Tyler Bozak - Positive or Negative impact on the team?

Wheels

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Aug 22, 2004
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Its really cant be any crystal clear than it already is.

-Kessel top 10 scoring 2 years running with Bozak in the middle
-JVR best PPG and stats thus far in his career with Bozak in the middle
-Lupul had a career year with Bozak in the middle

Are you suggesting there was no chemistry there and Bozak had nothing to do with the successes of all three players? Not a trick question here, just so you know?

Sigh.

Again, the stats show that Kessel has scored more goals, on average, WITHOUT Bozak on the ice than with him.

Ergo, if Bozak's "chemistry" with Kessel was the key, Kessel would score more often when playing with Bozak. But he doesn't. In fact, for all the naysayers who said Kessel and Grabo could never play together, Kessel's point production was higher with Grabo on the ice than with Bozak.

The stats also show that when playing without Kessel, Bozak's scoring numbers fall off a cliff. To wit, Kessel plays just as well or better regardless of whether Bozak is on the ice, whereas Bozak without Kessel is basically useless. The logical conclusion to make is that Bozak needs Kessel to be even moderately effective whereas Kessel can play with anyone.

Which says to me that Bozak is basically a replaceable part and not a true #2C (let alone a #1).

If he was a dynamite defender, physical player, leader, faceoff man (he's decent but his status as a faceoff superstar is vastly overblown), fine. But he's not. He's mediocre to decent defensively and above-average on the draw. He adds no physical component whatsoever. He's just...there.

I don't hate Bozak...I just hate the idea that he adds value to the Leafs rather than takes up cap space/roster space that could have/should have been better spent elsewhere.
 

The Winter Soldier

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Apr 4, 2011
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Wrong - it's the Pro-Bozak camp that are forgetting that we live in a cap world.

Let's go ahead and be realistic, as your post suggests that we should:

90% of the current Bozak bashers, would be totally content with having Bozak on this team so long as his cap hit was significantly less. He has qualities. So does Jay McClement.

The difference is how much they are paid. Bozak is extremely overpaid for being an average NHLer. He gets paid like someone who should be offering more than just faceoffs and the occasional breakaway goal.

But you were ok having a #3C paid at 5.5 last year. Bozak does not hurt our team, surely you can see how much he was missed when he was out in game 7. When we had to rely on others to close out the game, they couldn't get it done.
 

Wheels

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Aug 22, 2004
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But you were ok having a #3C paid at 5.5 last year. Bozak does not hurt our team, surely you can see how much he was missed when he was out in game 7. When we had to rely on others to close out the game, they couldn't get it done.

You know the Leafs did win Game 6 without Mr. Indispensable Tyler Bozak, right?
 

The Winter Soldier

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Apr 4, 2011
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You know the Leafs did win Game 6 without Mr. Indispensable Tyler Bozak, right?

Would they have gotten to game 6 without Bozak? Scored a Big goal and won a faceoff in final min?

Yeah I would say that is a pretty indispenable contribution.
 

New Liskeard

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Jul 7, 2007
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Sigh.

Again, the stats show that Kessel has scored more goals, on average, WITHOUT Bozak on the ice than with him.

Ergo, if Bozak's "chemistry" with Kessel was the key, Kessel would score more often when playing with Bozak. But he doesn't. In fact, for all the naysayers who said Kessel and Grabo could never play together, Kessel's point production was higher with Grabo on the ice than with Bozak.

The stats also show that when playing without Kessel, Bozak's scoring numbers fall off a cliff. To wit, Kessel plays just as well or better regardless of whether Bozak is on the ice, whereas Bozak without Kessel is basically useless. The logical conclusion to make is that Bozak needs Kessel to be even moderately effective whereas Kessel can play with anyone.

Which says to me that Bozak is basically a replaceable part and not a true #2C (let alone a #1).

If he was a dynamite defender, physical player, leader, faceoff man (he's decent but his status as a faceoff superstar is vastly overblown), fine. But he's not. He's mediocre to decent defensively and above-average on the draw. He adds no physical component whatsoever. He's just...there.

I don't hate Bozak...I just hate the idea that he adds value to the Leafs rather than takes up cap space/roster space that could have/should have been better spent elsewhere.

Feel free to post these stats you speak of, and clearly the sample sizes will be similar in order to make an accurate assessment? This i'm sure holds true also with JVR and Lupul, and you have the same sample size tosupport this as well? I dont think the argument is that Bozak is a great number 1 center, or even a number 1 center at the NHL level. Its interesting that history shows that with Bozak as the center, the top line has always been very productive offensively, and wingers have floursihed with him there. How much effect Bozak has is certainlly open for discusion, put to pretend that Bozak being the common denominator here, has not had a positive impact in this position, whether he is the right man for the job, is ignoring the blatantly obvious. Its no different than when Phaneuf has a bad game, or any player for that matter does, the incessant chirping complains, yet magically disapears when they play well? Stange how that happens isn't it?
 

The Blue Devil

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Nov 9, 2009
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I don't believe that's what he was insinuating at all.

Basically take Bozak off of our 8 million dollar a year winger;s line who was top 10 scoring with Bozak in the middle 2 years running, with the hopes of someone else doing a better job? :laugh:

Clearly.

He's basically saying that there is no one else at least on our team capable of helping Phil get to his top 10 in scoring. Do you agree with that?

We have a center that was capable of making Orr look like a passible 3rd line winger last year, could Bozak do that?
 

The Blue Devil

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Nov 9, 2009
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Who said anything about chemistry?
Has our first line been a concern AT ALL with Bozak there? Or have they been one of the most productive?

last night was a goiod chance for him to step up with JVR not playing well, it is after all the center's job to help alleviate his wingers, at least that's what most who called Grabo out said.
 

The Blue Devil

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Nov 9, 2009
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I think he is the ONLY player who hasn't been demoted from the 1st line (Kessel line) in his entire tenure as a Leafs head coach for Carlyle. Where is the accountability that you preach Mr Carlyle?

Hypocrisy at its finest.

Honestly, there were times last year when we were down, but instead of playing the hot Kadri on the PP or last little bit of the game he still insisted on Bozak who doesn't do much in the offensive zone and we usually ended up losing. Hell even this year our PP has been productive without him on the ice to "take the faceoff".
 

Eb

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Feb 27, 2011
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Goodness.

I would say Bozak is the most under appreciated player on the team by a good margin.

Coming second/third would be Kulemin/Mcclement.
 

The Blue Devil

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Nov 9, 2009
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out of how many games? Four? How many games have we had trouble scoring in out of the four?
Where did we finish offensively last year again?

Yup, last night's game was the norm, not the exception, youre right.

We could've easily lost the game on Sat because Bozak whiffed on a wide-open net.
 

Eb

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Feb 27, 2011
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We could've easily lost the game on Sat because Bozak whiffed on a wide-open net.

Come on Blue Devil. You've provided good arguments to this Bozak discussion over the months but this is outrageous pointing out a single OFFENSIVE play, that lost us the game.

If he turned over the puck in our zone and lead to a goal in the final minute, okay, reasonable.
 

The Apologist

Apologizing for Leaf garbage since 1979
Oct 16, 2007
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Clearly.

He's basically saying that there is no one else at least on our team capable of helping Phil get to his top 10 in scoring. Do you agree with that?

We have a center that was capable of making Orr look like a passible 3rd line winger last year, could Bozak do that?


Or he could be saying something like:
"Our first line was fine offensively, lets change it up for the sake of changing it up, and hope that Phil Kessel improves his already awesome stats for the sake of it?"
That's how I took it.
 

The Blue Devil

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Nov 9, 2009
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Its really cant be any crystal clear than it already is.

-Kessel top 10 scoring 2 years running with Bozak in the middle
-JVR best PPG and stats thus far in his career with Bozak in the middle
-Lupul had a career year with Bozak in the middle

Are you suggesting there was no chemistry there and Bozak had nothing to do with the successes of all three players? Not a trick question here, just so you know?

Kind of like how Kunitz makes Crosby an above PPG player. If not for kunitz Crosby may be lucky to even hit 75+ points(in 82 games).
 

Wheels

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Aug 22, 2004
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Would they have gotten to game 6 without Bozak? Scored a Big goal and won a faceoff in final min?

Yeah I would say that is a pretty indispenable contribution.

Your comment was that the Leafs lost game 7 without Bozak. My rejoinder is they won game 6 without him. Simple as that.
 

New Liskeard

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Jul 7, 2007
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Clearly.

He's basically saying that there is no one else at least on our team capable of helping Phil get to his top 10 in scoring. Do you agree with that?

We have a center that was capable of making Orr look like a passible 3rd line winger last year, could Bozak do that?

Hard to say with any certaintly than another center on the team would not do as well as Bozak. But the reality is, whether the wrong man for the job or not, the first line is doing well, and has for a long time, with Bozak in the middle. It is what it is, despite him not being the player many would like to have there. I question what a number 1 center would do for the team. Certainlly offence would go up, and maybe even springboard Kessel in the tier of top players in the NHL. Would be nice, and wouldnt complain one bit, but is that what this team is really lacking, and what is holding this team back? I say no. IMO stability and consistency in the net (more than just 2 NHL games) and addressing the D is far more important than adding a number 1 center and providing more offence.
 

Ed Belfour

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Nov 9, 2011
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Bozak simply is not a top 6 forward in the NHL, simple as that. If he was getting paid a couple mil while centering our 3rd line, great, but he's taking up a lot of cap and is a dead weight on our first line. Kessel plays at a high speed and Bozak just is a black hole of offense. Numerous times a game Bozak receives a great pass and just bobbles it..he doesn't have much skill.
 

Wheels

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Aug 22, 2004
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Feel free to post these stats you speak of, and clearly the sample sizes will be similar in order to make an accurate assessment? This i'm sure holds true also with JVR and Lupul, and you have the same sample size tosupport this as well? I dont think the argument is that Bozak is a great number 1 center, or even a number 1 center at the NHL level. Its interesting that history shows that with Bozak as the center, the top line has always been very productive offensively, and wingers have floursihed with him there. How much effect Bozak has is certainlly open for discusion, put to pretend that Bozak being the common denominator here, has not had a positive impact in this position, whether he is the right man for the job, is ignoring the blatantly obvious.

Cam Charron did an excellent job of summarizing the numbers here.

and:

Bozak has played 584:20 in his career at even strength sans Kessel and has just three goals and eight points. In that stretch, the puck is in the Leafs opposition's end just 43.6% of the time and the Leafs have scored just 36.4% of all the goals scored. Bozak's goal rate increases by 111% and his points rate increases by 103% when he plays alongside Kessel.

Comparatively, when Kessel is out with Mikhail Grabovski, or Nazem Kadri, or any one of the fine young centremen in the employ of the Maple Leafs over the last four seasons such as Matt Stajan, John Mitchell or David Steckel, Toronto's actually a plus-possession team, meaning, they take more shots than they give up.

Kessel's point rates are similar, presumably because it wasn't really until this year that he started generating a tonne of assists. But when somebody other than Bozak is setting him up, his scoring increases by 26%.


Or, if you prefer, David Johnston Here and:

When Phil Kessel and Tyler Bozak are on the ice together they are not even breaking even. When Tyler Bozak is on the ice without Kessel they are significantly worse. Individually, Tyler Bozak has scored just 3 of his 26 5v5 goals (11.5%) and 8 of his 68 points (11.8%) over the previous 3 seasons when separated from Kessel despite playing nearly 20% of his ice time apart from Kessel. When not with Kessel his goal and point production drops significantly and as we know from above it wasn’t all that impressive to start with.

Not shown are Phil Kessel’s numbers when he isn’t playing with Tyler Bozak but they are generally better than when they are together. Phil Kessel when not playing with Tyler Bozak has a GF% of 50.4% and a CF% of 51.5% over the previous 3 seasons. Tyler Bozak appears to be a drag on Kessel’s offense.

The only argument you can for keeping Bozak is that the Kessel-Bozak-Lupul/JVR line has been productive and is working so why break them up. To me that argument only works when Bozak is making $1.5M and is not a significant drag on the salary cap but you can’t be paying a player $3.5-4M to essentially be a place holder between Kessel and Lupul/JVR.
 
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New Liskeard

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Jul 7, 2007
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Kind of like how Kunitz makes Crosby an above PPG player. If not for kunitz Crosby may be lucky to even hit 75+ points(in 82 games).

I think that is fair. But does that mean he shouldnt play there, because he is playing over his head, or keep things as they are (unless something better comes along) because they work. I believe Kunitz benefits significantly more than Bozak with Kessel, but I see your point. I'm sure Pens fans are not complaining about Kunitz, or even Neal for that matter piggy backing Malkin, but at the end of the day it works, and they are winning and that is all that matters.
 

New Liskeard

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Jul 7, 2007
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Cam Charron did an excellent job of summarizing the numbers here.

and:

Bozak has played 584:20 in his career at even strength sans Kessel and has just three goals and eight points. In that stretch, the puck is in the Leafs opposition's end just 43.6% of the time and the Leafs have scored just 36.4% of all the goals scored. Bozak's goal rate increases by 111% and his points rate increases by 103% when he plays alongside Kessel.

Comparatively, when Kessel is out with Mikhail Grabovski, or Nazem Kadri, or any one of the fine young centremen in the employ of the Maple Leafs over the last four seasons such as Matt Stajan, John Mitchell or David Steckel, Toronto's actually a plus-possession team, meaning, they take more shots than they give up.

Kessel's point rates are similar, presumably because it wasn't really until this year that he started generating a tonne of assists. But when somebody other than Bozak is setting him up, his scoring increases by 26%.

So you are saying that Kessel, JVR and Lupuls success have been an absolute fluke and Bozak has had no bearing on any of it?
 

The Blue Devil

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Nov 9, 2009
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Or he could be saying something like:
"Our first line was fine offensively, lets change it up for the sake of changing it up, and hope that Phil Kessel improves his already awesome stats for the sake of it?"
That's how I took it.

To be quite honest, it's not so much the playing on the 1st line that bothers me as much as the 1st PP unit. Him playing on line 1 bugs me, I just find it outrageous to be putting him in a situation where you should be loading up all the talent you can to score a goal. We don't need his safe, defensive plays on the PP, we need someone that makes higher risk plays that lead to better offensive chances.
 

Ed Belfour

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Nov 9, 2011
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everything quantifiable says otherwise, but carry on ;)

Watch him play hockey. Go find all the advanced statistics you want, he isn't talented enough offensively and his faceoff expertise is greatly exaggerated. Other than him and Kessel being besties, he brings nothing to that 1st line. Hell, even Bolland up there would be an improvement.

Bozak playing over 23 minutes and in the game whenever we need a crucial goal is just insane for a guy who has little to no offensive talent.
 

The Blue Devil

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Nov 9, 2009
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I think that is fair. But does that mean he shouldnt play there, because he is playing over his head, or keep things as they are (unless something better comes along) because they work. I believe Kunitz benefits significantly more than Bozak with Kessel, but I see your point. I'm sure Pens fans are not complaining about Kunitz, or even Neal for that matter piggy backing Malkin, but at the end of the day it works, and they are winning and that is all that matters.

They're not complaining because they have 2 above PPG franchise centers that more than make up for their wing depth. My biggest gripe is Bozak on the top PP.
 

The Apologist

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They're not complaining because they have 2 above PPG franchise centers that more than make up for their wing depth. My biggest gripe is Bozak on the top PP.

Actually Pens fans complain a lot about their wing depth. They have two PPG centers, but I would argue that our wings are much much better.

They also complain a lot about their defense and goaltending. They have a lot of money tied up in those two centers. Wonder why they are so adamant at not upgrading their wings like they obviously should?

Don't you think Crosby would love to have a Kessel on his wing?
 

Preisst*

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Jun 11, 2008
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Bozak is a positive influence on the team. It really appears some posters are fixated on the fact he wasn't an over-hyped high draft pick Big Name player.

And FWIW despite the loud bleatings of the the negative crowd they're getting crushed in the poll.
 

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