OT: UFC 167: St-Pierre vs. Hendricks (20th Anniversary Show)

[Slapshot_11]

GSP shoulda won in the first round

 

[ziploc]

GSP shoulda won in the first round

I saw that too. But I don't think he fully tapped, and he was clearly still able to go. GSP should have held that guillotine a little longer, saved himself an awful lot of trouble.

 

[VanillaCoke]

What don't I see?

 

[Ozone]

GSP shoulda won in the first round

Wow...crazy close. I freaking missed that!

 

[hlrsr]

I love GSP, but Hendricks won that fight. His strikes did way more damage, even if GSP did out hit him (and I'm not sure that is clear cut). Takedowns were about even, and Hendricks did more damage on top. Really can't see how they give it to GSP, unless it's that whole beating the champ conclusively thing, which is really starting to irritate me.

It is most definitely the beating the champ thing. Hendricks had the edge in the fight but it was close. I wasn't surprised by the decision at all.

 

[Derp Kassian]

GSP shoulda won in the first round

He let up when he was tapping so it's his own fault.. then he proceeded to get his ass kicked thoroughly and still somehow retained his title. UFC is a joke.

 

[604]

What don't I see?

There is an incident where it looks like Hendricks taps.

He let up when he was tapping so it's his own fault.. then he proceeded to get his ass kicked thoroughly and still somehow retained his title. UFC is a joke.

I think Hendricks won however I can see the argument for giving GSP the fight.

The judges actually scored the fight perfectly within reason. Based on the stats GSP clearly won rounds 3 and 5 while Hendricks clearly won 2 and 4. Hendricks did more physical damage in rounds 2 and 4 which makes GSP look like **** at the end of the fight while Hendricks looked like he sat in a sauna.

The judges split round 1 which had Henricks land a couple more strikes because of leg kicks and GSP landing a couple more "significant" strikes. Both fighters had a takedown in round 1.

At the end of the day, if you believe that you have to clearly beat the champ to win a decision over him, a fight where the champ GSP landed more "significant" strikes, had more takedowns, and was first to throw in 80% of the exchanges, while slightly losing the total strikes landed battle, would logically lead to people having GSP on top. The fact that Hendricks did so much damage to GSP in round 2 and messed up his face with elbows is probably what makes me and a lot of people think that Hendricks won.

...but that's not how fights are scored. He clearly didn't dominate enough to earn a 10-8 round in any round based on current standards. NOTE: IMO it should be much easier to earn 10-8 and 10-7 rounds but fights simply are not scored that way at this point.

 

[VanillaCoke]

I agree with everything you just said.
It was the correct decision to me, barely, but correct.

Edit: I really don't see the controversy. Gsp got busted up but he wasn't dominated at all.

 

[Orca Smash]

Well i was wrong about woodley vs kos, that fight could have easily been a boring, positional, endurance, wrestling match for those who followed woodley and koscheck (woodley in strikeforce), but man was I wrong and was woodley really impressive, they both wanted to stand and throw. Its time for kos to leave the ufc though, the ufc has a monoply on the very best in the world (save for alveraz and chandler) they need to weed out some of these gatekeepers that are not contenders anymore.

Whoever gave that fight to rory and gsp I thought was wrong, but the judging and criteria has been flawed for awhile and really needs re-evaluation but thats outside dana's control. Not nearly enough of the athletic commission scoring criteria favors damage...I miss pride yet. In that sense it did not surprise me either that it was another controversial close decision given the criteria.

There is an incident where it looks like Hendricks taps.



I think Hendricks won however I can see the argument for giving GSP the fight.

The judges actually scored the fight perfectly within reason. Based on the stats GSP clearly won rounds 3 and 5 while Hendricks clearly won 2 and 4. Hendricks did more physical damage in rounds 2 and 4 which makes GSP look like **** at the end of the fight while Hendricks looked like he sat in a sauna.

I dont know if i agree with round 3 based on how much emphasis the scoring puts on take downs, I will say I can see why someone give round 3 to gsp, but I dont agree with your statement that he clearly won round 3. With that said I dont think its robery to score round 3 for gsp. But I also thought johnny won round 1 and I gave him the fight. I do agree round 2 was not quite a 10-8 round either though. I gave hendricks round 1 clearly for landing the more damaging strikes, gsp in comparison landed nothing substantial in round 1.

Also that significant strike stat can be misleading, the title significant is incredibly misleading, its just a strike that lands flush, or is believed to land flush and its awarded if the stats guy thinks it landed flush, gsp landed a decent amount of strikes but many with little power behind them and they are counted as "significant strikes" without taking into consideration any damage or power. I actually think they should get rid of this stat altogether. But I would rather a strike meter that takes into consideration power punches/strikes like boxing with more strict rules as to what counts as a power strike. The significant strike stat can mislead fans. Whats often counted as a significant strike is often mind boggling.

 

[604]

What judges does tristar have pictures of? Whoever gave that fight to rory and gsp I thought was wrong, but the judging and criteria has been flawed for awhile and really needs re-evaluation but thats outside dana's control. Not nearly enough of the athletic commission scoring criteria favors damage...I miss pride yet.

I think that's the thing, damage counts...but its on a round-by-round basis.

If a fighter dishes a lot of damage on a guy in round 1 but ends up on his back being controlled and lightly beat on for the next 4 rounds, he gets the 1st round for the damage he's done and loses the next 4 for being controlled, neutralized, and dominated (note: not saying that was the case here, just making a point).

 

[Orca Smash]

I think that's the thing, damage counts...but its on a round-by-round basis.

If a fighter dishes a lot of damage on a guy in round 1 but ends up on his back being controlled and lightly beat on for the next 4 rounds, he gets the 1st round for the damage he's done and loses the next 4 for being controlled, neutralized, and dominated (note: not saying that was the case here, just making a point).

Well thats why I gave hendricks the 1st round, they both had a takedown as you mentioned, but to me hendricks landed the more damaging blows in round 1 which is why I gave him that round.

I also edited my post to add a few other points, I do agree with you generally, I was not shocked it would go to gsp, its not unusual i dont see fights the way judges do, and it wasnt exactly crystal clear, but i did think hendricks won rounds 1,2,4.

In pride the fight was scored as a whole, I personally preferred it, but I understand why the commission does a round by round basis.

When I discuss issues with damage importance in scoring criteria its more so due to how much emphasis the athletic comission puts on takedowns. A fighter can be hurt and attempts a desperate takedown and hold on for the rest of the round because he is hurt and can be awarded the round for the take down and octagon control despite the opposing fighter landing more damaging blows. Imo takedown points should only be awarded if you improve to a dominant position, attempt to finish, or land damaging blows. Some bjj fighters like jacare have no issue fighting from the guard, and they wont defend a takedown because they can easily submit you and its a strength. Not to mention if takedown is scored but the opposing fighter pops back up after a few seconds, I dont see how it's useful to award the fighter a point for a takedown.

 

[604]

Well thats why I gave hendricks the 1st round, they both had a takedown as you mentioned, but to me hendricks landed the more damaging blows in round 1 which is why I gave him that round.

I also edited my post to add a few other points, I do agree with you generally, I was not shocked it would go to gsp, its not unusual i dont see fights the way judges do, and it wasnt exactly crystal clear, but i did think hendricks won rounds 1,2,4.

In pride the fight was scored as a whole, I personally preferred it, but I understand why the commission does a round by round basis.

When I discuss issues with damage importance in scoring criteria its more so due to how much emphasis the athletic comission puts on takedowns. A fighter can be hurt and attempts a desperate takedown and hold on for the rest of the round because he is hurt and can be awarded the round for the take down and octagon control despite the opposing fighter landing more damaging blows. Imo takedown points should only be awarded if you improve to a dominant position, attempt to finish, or land damaging blows. Some bjj fighters like jacare have no issue fighting from the guard, and they wont defend a takedown because they can easily submit you and its a strength. Not to mention if takedown is scored but the opposing fighter pops right back up, I dont see how it's useful to award the fighter a point.

I agree with the way you scored the fight and with your opinion on takedowns. That being said, I don't see this as a controversial decision at all...

GSP did a lot of damage to Hendricks' body with body kicks while Hendricks hit GSP in the face a lot, obviously. Hendricks actually landed a lot more leg kicks then GSP did.

Here's the fight metric: http://blog.fightmetric.com/2013/11...tml?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

 

[Orca Smash]

I agree with the way you scored the fight and with your opinion on takedowns. That being said, I don't see this as a controversial decision at all...

GSP did a lot of damage to Hendricks' body with body kicks while Hendricks hit GSP in the face a lot, obviously. Hendricks actually landed a lot more leg kicks then GSP did.

Here's the fight metric: http://blog.fightmetric.com/2013/11...tml?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Again though it does not account really for power/damaging strikes...which is my issue with fight metrics significant strike and its also open for interpretation by the stats guy. A simple leg kick or a pawing jab that lands or is interpreted by the stats guy to have landed... is counted in a significant strike with as much weight as a head kick or right hook that lands and wobbles a fighter. My understanding is as long as the stats guy thinks it lands flush, it is typically counted as a significant strike. A power/damaging strike stat with more strict criteria would be much more useful, but the totals would be far less, although I am more in favor of getting rid of these all together as they are open for interpretation. Johny actually landed more total strikes... but I guess whoever did the stats felt not many of them landed clean ( again these stats can all be open for interpretation).

But imo the strikes he did land also had more power behind them and did more damage which makes the significant strike stat even more obscure and confusing.

These were apparently counted as a significant strike in the jones/gus fight for jones.

http://www.miscupload.com/upload/680034764492282213424240.gif

http://www.miscupload.com/upload/647087184985385456869353.gif

Jones could land 6 of those and gus could land 4 hard punches that wobble jones, and jones would still win the significant strike stat.

And another extra

http://i.minus.com/iNtz7qFJPj2HT.gif



Dana went nuts post fight presser around 13 minutes and Im no dana fan. He claimed even tristar knew gsp had lost the fight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OL9KQjL05M#t=1061

 

[NoRaise4Brackett]

I saw the elbows doing damage as GSP tried to take down Hendricks, a little ground n pound later on, and a number of thigh-knees in the early going. Then Hendricks landed some random punches.

The rest of the match I saw GSP winning the technical side of the standup. Hendricks would hit him harder here and there, but GSP kept him at bay with kicks and landed quite a few stiff jabs to the chin - ones that left Hendricks shaking his head - literally shaking it off. I bet there was some good welts under that big bush on his face.

I was thinking Hendricks might get the win, but wasn't surprised when GSP won. You just don't beat a champ like GSP because of a few short flurries, while being out-boxed technically. GSP pushed most of the fight, Hendricks was more content to counter - more points always go to the aggressor.

They need a rematch.

 

[Intoewsables]

GSP shoulda won in the first round

I think GSP would have reacted a lot differently if he thought Hendricks had tapped there.

 

[Royal Canuck]

Even if GSP lost the fight, he's still a legend of the sport and our country.

 

[BB6]

GSP shoulda won in the first round

In no mma world is that a tap, maybe he was going to tap or maybe he was going to put his palm on GSP's thigh and try to escape... its absurd that there are people actually calling that a tap.

I like GSP but I thought Hendrix's won that fight, two judges gave the first round to GSP, I leaned towards Hendrix that round, looking at it round by round, it was a close fight and there should be a rematch, I do not think Hendrix won by such a margin that I would call it a robbery.

Sure, why not.

You're nicer than I am.

 

[Superpest]

I take it you're more of a casual fan and a large part of your interest in this sport is due largely in part because of the success of Canadians noticeably GSP and the 'Next One' in Rory Mac?

Sure, why not.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Honestly I had it 48-47 Hendricks too, but that was before I saw the actual stats. I can see why round 1 went to the Champ, and it will go to the Champ every time. Hendricks and White are just upset because Hendricks absolutely dominated 2 rounds and the significant strikes he landed were to St-Pierre's head as opposed to St-Pierre's significant strikes coming on Hendricks's body. I don't see how Dana White gave that 5th round to Hendricks either. Seems to me like a lot of people were just looking at GSP's face and saying "oh well Hendricks clearly won that fight." IMO it was much much much closer than it appeared if you score the fight on a round-by-round basis which is how MMA is scored, and that 1st round in any non-championship fight could be a pure coin toss. But in a championship fight, when the champion scores more significant strikes (by 1), loses total strikes by 1 insignificant strike, ties in take-downs, but scores more submission attempts/successful submission moves, the round should go to the champ. GSP won that fight legitimately.

 

[m9]

Honestly I had it 48-47 Hendricks too, but that was before I saw the actual stats. I can see why round 1 went to the Champ, and it will go to the Champ every time. Hendricks and White are just upset because Hendricks absolutely dominated 2 rounds and the significant strikes he landed were to St-Pierre's head as opposed to St-Pierre's significant strikes coming on Hendricks's body. I don't see how Dana White gave that 5th round to Hendricks either. Seems to me like a lot of people were just looking at GSP's face and saying "oh well Hendricks clearly won that fight." IMO it was much much much closer than it appeared if you score the fight on a round-by-round basis which is how MMA is scored, and that 1st round in any non-championship fight could be a pure coin toss. But in a championship fight, when the champion scores more significant strikes (by 1), loses total strikes by 1 insignificant strike, ties in take-downs, but scores more submission attempts/successful submission moves, the round should go to the champ. GSP won that fight legitimately.

I generally agree. It was close and I had Hendricks winning 48-47 but it's hard to argue with 48-47 either way.

 

[m9]

And that wasn't a tap by Hendricks. Why would he tap in that situation when he wasn't even in trouble? It's dumb that people are even questioning it, although I'm sure it's mostly non-MMA fans.

 

[PG Canuck]

GSP shoulda won in the first round

Doubt Hendricks was tapping there.

 

[Orca Smash]

Honestly I had it 48-47 Hendricks too, but that was before I saw the actual stats. I can see why round 1 went to the Champ, and it will go to the Champ every time. Hendricks and White are just upset because Hendricks absolutely dominated 2 rounds and the significant strikes he landed were to St-Pierre's head as opposed to St-Pierre's significant strikes coming on Hendricks's body. I don't see how Dana White gave that 5th round to Hendricks either. Seems to me like a lot of people were just looking at GSP's face and saying "oh well Hendricks clearly won that fight." IMO it was much much much closer than it appeared if you score the fight on a round-by-round basis which is how MMA is scored, and that 1st round in any non-championship fight could be a pure coin toss. But in a championship fight, when the champion scores more significant strikes (by 1), loses total strikes by 1 insignificant strike, ties in take-downs, but scores more submission attempts/successful submission moves, the round should go to the champ. GSP won that fight legitimately.

Again though, please dont put so much stalk in those significant strike stats, and what they mean. I thought i made a good case above about those stats.

Its a controversial stat open for interpretation, and just looking at strike totals does not convey how much damage each strike does to the opponent, trust your eyes. That likely wont change your opinion on it, which is fine.

Also was not just dana and hendricks upset, most mma fighters thought hendricks won, condit especially.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Again though, please dont put so much stalk in those significant strike stats, and what they mean. I thought i made a good case above about those stats.

Its a controversial stat open for interpretation, and just looking at strike totals does not convey how much damage each strike does to the opponent, trust your eyes. That likely wont change your opinion on it, which is fine.

Also was not just dana and hendricks upset, most mma fighters thought hendricks won, condit especially.

Well then what about the submission attempt? That was a fairly significant event in round 1 which St-Pierre had the only attempt. I can see why people are upset; however, it's not as clear cut as it's being made out to be if you go purely on a points basis. That round 1 was closer than some people think, and ultimately Hendricks didn't do enough to take it away from the champion. Him coming out and acting like a pompous ass that he should have the belt and that he's the rightful champion disgusts me. He didn't beat the champion. He didn't stop the fight, and he didn't clearly win 3 or more rounds. He needs to stop being a whining crybaby, suck it up, and prepare to do better next time.

 

[shortshorts]

I like the fact that the judging of MMA is for the most part black/white.

The reason why Hendricks didn't win is because the significant strikes thing is a huge grey area.

I do agree that the way Hendricks was acting afterwards was cheesy. However, look at the golden standard that Dana White is with his stupid act.