"Turn system" with penalties.

Discussion in 'National Hockey League Talk' started by puckyeah, Dec 9, 2014.

  1. puckyeah

    puckyeah .

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    I don't know the actual stats, hopefully someone can fill me in on this, the first penalty of the game is 50/50 meaning it could go to either team. Now, is the likelihood of the 2nd penalty of the game going to the same team? I would think the team who got the first penalty would get the power play in the game's 2nd penalty.

    If the odds are NOT 50/50 for penalty #2, is that something that bothers you from an integrity standpoint? I know you can write it off as "part of the game" and each team essentially "takes turns" getting power plays, but that give the games an air of being staged and none of us want to think these games are staged, even if its just perception.

    The standard of officiating gets higher and higher for a team who has had consecutive or 3 power plays in a row....it seems that refs are essentially "looking" to be fair and give the other guys a power play, but wouldn't the game be better if that wasn't the case?

    Is this a "Fair" system of officiating?
     
  2. Ralphy*

    Ralphy* Guest

    The rules are the rules. You break them, you get a penalty.

    People like to pretend that their teams are targeted more than others, but it's silly. Reffing is a lot harder than it looks. Most times they get it right, sometimes they get it so wrong. And yes, sometimes they try to give a "make-up" call if they screwed up really bad.

    That's really all there is to it.
     
  3. Habitant#1

    Habitant#1 Registered User

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    Penalties aren't a random flip of the coin.
     
  4. DFC

    DFC Registered User

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    I don't know about that. I'd like to see stats on which team is more likely to get a penalty depending on different conditions, like the score for instance. If my team is down by two goals, I fully expect that the next power play is coming to us. The opposite if my team is up by two. It definitely seems like refs don't like to make calls that could result in the game getting out of reach for one team or another (unless the foul is pretty obvious).

    It's not about a team getting screwed. It all comes out in the wash. But it seems like there are definite spots where you can predict which team is more likely to be the next team penalized.
     
  5. Ralphy*

    Ralphy* Guest

    While I see your point, I think it's more of a matter of the losing team typically wanting to get back in the game with more effort than the team leading wants to exert, so the winning team gets ~lazy and ends up taking a penalty.

    Of course, in games where it's like 5-0, I'm sure you're more often right, but I would also like to see the stats.
     
  6. DFC

    DFC Registered User

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    Yeah, that's a good point. But this is a spot where I think I can take my own homer glasses off, because if the score is in a certain window (2-0 or 3-0), I also expect to see my team getting away with more. Or how about if we're down by 1 with under 5 minutes remaining? In a recent game between TBL and NYR (I'm a TBL fan), NYR took a penalty in that situation and I was pretty shocked to see it because it's so rarely called.

    All I'm really saying, and I think we're all probably on the same page here, is it would be interesting to see some stats.
     
  7. heutZe

    heutZe Registered User

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    Would like to see some stats too, but I would guess that when a team is trailing by more than two goals or has taken more penalties than the other team, the next powerplay is theirs 90% of the time. It's not because they work harder or play with better effort, it is because refs, by nature, want the game to be fair and don't want to punish a team already down unless they absolutely have to.
     
  8. hyduK

    hyduK Registered User

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    Eh, disagree.

    The rules seem to change a lot depending on the scenario. Obvious example being if you're already down a man it takes a lot more to get a penalty that would make a 5 on 3.

    It all balances out over time, but the rules are hardly the rules.
     
  9. Pavels Dog

    Pavels Dog Registered User

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    Refs are human, and they get a lot of pressure from players/coaches down there on the ice. Until we replace them by robots there are going to be make-up calls and it's going to be easier for a team that has had several consecutive PPs to be called for something.

    Doesn't really bother me to be honest. In a game last week, the Wings were on the PK for about 6 straight minutes because the refs called 2 legit penalties and then added a 3rd that was a clear embellishment. Shouldn't there be a moment of hesitation for the refs as they are about to call the 3rd or 4th consecutive penalty to the same team? I think there should be.
     
  10. SnuggaRUDE

    SnuggaRUDE Registered User

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    Why? The refs are employed to whistle infractions. Not penalize based on the rate of infractions.
     
  11. puckyeah

    puckyeah .

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    This is an interesting point and sort of what i was getting at. You're a guy who follows the sport and you are thinking that its not random as to when a team will get a power play. It SHOULD be random, no matter what the score or the situation or how many penalties in a row one team had.

    Right?
     
  12. BHD

    BHD Coaching change?

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    Penalties should be called as they always have been - as they happen.
     
  13. puckyeah

    puckyeah .

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    They SHOULD be, but ARE they? Data mining could suggest otherwise. A computer nerd could crunch decades of data and determine if penalties are all random and no matter how many in a row one team gets, the next one is still 50/50.
     
  14. I Hate Chris Butler

    I Hate Chris Butler Backlund Fan Club

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    That sounds like baseless speculation to me. Correction: It is baseless speculation.

    Penalties aren't supposed to be fair. You commit an infraction: you sit in the box.

    Refs aren't perfect but they get it right more than they get it wrong.
     
  15. Samzilla

    Samzilla Prust & Dorsett are

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    False. Proof: Canucks last game against Ottawa. Canucks game against Montreal tonight.
     
  16. puckyeah

    puckyeah .

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    Its not about "getting it right" its about this question. Does it always remain 50/50 as to who is getting the next penalty (the one that hasn't happened yet) or do the refs lean towards one side or another? If the favored home team is down 2-0 with 10 mins left in the game and the road team has had the last advantage, is it still 50/50 as to who gets the next power play.

    That's the debate.
     
  17. DrVanntastic

    DrVanntastic Registered User

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    Even if the data does skew a particular direction, is that a sign the refs are leaning towards a specific team?

    Example: Team A has about twice as many PIMs heading into the third period. As the third progresses, Team B's PIMs begin to add up until the numbers are more or less equal.

    To me, that's just the law of averages catching up with Team B.
     
  18. The Nuge

    The Nuge Top 9 Forward Count - 6/9

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  19. Shareefruck

    Shareefruck Registered User

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    I definitely think the refereeing is skewed depending on the scenario rather than refs really trying to or even being instructed to entirely call it the way it is.

    Infractions are happening all game long, only blatant, obvious penalties are called regardless of the situation. There is definitely some game management going on beyond that.

    I'd be interested to see some stats to back that up, but it's clear that it's going on at least to some extent.
     
  20. Siludin

    Siludin Registered User

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    I think that it's more that there is a natural ebb and flow to the performances of both teams in a game, and most teams use similar mechanisms for reversing the flow (attempting to draw penalties, start fights, trap up the neutral zone, call time-outs, be aggressive after a penalty kill, putting out the top line, etc).

    I would guess that most minor penalties are taken by the defending team in the defending team's zone.
     
  21. Shareefruck

    Shareefruck Registered User

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    It can just as easily be argued that the team desperate to claw their way back are more willing to take risks and liberties when trying to win a puck battle whereas the team defending a lead can afford to and probably do play a more disciplined game.

    From the games I've seen, I'm pretty certain that the team clawing their way back gets away with quite a few penalties that they otherwise wouldn't. At the very least, the more borderline infractions will pretty much NEVER get called in that scenario.
     

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