Turncoats in International Hockey

VladNYC*

Guest
I'm Jewish, does that mean I'm not an American?

Do you have a learning disability?

I explained that is doesn't work like that in the west because there is no such thing as an American ethnicity, just citizenship. Everyone who is a citizen in America is American. Your American passport says you are American. If you were born any where else, your Russian passport for example, would say Jew under nationality.

This is corroborated by science in terms that you can get a DNA test that will tell you that genetically you are polish or Ashkenazi jewish or Russian but no DNA test in the world can tell you that you are Canadian or American.
 

Hasbro

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Apr 1, 2004
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Do you have a learning disability?

I explained that is doesn't work like that in the west because there is no such thing as an American ethnicity, just citizenship. Everyone who is a citizen in America is American. Your American passport says you are American. If you were born any where else, your Russian passport for example, would say Jew under nationality.

This is corroborated by science in terms that you can get a DNA test that will tell you that genetically you are polish or Ashkenazi jewish or Russian but no DNA test in the world can tell you that you are Canadian or American.

America was a country before Germany was one, yet Jews who lived their prior to it being a nation state aren't German, while Jews that came late to the west are?
 

VladNYC*

Guest
America was a country before Germany was one, yet Jews who lived their prior to it being a nation state aren't German, while Jews that came late to the west are?

The Germans have been around since 80 BC from recorded history alone. Germans as a people were talked about as far back as the ancient Greeks.

You don't even understand the simplest of concepts.
 
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Hasbro

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You are an idiot in the strictest sense.

The Germans have been around since 80 BC from recorded history alone. Germans as a people were talked about as far back as the ancient Greeks.

You don't even understand the simplest of concepts, if i was you i would keep my mouth shut.
Recent German national identity is in large part a contrivance and a hodge podge of said concepts.
 

VladNYC*

Guest
Recent German national identity is in large part a contrivance and a hodge podge of said concepts.

Recent, past or present German identity has nothing to do with any thing except bloodline. Turks in Germany aren't Germans. They are Turks.
 

Eagle Eye Cherry

guitar player
Feb 19, 2006
6,345
2
Montreal
Dear Canada,
Can we have all the Canadians playing in our Swiss League? That inclues the great Alexandre Daigle, Simon Gamache and many more!

Regards,
.Ambassador of Switzerland
 

The Nemesis

Semper Tyrannus
Apr 11, 2005
87,955
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Robert Reichel's brother Martin plays internationally for Germany. In fact, Robert (with the Czech team) and Martin (with the German team) have faced each other a few times.
 

TheMoreYouKnow

Registered User
May 3, 2007
16,384
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38° N 77° W
It's obvious that Europeans and North Americans would think differently about this subject. In North America nationality tends to be defined by birth and/or residence whereas in Europe ethnicity and cultural heritage is given much more importance particularly in Central and Eastern Europe. Most European nation states are based in concept and ideal on the idea of representing a specific ethnic group ergo identification with a country often means identification with an ethnic group as well. That has changed somewhat in the age of global work migration at least in official terms in some countries but it's still a view widely held nevertheless amongst people.

The Nabokov case is particularly interesting of course because Kazakhstan was once part of the Soviet Union which ultimately was more of a Greater Russia than a true Union of the different peoples. It was in the interest of the Kremlin to place as many Russians as possible in various non-Russian Soviet republics to further "russify" those areas. Additionally it was simply a matter of course for members of different ethnicities to be moved around the Soviet Union as the interests of the state determined and since Russians made up the great majority of the population of the USSR they were particularly spread around via Army posts, government authorities etc. The large Russian minorities in many former Soviet republics today are testament to that. The generally Russian character of the Soviet Union and its hostility to many of the non-Russian cultures meant that the Russians in other Soviet Republics would have no desire or need to adapt to the cultures of the native peoples in those areas and the fact that the locals looked upon them as the Russians as well and viewed them with some suspicion would mean that sticking together and looking to Moscow was however a necessity. This did not change magically when the Soviet Union collapsed obviously so it's hardly surprising that Nabokov as a Russian whose parents settled in a non-Russian Soviet area would identify as Russian and hold allegiance to the Russian cause.

The identity of Germany is generally traced back to the treaty of Verdun that split the Frankish realm into a Western, Central and Eastern part. The Western part pretty continuously developed into France and the Eastern part developed pretty continuously into Germany. This was around 900 AD if my memory does not betray me. This date is chosen because it was the earliest political definition of something of a French and a German identity which sources confirm already existed to some degree on a folk level at the time. The "Holy Roman Empire of the German nation" became the main political representation of German identity in the following 800 years or so, in spite of the fact that there were non-German areas under its control and many of its rulers did not necessarily identify as German (but such were the ways of monarchy in Europe at the time). That is why the Nazi realm was called the Third Reich with the 1871 creation being the Second Reich and the Holy Roman Empire being the First Reich. Now the Holy Roman Empire was never a very stable entity and indeed always subject to upheaval. But it is in fact partially this political confusion in the areas populated by Germans which led to a strong German nationalism based on shared blood and culture, not citizenship (and that goes back at least to the 17th century). People living in the Rhineland or Brandenburg could tell that they shared a language and heritage but not a political bond as of yet, so the idea of a German nation was formed out of the desire to unite all people who shared that language and heritage. This is not unique to Germany either of course. As a result however to this day many Germans tend to consider only those Germans who are native speakers of German and who appear to be of German ethnicity due to their looks and/or name for example as both are taken as indicators of heritage.

Back to hockey however, almost all of the second and third tier countries in Europe use Canadian-born players extensively. In some cases this is based on their heritage, I remember various Italian-Canadians playing for Italy and German-Canadians playing for Germany. In other cases however it's a mere case of a guy having played forever in their local league and being a relatively good player (but not good enough for Team Canada) which leads the respective coaches to use them for their national teams. That is of course nothing but opportunism but nobody cares because those teams tend to be desperate for talent and it's not like Canada suffers for it. This has little with ideas of nationality to do though as it's really just about the teams and their attempt to get a decent squad together.
 

Mr Kanadensisk

Registered User
May 13, 2005
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By North American standards if an ethnic Swede from Ã…land played for Sweden they would be a "turn coat".
 

Metallian*

Registered User
Dec 27, 2005
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I'm no world history buff, but I don't think that country is still around.

so nationalities are grandfathered to modern day?

so you, a canadian. lets say Mexico annexed canada, and you were living in England

would that make you Mexican? would you feel Mexican?
 

Metallian*

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Dec 27, 2005
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there is no such thing as an American ethnicity, just citizenship.


tell that to someone whos family has lived in the South for generations :shakehead or a New Yorker or Southie from Boston

everyones roots, everywhere, anywhere in the world...can technically be an "immigrant"

many may be immigrants, but there is a distinct ethnic development from state to state, and especially in certain regions
 

Den

Registered User
Aug 9, 2005
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www.recdir.com
I bet he watched "60 minutes" about something like this

My family was moved around the USSR in the interest of the State, so first we went to Siberia where the state interest resulted in my parents salary being trippled. Then we returned to my fathers hometown in Moldova to russify the area
in the interest of the Kremlin. And wasn't that some mighty suspicion that we were looked upon with by the locals whom we treated with particular hostility :D
 

hdw

Registered User
Jul 9, 2006
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Stockholm
By North American standards if an ethnic Swede from Ã…land played for Sweden they would be a "turn coat".

An ethnically swedish finnish citizen cannot play for sweden without first getting a new citizenship.

Diffrent ethnicity isn't the same as dual citizenship, and national teams are based on citizenship.

And for those that either have two or gain a new one there's lots of reasons for playing under their 'other' nationality.

Like moving to the new country as young, or not being good enough to be considered on their old team, or those with two simply feeling more at home in one of them.

Take Alexander Steen for instance.
Born in Canada and spending most of his childhood and youth there, most likely with frequent summers in sweden, then playing junior hockey in sweden before coming back to Canada.

He has stated that he feels just as Canadian as he feels Swedish, but since he played junior hockey in Sweden it felt natural to play on the Swedish junior team when invited.
 

Mr Kanadensisk

Registered User
May 13, 2005
3,013
12
An ethnically swedish finnish citizen cannot play for sweden without first getting a new citizenship.

Diffrent ethnicity isn't the same as dual citizenship, and national teams are based on citizenship.

And for those that either have two or gain a new one there's lots of reasons for playing under their 'other' nationality.

If Ã…land produced an elite athlete, Sweden would give him a passport faster than I can sing Helan GÃ¥r!
 

Hullin Brett

Registered User
May 3, 2007
34
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Tommy Salo's parents are finnish. Good thing for Finland is they raised their son to be swedish.

There is no nation called America. I hate it when people say "Im from America". What's that? South-America?
 

Matti_A

Registered User
Sep 21, 2005
2,023
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Tommy Salo's parents are finnish. Good thing for Finland is they raised their son to be swedish.

There is no nation called America. I hate it when people say "Im from America". What's that? South-America?

Tomas Sandström and Arto Blomsten were both born on the west-coast of Finland, were a large part of the swedish speaking minority of Finland reside, but represented Sweden.
 

Hullin Brett

Registered User
May 3, 2007
34
0
Well "I'm from the United States of America" is quite a mouthful.

And calling them 'Ussians' sounds distinctivly silly.

Well how about " I'm from USA", I think everybody knows what USA means. I know lot of people who calls them yankees (including my self). I'm not sure is that an offending word in english but in Finland saying "jenkki" its quite common.
 

hdw

Registered User
Jul 9, 2006
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Stockholm
If Ã…land produced an elite athlete, Sweden would give him a passport faster than I can sing Helan GÃ¥r!

The question is rather would anyone from Ã…land actually apply for a swedish citizenship? I've always had the feeling that they're quite proud of being what they are.

As in Ã…landers first and foremost and ethnicly swedish finnish citizens after that.
 

Metallian*

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Dec 27, 2005
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There is no nation called America. I hate it when people say "Im from America". What's that? South-America?

what do you want them to say, the country's name has AMERICA in it

they are from a State of America, so to say one is "of America" is equal to being "from America"

....and who the hell would interpret "I'm from America" as being from Brazil?? :biglaugh:
 

I Ron Butterfly

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Jan 6, 2007
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Now is the Nabokov case not further boggled by the fact he played for Kazakhstan in the world juniors, which would prevent him from playing for any other country under IIHF rules?
 

hdw

Registered User
Jul 9, 2006
6,479
0
Stockholm
Now is the Nabokov case not further boggled by the fact he played for Kazakhstan in the world juniors, which would prevent him from playing for any other country under IIHF rules?

He would be able to play for Russia 4 years after the last gamefor Kazakhstan, given that a number of stuff has been fulfilled.

In according to IIHF Bylaw 204 section c:
c) When once a player has represented a country in any IIHF championship, or in the Olympic competition or in the qualification to these competitions he will not be eligible to represent another country excepting that he may apply to the IIHF to represent another country provided that (a) he is a citizen of that country, (b) he has an international transfer card that was approved and dated by the IIHF at least four years before the start of the IIHF competition in which he wishes to participate, (c) he has participated for at least four consecutive years in the national competitions of his new country during which period he has neither transferred to another country nor played ice hockey within any other country, and (d) he has not played for his previous country in an IIHF competition during this four year period. Such a change will be allowed only once in a player’s life and is final and irrevocable.

But requirement (c) looks a problem.
To me it reads like he'd have to play 4 years in RSL first.

But maybe there's some bending allowed if the case is good enough.
 

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