Tyler Bozak - Positive or Negative impact on the team?

[The Blue Devil]

Actually Pens fans complain a lot about their wing depth. They have two PPG centers, but I would argue that our wings are much much better.

They also complain a lot about their defense and goaltending. They have a lot of money tied up in those two centers. Wonder why they are so adamant at not upgrading their wings like they obviously should?

Don't you think Crosby would love to have a Kessel on his wing?

Of course our wing depth is better, everything about our wings top to bottom are far better then what they have, but like I said, having 2 PPG frnachise centers helps mitigate the blow. They definitely have to upgrade.

I think everyone knows full-well about their back-end problems, I didn't bring it up because they're not part of the comparable that I originally brought up.

I'm sure every center would love to have Kessel on the wing as much as every winger would love to have Crosby as their center. Again, that's not what I was talking about though.

 

[The Blue Devil]

Bozak is a positive influence on the team. It really appears some posters are fixated on the fact he wasn't an over-hyped high draft pick Big Name player.

And FWIW despite the loud bleatings of the the negative crowd they're getting crushed in the poll.

When has anyone talked about whether he was drafted or not? No one's brought that up except you. We're fixated on the fact that he's getting opportunities that he doesn't deserve. While he's not a negative influence, he's not exactly the type of player you want out their when down a goal or on a PP.

 

[leafstilldeath*]

Cross posting from another thread incase some people mioght want to answer it here...

To all the Bozak Fanboys/Fangirls, just answer the following:

Care to list the players you think Bozak is better than playing with the star player?

List the best forward on team and his line mates who are worse than or equal to Bozak. Go ahead...

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Cam Charron did an excellent job of summarizing the numbers here.

and:

Bozak has played 584:20 in his career at even strength sans Kessel and has just three goals and eight points. In that stretch, the puck is in the Leafs opposition's end just 43.6% of the time and the Leafs have scored just 36.4% of all the goals scored. Bozak's goal rate increases by 111% and his points rate increases by 103% when he plays alongside Kessel.

Comparatively, when Kessel is out with Mikhail Grabovski, or Nazem Kadri, or any one of the fine young centremen in the employ of the Maple Leafs over the last four seasons such as Matt Stajan, John Mitchell or David Steckel, Toronto's actually a plus-possession team, meaning, they take more shots than they give up.

Kessel's point rates are similar, presumably because it wasn't really until this year that he started generating a tonne of assists. But when somebody other than Bozak is setting him up, his scoring increases by 26%.

Or, if you prefer, David Johnston Here and:

When Phil Kessel and Tyler Bozak are on the ice together they are not even breaking even. When Tyler Bozak is on the ice without Kessel they are significantly worse. Individually, Tyler Bozak has scored just 3 of his 26 5v5 goals (11.5%) and 8 of his 68 points (11.8%) over the previous 3 seasons when separated from Kessel despite playing nearly 20% of his ice time apart from Kessel. When not with Kessel his goal and point production drops significantly and as we know from above it wasn’t all that impressive to start with.

Not shown are Phil Kessel’s numbers when he isn’t playing with Tyler Bozak but they are generally better than when they are together. Phil Kessel when not playing with Tyler Bozak has a GF% of 50.4% and a CF% of 51.5% over the previous 3 seasons. Tyler Bozak appears to be a drag on Kessel’s offense.

The only argument you can for keeping Bozak is that the Kessel-Bozak-Lupul/JVR line has been productive and is working so why break them up. To me that argument only works when Bozak is making $1.5M and is not a significant drag on the salary cap but you can’t be paying a player $3.5-4M to essentially be a place holder between Kessel and Lupul/JVR.

I stopped reading when you said Cam Charron.

 

[Wheels]

So you are saying that Kessel, JVR and Lupuls success have been an absolute fluke and Bozak has had no bearing on any of it?

Your reading comprehension skills are atrocious.

Kessel and Lupul are good players. They are going to play well regardless of who they are playing with. However, if they play with other good players, they will themselves likely play better.

Bozak is not a good player. When put on the ice with players like Kessel and Lupul who are way better than he is, his lack of skill is more hidden since he doesn't have to do as much.

I believe (strongly) Kessel would do better playing alongside a more talented C such as Kadri or, yes, Grabovski, than with Kessel. Not only that, the stats agree with me - Kessel's goals-per-game on average has been 0.3 higher (a significant number) when playing with anyone else besides Bozak.

The question you should be asking is how good could Kessel be if playing alongside a competent centre.

 

[Wheels]

I stopped reading when you said Cam Charron.

Forget the editorializing then and just look at the numbers. They're very straightforward. Or did you stop reading because the numbers don't agree with your predetermined narrative?

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Kessel creates his own offence, he is not a player that needs another player to prop him up. He has been plenty good with either Lupul, JVR, Kulemin, or even Joey Crabb as his linemates. But he has been most effective playing with one Center in Toronto. Bozak, this is indisputable once he committed to a 200 ft game.

 

[The Caveman]

Question is how many more goals against would kessel and lupul have if Bozak wasn't on that line. I'm fine with Bozak. I wish he were more talented offensively, but to say he is useless is just ridiculous.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Forget the editorializing then and just look at the numbers. They're very straightforward. Or did you stop reading because the numbers don't agree with your predetermined narrative?

I know what this guy is about and I know he is an analytics so called self proclaimed guru. I suggest, let's be nice urge you to watch hockey and not read charts or bar graphs to draw conclusions about hockey. Charron does seem weary of late, too many battles with true hockey followers that understand and watch the game that call him out while he continues to push his analytics agenda on the internet.

 

[Penalty Kill Icing*]

Question is how many more goals against would kessel and lupul have if Bozak wasn't on that line. I'm fine with Bozak. I wish he were more talented offensively, but to say he is useless is just ridiculous.

Your Patrice Bergeron mini has been a minus player in his entire career. Please stop overrating his defensive capabilities.

Kessel, Lupul would've been just fine. I don't see some other center doing far worse job than what Bozak does defensively.

 

[The Caveman]

Kessel, Lupul would've been just fine. I don't see some other center doing far worse job than what Bozak does defensively.

No, he is not Bergeron, but neither is most centers in the league. Your assumption that Kessel and Lupul would be just fine is based on what? Tea leaves? Kessel is at least back checking now, but Bozak does get back, and does do a good job in that regard.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Your Patrice Bergeron mini has been a minus player in his entire career. Please stop overrating his defensive capabilities.

Kessel, Lupul would've been just fine. I don't see some other center doing far worse job than what Bozak does defensively.

Almost every player to have played with Phil Kessel during his time in Toronto has been a minus player, again why do you single out Bozak? Clearly it is not easy playing with a fwd that is up the ice most of the time trying to create scoring chances.

 

[Penalty Kill Icing*]

No, he is not Bergeron, but neither is most centers in the league. Your assumption that Kessel and Lupul would be just fine is based on what? Tea leaves? Kessel is at least back checking now, but Bozak does get back, and does do a good job in that regard.

YOU are assuming that Kessel and Lupul would be worse off without him. Put in Bolland instead and he can provide similar offense AND play better defense than Bozak.

He is miscast as a top line center, and as long as he is such, he will continue to be a negative influence.

 

[bruyns]

Kessel creates his own offence, he is not a player that needs another player to prop him up. He has been plenty good with either Lupul, JVR, Kulemin, or even Joey Crabb as his linemates. But he has been most effective playing with one Center in Toronto. Bozak, this is indisputable once he committed to a 200 ft game.

How is it indisputable Kessel has been most effective playing with Bozak?

He has had limited opportunities to play with other Cs and as another poster already told you his goals per game is increased when he doesn't play with Bozak.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

How is it indisputable Kessel has been most effective playing with Bozak?

He has had limited opportunities to play with other Cs and as another poster already told you his goals per game is increased when he doesn't play with Bozak.

Connolly, Steckel, Lombardi, Mitchell, Stajan, Grabo, all have played with Kessel off the top of my head, Colborne for a game too I recall.

And Kessel has been the most complete player playing with Bozak. There's a reason why Kessel likes playing with him, if he didn't I am sure we would have about it by now.

 

[The Caveman]

How is it indisputable Kessel has been most effective playing with Bozak?

He has had limited opportunities to play with other Cs and as another poster already told you his goals per game is increased when he doesn't play with Bozak.

Considering kessel's stats over the last few years, he has done pretty well with Bozak. Would hardly characterize that as a negative influence. His Pk is pretty good as well.

 

[Hyperglide]

I picked neutral as he doesn't help nor hinder a win. He's just... there.

Overrated and not worth his salary. He was signed to bring Kessel back. He's a good defensive forward and alright on the dot but he is a terrible playmaker and can't finish around the net at all. How many tap in goals has he missed already these 4 games?

 

[Preisst*]

When has anyone talked about whether he was drafted or not? No one's brought that up except you. We're fixated on the fact that he's getting opportunities that he doesn't deserve. While he's not a negative influence, he's not exactly the type of player you want out their when down a goal or on a PP.

I'm not going to go dig up old posts that we both know exist. It's a fact. I didn't say it was the only reason Bozak is a whipping boy but it certainly is there.

 

[Diatomic]

Negative because he's playing on the top-line 25mins a game contributing nothing but a 15foot goal from a nice feed from Kessel every now and then.

Positive if he was demoted to the 3rd line playing 15mins a game.

Unfortunately the Positive will never occur, so I'll always have a negative image on Bozak.

 

[Wheels]

I know what this guy is about and I know he is an analytics so called self proclaimed guru. I suggest, let's be nice urge you to watch hockey and not read charts or bar graphs to draw conclusions about hockey. Charron does seem weary of late, too many battles with true hockey followers that understand and watch the game that call him out while he continues to push his analytics agenda on the internet.

Gotta love Luddite hockey fans! I imagine you watch a baseball game and believe that the most important stats to judge players are pitcher wins and RBI?

 

[egd27]

Cam Charron did an excellent job of summarizing the numbers here.

and:

Bozak has played 584:20 in his career at even strength sans Kessel and has just three goals and eight points.

Would that mean 8 points in just under the equivalent of 10 even strength only games?

Do you want to use another argument because it seems to me that would put him on a pace for a 25 goal and a 67 point season without any PP time. (or a PPG game winger)

That would have been good enough for placing in the top 10 for all centres during the last full season.

Seems pretty good.

 

[ALine]

Just considering centers we currently have, in a perfect world, Kadri, our most skilled C, would be with Kessel, our most skilled winger. But in reality, Kadri is just not quite there yet to take Bozaks place.

Carlyle stresses the safe plays, minimizing turnovers, and likes to have a lot of confidence in his face off man. While not being great offensively, Bozak plays Caryles way, and is his most reliable go-to for faceoffs.

We know what Bozak is. He is a place holder. Can play adequately on the top line, getting by on his defensive awareness, and faceoff ability. Reliable PKer, as well.
Not great offensively, not a game breaker.

That is how I see the Bozak situation. Holding down the fort, for now, on the top line. He is rather neutral in my eyes. Kadri has all the skill in the world, but needs to round out his defensive game, and keep working on faceoffs. Then, once he is really ready, will be playing with Kessel.

If/when Bozak loses his top minutes, if he can keep up his good defensive game And PKing, he will still have a place on this team. We don't need to force things.

 

[sommervr]

Bozak is a steaming pile of dog crap

 

[The Blue Devil]

Almost every player to have played with Phil Kessel during his time in Toronto has been a minus player, again why do you single out Bozak? Clearly it is not easy playing with a fwd that is up the ice most of the time trying to create scoring chances.

Because Kessel's worst season +/- was -24 compared to Bozaks' -29.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Because Kessel's worst season +/- was -24 compared to Bozaks' -29.

I see your point, Sort of like when Kessel was -12 and Savard was -19 when Dave Lewis coached the Bruins.

Bad teams have a way of distorting plus minuses.

Look at Chara and Bergeron's minuses that year.