, when second tier English players are always able to find some Welsh/Scottish/Irish/Caribbean grandparent and voala they can enjoy International competition, I don't blame them, but it is silly to an extent and defeat the whole point of the national tournaments. To me the relevance of bloodlines ends with the father or mother.

I'm not saying it justifies the practice from a hockey point of view, just that it's palatable to me over say, getting ringers from Canada or Sweden with no cultural or familiar connection to the country. If Russians can accept a Ukrainian as 'Russian' the second he gets a passport, I can accept a Russian with Ukrainian roots coming home.

a)Donbass might make available the best of the little talant they have, which for various reasons didn't report to NT

d)they have probably the only fully functioning hockey school in the country, which of course could pay off big in long term (say,10 years from now)

(a) is a huge reason

As for (d), most everyone usually comes through Sokil, Ldinka, or the Kharkiv SDYUSHOR system. Tverdovsky is the only Donetsk-born player I can think of, it'll be interested to see this new wave of Donetsk region players 10 years from now.
 

ozo

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Feb 24, 2010
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If Russians can accept a Ukrainian as 'Russian' the second he gets a passport, I can accept a Russian with Ukrainian roots coming home.

But why would that influence you? Different people accept different things, but that doesn't really mean that you should copy them (ironic that I'm trying to force my opinion upon you :laugh: ). If Russia/Sweden/China would poach any of our players I still would hate to see our top six filled out with foreigners from said countries even if their ancestors could point out the corner of the map Latvia stands on.
 

Sokil

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I guess the same reason a Jew would be fine with an Israeli team filled with Jewish Americans, or Zagreb repatriating Croat Canadians.

They're Ukrainians, it's the Ukrainian team. If they're part of the diaspora like me, I'm cool with that. I'd rather someone born in Russia who is proud of where they come from (like Nikolishin) than someone born in Ukraine who calls himself otherwise in interviews (Ponikarovsky, who calls himself Russian in interviews)
 

Xokkeu

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Apr 5, 2012
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But why would that influence you? Different people accept different things, but that doesn't really mean that you should copy them (ironic that I'm trying to force my opinion upon you :laugh: ). If Russia/Sweden/China would poach any of our players I still would hate to see our top six filled out with foreigners from said countries even if their ancestors could point out the corner of the map Latvia stands on.

If there were international sports in 1800, I think it'd be reasonable that you'd see a lot of Canadians and Americans playing on different teams, considering the countries had just parted twenty years before. It's pretty reasonable that there would be a lot of back and forth between Russia and Ukraine seeing as their hockey development was 100% linked from the beginning.
 

Xokkeu

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Apr 5, 2012
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Indeed, I have no problem with that. Plenty of such "Utkin" cases in almost every post-Soviet country. But we don't even need to look for ancient examples, I have no complaints about Ryan Gardner playing for Switzerland. But icing Russian players from the very first second they theoretically become eligible, that's a no-no for me.

Also it must be judged on case-by-case basis, but it's silly to say Anisin might have some percentage of Ukrainian roots and that somehow would justify his naturalization. Knowing the history of both countries, you could probably find some sort of mixed heritage in most Russian families. Same thing happens in soccer, when second tier English players are always able to find some Welsh/Scottish/Irish/Caribbean grandparent and voala they can enjoy International competition, I don't blame them, but it is silly to an extent and defeat the whole point of the national tournaments. To me the relevance of bloodlines ends with the father or mother.


Britain have the home nations agreement, which restricts which Federation the soccer players can represent.
 

jekoh

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Jun 8, 2004
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Britain have the home nations agreement, which restricts which Federation the soccer players can represent.
If I'm not mistaken, it does not restrict the players any further than Ozo said: they merely need to have one grandparent from the country.

Nabokov is the sole exception of the rule, so lets avoid mentioning him any further. At the time of the transfer he was a superstar and God knows what tools Russian hockey people used to convince IIHF.
Also he did play 3 seasons in Russia. The requirement is 4 seasons, but let's not act like he did not play in Russia at all.
 
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ozo

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Feb 24, 2010
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I'd rather someone born in Russia who is proud of where they come from (like Nikolishin) than someone born in Ukraine who calls himself otherwise in interviews (Ponikarovsky, who calls himself Russian in interviews)

How surprsing that both players spoke out about their love for the other country at the time when it was convenient for them - seconds after signing for their new clubs. :sarcasm: They just tried to score some points with the fans in countries they signed in. Only Nikolishin wasn't speaking against the nation you care about and poor Ponikarovsky was put between a rock and hard place, when he met media scrutinity of SKA trying to circumvent the foreigner rules ;)

If there were international sports in 1800, I think it'd be reasonable that you'd see a lot of Canadians and Americans playing on different teams, considering the countries had just parted twenty years before. It's pretty reasonable that there would be a lot of back and forth between Russia and Ukraine seeing as their hockey development was 100% linked from the beginning.

And I wouldn't have any problem with that. As I said, direct parents are fine with me, as far as the switch of allegiance is concerned.

Britain have the home nations agreement, which restricts which Federation the soccer players can represent.

Home nation agreement only restricts this "eligibility gaining process". If an English player's grandmother was born in Dublin, he can play for team Ireland. Basically your bloodlines make you eligible on the day you are born. But they find their patriotism only after England snubs them.

Also he did play 3 seasons in Russia. The requirement is 4 seasons, but let's not act like he did not play in Russia at all.

No one is trying to prove anything else. That said he plain and simple didn't meet the requirements for the team change. IIHF lately have rejected players for even lesser shortcomings. For example, IIHF declined Kazakhstan's application of naturalizing Mikhail Panshin last summer. He only needed two consecutive years in Kazakhstan, criteria met easily you'd think. But, no. The actual wording IIHF rules is about his international transfer card and it's need to be held by Kazakh federation for two years. And see, Panshin regularly during the summers signed try-out contracts with native Cherepovets hoping to land a deal there. And for that his transfer card was again technically transferred back to Russia, thus deeming him ineligible.

If it were up to me, I'd ban these transfers altogether, especially in the cases when player already appeared for a different NT of any age.
 

jekoh

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Jun 8, 2004
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Home nation agreement only restricts this "eligibility gaining process". If an English player's grandmother was born in Dublin, he can play for team Ireland.
True, but that has nothing to do with him being English (or British). If a Latvian player's grandmother was born in Dublin, he can play for team Ireland all the same. Since the Republic of Ireland is not one of the Home Nations, the Home nation agreement does not apply.

No one is trying to prove anything else.
The OP wrote that "Nabokov was able to transfer to Russia while playing in North America" which is simply not true. He was able to transfer to Russia because he did play in Russia for 3 years. Surely had he been in NA all this time he would have been denied.


That said he plain and simple didn't meet the requirements for the team change. IIHF lately have rejected players for even lesser shortcomings. For example, IIHF declined Kazakhstan's application of naturalizing Mikhail Panshin last summer. He only needed two consecutive years in Kazakhstan, criteria met easily you'd think. But, no. The actual wording IIHF rules is about his international transfer card and it's need to be held by Kazakh federation for two years. And see, Panshin regularly during the summers signed try-out contracts with native Cherepovets hoping to land a deal there. And for that his transfer card was again technically transferred back to Russia, thus deeming him ineligible.
He thus does not meet the criteria, which specifically require him to play 2 years in his new country "during which period he has neither transferred to another country nor played ice hockey for a team registered/located within any other country". That's not a technicality, he did play for a Russian team during the 2 years in question, and in doing so he simply reset the counter back to zero.
 

Sokil

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Apr 29, 2010
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How surprsing that both players spoke out about their love for the other country at the time when it was convenient for them - seconds after signing for their new clubs. :sarcasm: They just tried to score some points with the fans in countries they signed in. Only Nikolishin wasn't speaking against the nation you care about and poor Ponikarovsky was put between a rock and hard place, when he met media scrutinity of SKA trying to circumvent the foreigner rules ;)

Actually, I was referring to his time in Toronto. Was on the radio doing an interview and called himself Russian...he's also called himself Ukrainian at other times but it left a sour taste in my mouth nonetheless. I couldn't care less what he says now in interviews, considering the situation.
 

Sokil

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He thus does not meet the criteria, which specifically require him to play 2 years in his new country "during which period he has neither transferred to another country nor played ice hockey for a team registered/located within any other country". That's not a technicality, he did play for a Russian team during the 2 years in question, and in doing so he simply reset the counter back to zero.

he's played strictly for Kazakh teams since 2009, but it was cancelled because of a tryout and not for signing with a Russian team? I'm confused and curious
 

Sokil

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Apr 29, 2010
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The OP wrote that "Nabokov was able to transfer to Russia while playing in North America" which is simply not true. He was able to transfer to Russia because he did play in Russia for 3 years. Surely had he been in NA all this time he would have been denied.

Correct, I skimmed his wikipedia which omitted all of his years in Russia. I wrongly assumed he went straight from Ust-Kamenogorsk to the AHL.
 

jekoh

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Jun 8, 2004
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he's played strictly for Kazakh teams since 2009, but it was cancelled because of a tryout and not for signing with a Russian team? I'm confused and curious
Since they have two different phrases in the rules ("neither transferred nor played ice hockey for a team"), I'm going to assume the latter's specific purpose is to cover tryouts and similar stints. Apparently teams have to submit paperwork to the IIHF even for a mere tryout: http://pointstreaksites.com/files/uploaded_documents/776/IIHF_Tryout_Notice1_3.pdf

Correct, I skimmed his wikipedia which omitted all of his years in Russia. I wrongly assumed he went straight from Ust-Kamenogorsk to the AHL.
It's always a good idea to also have a look at WP pages in languages other than English. The English version is notoriously NA-centric when it comes to ice hockey.
 

Sokil

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Euro Challenge roster:
http://bighockey.ua/news/26-prizovnikiv-zbirnoyi-ukrayini.html

Goalkeepers: Eugene Napnenko ("White Leopard"), Vadim Seliverstov ("Astana", Kazakhstan), Mikhail Shevchuk ("Young Guard", MHL).

Defenders: Gennady Razin, Denis Petrukhno, Yuri Silnytsky (all - "Donbass", KHL), Yuri Navarenko ("Gomel"), Vladimir Aleksyuk, Igor Kuhut (both - "White Leopard"), Daniel Skripets ("Young Guard" MHL).

Forwards : Eugene Byeluhin, Roman Blahoi, Sergei Varlamov, Maxim Kvitchenko, Alexander Toryanyk (all - "Donbass", KHL), Viktor Zakharov, Yuri Petranhovskyy, Egor Morozov, Vladislav Shalimov (all - "Young Guard", MHL), Andrei Mihnea ("Metallurg", Belarus), Alexander Materuhin ("Dinamo" Minsk, KHL) Shafarenko Oleg, Oleg Timchenko (both - "Youth", Belarus), Dmitry Nimenko ("Companion-Naftogaz"), Artem Bondariev, Alexander Karaulschuk ( both - "White Leopard").


highlighted the KHL/MHL guys

how can the new hires play without being ukrainian for 2 years? what's the loophole, that it's not the WCs?
 

ozo

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Feb 24, 2010
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Exactly, not an official IIHF tournament. Ice whoever you want. Still did Ukraine really needed a player like Silnitsky?
 

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