Player Discussion Tyler Toffoli

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VanJack

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Following this whole 'trade Boeser' debate makes wonder about something I've always suspected about Benning and the Canucks. They tend to dramatically over-rate their own players. A lot of NHL GM's are guilty of this, but Vancouver might be the worst.

Nothing against Boeser, but he's coming off a very disappointing offensive season imo. Then there's the injuries....a serious back injury and chronic wrist problems, which might explain why his shot has lost some its zip. As far as these playoffs I'd rate him as 'OK'....solid in the first series against the Wild, less impactful against the Blues and MIA against Vegas.

Certainly he's a piece that the Canucks could trade, based on what they have in the pipeline. But somehow people recoil in horror.

It's the same reason why Benning traded for Sutter and Gudbranson because they were 'foundational players', supposedly a legit top two center and a top four d-man (sic). Then he doubled down by signing them to expensive extensions against all logic.

Then there's the saga of Chris Tanev....Should have been traded three years ago when his value was at the top of the market. It's not like the Canucks were a contender at the time. In fact they were in involuntary 'tank mode' as one of the worst teams in the NHL. Now they risk losing him for nothing.

In the words of 'the Gambler, the good GM's know when to 'hold-em' and know when to 'throw-em'. Sometimes you have just have to roll the dice. Posters were universally down on the Miller trade and weren't thrilled with the Motte deal either. But look at how they worked out.



.
 
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Hit the post

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Then he doubled down by signing them to expensive extensions against all logic.
He gave Sutter a contract extension (retroactive NTC no less) before he had a chance to see him play in a Canucks uniform. So at least one can say he was merely incorrect in what he *hoped* he would be for us. No-Good-Branson was a bigger ****-up in a sense he saw was a smelly turd he was as a Canuck (funny we didn't have a Bryan Campbell [..yet, as Hughes wasn't yet drafted] he carry his sorry butt around the ice). In spite of that, he gave him a big contract with some term. Pizza-pizza redux.
 

F A N

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I don’t get this love of Dumba. The guy is basically a 25 to 35 point small sized D man, who is getting six million. Personally I’d rather have Stecher for half the cap cost, and keep Boeser.

Well he put up a 14 goal 50 point season then 12 goals 22 points in 32 games before tearing his pec muscle. He hasn't been the same since but you can't deny his goal scoring ability.
He has also put up 10+ goals since his second full year in the league prior to this season.
 
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biturbo19

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I don’t get this love of Dumba. The guy is basically a 25 to 35 point small sized D man, who is getting six million. Personally I’d rather have Stecher for half the cap cost, and keep Boeser.

I don't get the fascination with Dumba either. It's not that he's "small" per se, it's that he's just completely the wrong type of defenceman for the Canucks to be targeting. He's not the real steady matchup presence we need. He's a pretty mediocre offensive defenceman. Just doesn't seem like the right fit, when we already have Myers on a big contract as a RHD who is kinda similar-ish.


I do think the idea of signing Toffoli to a reasonable deal, then using Boeser as trade-bait to land the right younger-ish defenceman is probably the right play though. Seems like since the injuries, Toffoli isn't so far off of what Boeser contributes as a RH shot goal-scorer and very little else. And Boeser will carry the greater "value" as a trade piece due to his age and profile. I just don't think Dumba is the right target. Feels like half the intrigue around him, is generated by the idea that he's very "available". Which i think in and of itself, is the sort of notion that should be cause for a bit of wariness. They're not moving Brodin for instance, they re-signed him. It's Dumba they're reportedly "shopping".
 

Hit the post

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I don't get the fascination with Dumba either. It's not that he's "small" per se, it's that he's just completely the wrong type of defenceman for the Canucks to be targeting. He's not the real steady matchup presence we need. He's a pretty mediocre offensive defenceman. Just doesn't seem like the right fit, when we already have Myers on a big contract as a RHD who is kinda similar-ish.


I do think the idea of signing Toffoli to a reasonable deal, then using Boeser as trade-bait to land the right younger-ish defenceman is probably the right play though. Seems like since the injuries, Toffoli isn't so far off of what Boeser contributes as a RH shot goal-scorer and very little else. And Boeser will carry the greater "value" as a trade piece due to his age and profile. I just don't think Dumba is the right target. Feels like half the intrigue around him, is generated by the idea that he's very "available". Which i think in and of itself, is the sort of notion that should be cause for a bit of wariness. They're not moving Brodin for instance, they re-signed him. It's Dumba they're reportedly "shopping".
Boeser hasn't shown he can stay healthy for a complete season. And if he's not scoring goals, he's fairly useless out there (granted, if you can only have one high end skill, that's the one to have). I doubt a winger, given that question mark, is going to net you a 2nd pairing RH D in a similiar age bracket. Certainly one that isn't near or over 30.

We *already* have high priced Myers on the roster so I think it's a moot point (eg., we can't afford Dumba) in any event.
 

Canucks1096

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Toffoli has to be signed unless the contract doesn't make any sense. With ufa if you're able to get a high playing level with 75% of the contact. That's considered a good contact. 4 years 20 M, he still should be productive at least 3 out of those 4 years. There is a slim chance it might turned into Ryan Callahan contact but that's a risk they need to take. Benning been searching for top 6 forwards for years without much success until recently, going for the big fish, Canucks are not successful, trying to turned a third line player in a top 6 and there not successful. Within 12 months stretch Benning got 3 players in the top 6 Miller, Toffoli and Pearson. Canucks were one of the lowest scoring team for 4 years straight and this year they were a top 10 scoring team.

Toffoli is a legit top 6 guys, Canucks need to keep him


Do people really want to see Eriksson Levio or Virtanen in the top 6. I don't

Don't think Canucks have any plans tonuse Gaudette on the wing.
 

F A N

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Following this whole 'trade Boeser' debate makes wonder about something I've always suspected about Benning and the Canucks. They tend to dramatically over-rate their own players. A lot of NHL GM's are guilty of this, but Vancouver might be the worst.

There's a difference between "over-rating your own player" in that you keep the player and placing unrealistic expectations upon him and "over-rating your own player" in that you ask for a lot in return for trading the player. I don't think the Canucks under Benning has done much of that. Certainly no where near being the worst.
 

mathonwy

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Well he put up a 14 goal 50 point season then 12 goals 22 points in 32 games before tearing his pec muscle. He hasn't been the same since but you can't deny his goal scoring ability.
He has also put up 10+ goals since his second full year in the league prior to this season.
Dumba can score goals and will score goals again.
 
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strattonius

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I get the opinion of not wanting Dumba. Personally I'm not really sure how I would feel about it given the price.

But saying Dumba is no good, over-rated or too small are all agregiously incorrect and a horrible evaluation of a very good defenseman.
 

Canucks1096

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Gagner was suppose to be a top 6 forward. Failed

Baer was suppose to be a top 6 foward. Failed

Ferland was suppose to be a top 6 forward. Failed

Around 8 million of cap on these players. Toffoli is the real deal, if Canucks don't resign him. Chances are they might be more failed experiments because top 6 forwards don't grow on trees.
 
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racerjoe

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Gagner was suppose to be a top 6 foward. Failed

Baer was suppose to be a top 6 foward. Failed

Ferland was suppose to be a top 6 forward. Failed

Around 8 million of cap on these players. Toffoli is the real deal, if Canucks don't resign him. Chances are they might be more failed experiments because top 6 forwards don't grow on trees.

While I disagree, now do it for the teams dmen...
 
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Fatass

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I get the opinion of not wanting Dumba. Personally I'm not really sure how I would feel about it given the price.

But saying Dumba is no good, over-rated or too small are all agregiously incorrect and a horrible evaluation of a very good defenseman.
Actually Dumba is small. He’s only 180 pounds. Troy Stecher is heavier. Plus, Dumba had one 50 point season, but otherwise is a 20-30 point guy. Tyler Myers had a 48 point rookie season, and win the Calder. Guys often have a career year, but really they are what all their other years say they are. Dumba is not a six million dollar player. It would be a huge mistake to sign Tofoli only to trade Boeser for Dumba.
Sign Tofu, keep Boeser, and stay away from Dumba.
 
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VanJack

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Gagner was suppose to be a top 6 foward. Failed

Baer was suppose to be a top 6 foward. Failed

Ferland was suppose to be a top 6 forward. Failed

Around 8 million of cap on these players. Toffoli is the real deal, if Canucks don't resign him. Chances are they might be more failed experiments because top 6 forwards don't grow on trees.
All valid points. After so many forward flops, Canuck fans are gun-shy. And to that list you add the worst 'fail' of all--Eriksson.

But Tofoli is a different animal. Sill well on the south side of 30 and a seasoned playoff veteran, who's proven he can play up and down the lineup. Well worth considering some contract term imo.
 
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xtra

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All valid points. After so many forward flops, Canuck fans are gun-shy. And to that list you add the worst 'fail' of all--Eriksson.

But Tofoli is a different animal. Sill well on the south side of 30 and a seasoned playoff veteran, who's proven he can play up and down the lineup. Well worth considering some contract term imo.

didn’t the eriksson off season have a bunch of under 30 Wingers who struggled to skate; got paid and crapped out.

watching him play (and more than the 10
Game sample with the canucks) I’m
Not sure he’s a guy you sign to big bucks and long term. 5*5 is probably not the best move for the canucks.
 

Bleach Clean

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didn’t the eriksson off season have a bunch of under 30 Wingers who struggled to skate; got paid and crapped out.

watching him play (and more than the 10
Game sample with the canucks) I’m
Not sure he’s a guy you sign to big bucks and long term. 5*5 is probably not the best move for the canucks.


You can't go past 4 years for him. Toffoli's skating is a concern. He's the youngest option and pretty durable over his career, but the question is: Does the mind consistently make up for his lack of wheels? I would bet that it does for 2-3 years, but not much more than that.
 

strattonius

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Actually Dumba is small. He’s only 180 pounds. Troy Stecher is heavier. Plus, Dumba had one 50 point season, but otherwise is a 20-30 point guy. Tyler Myers had a 48 point rookie season, and win the Calder. Guys often have a career year, but really they are what all their other years say they are. Dumba is not a six million dollar player. It would be a huge mistake to sign Tofoli only to trade Boeser for Dumba.
Sign Tofu, keep Boeser, and stay away from Dumba.

I wouldn’t trade Boeser for Dumba either but you’re wrong on a couple of counts.

One is the assumption that because Dumba is 180 lbs that he plays small. Dumba plays a hard game and is very tenacious in the boards. He plays a hard style like Stecher but because he has more skill he is a more effective checker.

Your analogy to Tyler Myers career path tells us nothing about Dumba. You’re just projecting your ideas of what Dumba is with a terrible example of another player that didn’t work out.

Lastly, Dumba is not a 20-30 pt d-man it would be more accurate to say he’s a 40 pt d-man.
 

bandwagonesque

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Actually Dumba is small. He’s only 180 pounds. Troy Stecher is heavier. Plus, Dumba had one 50 point season, but otherwise is a 20-30 point guy. Tyler Myers had a 48 point rookie season, and win the Calder. Guys often have a career year, but really they are what all their other years say they are. Dumba is not a six million dollar player. It would be a huge mistake to sign Tofoli only to trade Boeser for Dumba.
Sign Tofu, keep Boeser, and stay away from Dumba.
Dumba has scored at a 38/82gm pace over the last 5 years. Of course, this includes the seasons in which he did really well in addition to the ones in which he didn't, which might not be fair.
 

sting101

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I don't get the fascination with Dumba either. It's not that he's "small" per se, it's that he's just completely the wrong type of defenceman for the Canucks to be targeting. He's not the real steady matchup presence we need. He's a pretty mediocre offensive defenceman. Just doesn't seem like the right fit, when we already have Myers on a big contract as a RHD who is kinda similar-ish.


I do think the idea of signing Toffoli to a reasonable deal, then using Boeser as trade-bait to land the right younger-ish defenceman is probably the right play though. Seems like since the injuries, Toffoli isn't so far off of what Boeser contributes as a RH shot goal-scorer and very little else. And Boeser will carry the greater "value" as a trade piece due to his age and profile. I just don't think Dumba is the right target. Feels like half the intrigue around him, is generated by the idea that he's very "available". Which i think in and of itself, is the sort of notion that should be cause for a bit of wariness. They're not moving Brodin for instance, they re-signed him. It's Dumba they're reportedly "shopping".
trading Boeser to have Toffoli fade in a couple years is a terrible idea
 

sting101

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You can't go past 4 years for him. Toffoli's skating is a concern. He's the youngest option and pretty durable over his career, but the question is: Does the mind consistently make up for his lack of wheels? I would bet that it does for 2-3 years, but not much more than that.
i agree with you for once.

I'm not that excited to have lazy, party boy Toffoli but there is no denying he should be jacked being on a team that could go places, playing with top end talent and he does have some sick hands and skill.

I'm concerned we are becoming too slow just like LA became especially if we move on from Virtanen and don't replace with someone who can push defenses back from time to time.

I max out at 4 yrs
 
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