Blue Jays Discussion: Turn out the lights, the season's over.

[dredeye]

Wheeler and Odorizzi over Ryu and Bumgarner. Trust me.

I've warmed to the idea of Moustakas (if he's left out in the cold again) for both the left handed bat and signal to Vlad to get his ass in shape. Dickerson is a no-brainer, so I wont waste time bringing it up again.

this x2

 

[Discoverer]

Without digging too far into the numbers, I'm not entirely convinced of Odorizzi's ability to repeat his 2019 season. Prior to that he had never been any better than an ok mid rotation starter (or quite a bit worse, in some years).

Wheeler has back-to-back 4+ fWAR seasons. Repeating that success means a lot to me.

 

[dredeye]

Sure that works in theory but not really in practice. You got to give players playing time to see what they can bring so you can determine if you have a long term piece to avoid free agency... it’s the whole point of rebuilding. Not saying give jobs to the undeserving but there are names listed on the pitching side that proved they are deserving of MLB opportunity which comes with a good amount of playing time.

It’s why we are sitting here today knowing we don’t need to fill LF or 2B. No one thought Biggio and Gurriel would be this good this early on at their respective positions but they did because we had the spots open and available for them to play and play through the pains. Biggio was struggling to start the season but adapted and went off. Both players were on pace for 3.5-4 fWAR seasons. I don’t think anyone expected Biggio to lead the Jays in fWAR at the end of the season.

To be honest I didn’t have much hope Waguespack or Zeuch would make the majors nor Kay be anything more than depth but in their brief stints last season, they proved to me they deserve a shot and they need the opportunity to thrive.

Unless we are talking Cole or Strasburg then I only have room for 1 more pitcher in the rotation because I want to give Borucki, Waguespack, Kay, Thornton, Zeuch, Pearson and others all the opportunity in the world to see if we have any building blocks. If 1-2 breakout then you have a starter making 600k with 4-7 years of control, that’s more valuable to me than a middling free agent pitcher on a 1 or 2 year deal. That’s huge money you save that can be spent elsewhere. And if all those prospects fail then you can get a middling free agent pitcher next year, they are a dime a dozen.

I think you and I have the same thoughts. I want more competition and more stability on the team to raise the floor of the 2020 Jays but I want opportunity and spots for our young players to flourish. So we can determine if we have building blocks on the pitching side like we did with the position player side with Biggio, Gurriel, Jansen and others.

I don't disagree with the sentiment of your post as I'm all for letting the youth run wild but we do need a veteran presence in the rotation that we can count on to eat some innings.

 

[canucksfan]

One thing I learned from last year, a team can never have enough starting pitching. Acquiring a player such as a Clayton Richard type doesn’t make much sense because the Jays do have a fair amount of bottom end rotation types. However, if the Jays can get two solid starters then you do so. Some of the younger guys can start in AAA.

 

[phillipmike]

I don't disagree with the sentiment of your post as I'm all for letting the youth run wild but we do need a veteran presence in the rotation that we can count on to eat some innings.

I don’t disagree. We have Anderson and Shoemaker and I’m advocating for one more. So that’s 3 of 5 spots to start the season, that should be enough veteran presence.

 

[dredeye]

I don’t disagree. We have Anderson and Shoemaker and I’m advocating for one more. So that’s 3 of 5 spots to start the season, that should be enough veteran presence.

Yea that's enough for sure. Shoemaker is a little harder for me lock in

 

[Gargyn]

I didn’t think Shoemaker was signed for next season?

 

[Discoverer]

I didn’t think Shoemaker was signed for next season?

He's eligible for arbitration. Technically they could just let him walk, but I think it's likely they bring him back.

 

[TF97]

I didn’t think Shoemaker was signed for next season?

As mentioned above, he is arbitration eligible for one more season. MLBTR has him projected to earn $3.8M which is a slight raise over the $3.5M he signed for last offseason. I would imagine that he is brought back but it is hard to confidently dedicate a rotation spot for him. He no doubt was great at the beginning of last season, but this is a guy who has only pitched 137.1 innings combined since the start of 2017. If he is healthy, then that is great, but I have my doubts.

 

[Garlando]

As mentioned above, he is arbitration eligible for one more season. MLBTR has him projected to earn $3.8M which is a slight raise over the $3.5M he signed for last offseason. I would imagine that he is brought back but it is hard to confidently dedicate a rotation spot for him. He no doubt was great at the beginning of last season, but this is a guy who has only pitched 137.1 innings combined since the start of 2017. If he is healthy, then that is great, but I have my doubts.

Great point! And while the Jays are likely to bet on Shoemaker being healthy due to a lack of many other options, a move to the bullpen may actually be a more ideal role if other options emerge or are acquired. His splitter is dope, and he could potentially see an uptick in his fastball velo in shorter stints. Both playing up would make him a potential weapon in the middle-late innings imo.

 

[TF97]

Great point! And while the Jays are likely to bet on Shoemaker being healthy due to a lack of many other options, a move to the bullpen may actually be a more ideal role if other options emerge or are acquired. His splitter is dope, and he could potentially see an uptick in his fastball velo in shorter stints. Both playing up would make him a potential weapon in the middle-late innings imo.

I agree, I could see Shoemaker becoming a weapon out of the bullpen as well because of his splitter. For his career, his batting line against through the first trip through the order is .233/.281/.379 with it getting progressively worse from there. Last season was obviously very abbreviated but he absolutely dominated the hitters the first time through the order as they hit just .163/.200/.233. Should either his health or performance falter, I think both the team and Shoemaker could benefit from a move to the bullpen. I also think that Anderson could play well as a reliever too given his fastball/change up combination, but I have faith that he can be a decent starter.

 

[jetsforever]

I doubt there's any way we could be players for a big-name FA pitcher right? (Madison, Cole, Ryu, etc.) Still, one can dream.

I wonder if there's a spot for EE, would definitely not mind him back.

 

[Discoverer]

As mentioned above, he is arbitration eligible for one more season. MLBTR has him projected to earn $3.8M which is a slight raise over the $3.5M he signed for last offseason. I would imagine that he is brought back but it is hard to confidently dedicate a rotation spot for him. He no doubt was great at the beginning of last season, but this is a guy who has only pitched 137.1 innings combined since the start of 2017. If he is healthy, then that is great, but I have my doubts.

With a Buffalo rotation that likely includes Pearson, Kay, Waguespack, Zeuch, and Reid-Foley to start the year (with a bunch of guys coming off successful seasons in AA in Diaz, Murray, Murphy, and Hatch) I actually think the Jays are in a pretty good position to hand a rotation spot to an injury-prone pitcher like Shoemaker. Not all of these guys are going to work out by any means, but even before making whatever offseason moves are still to come they're better equipped to deal with pitching injuries than they were last year just because these guys all have another year of experience (including solid major league debuts by Kay, Waguespack, and Zeuch).

 

[rojac]

Haha that's hilarious. When he says "what other teams are looking to do in free agency" he's very obviously talking about developing a plan for the offseason as it relates to the direction other teams are planning on going... not collusion.

I agree. And I think the MLBPA is using the comments to make the point that they are not going to put up with anything that even has the faintest whiff of collusion.

 

[Cor]

Devon Travis elected free agency.

 

[GoonieFace]

Can we throw a bunch of money at Rendon? I know we need pitching, but a stud 3B would be nice, than Vladdy can slide to 1st/DH. Pie in the sky most likely.

 

[BlueForever75]

Shoemaker, Andersen and Borucki are a good start to the rotation. Solid 3,4 and 5 starters as long as Shoemaker and Borucki are healthy again.

I still think we need 2 more starters for our rotation. I want to see Pearson, Kay, Wags, Zeuch and SRF develop longer at AAA. These guys should be available for spot starts at the MLB level when needed, but a regular turn in the rotation at AAA will do them all some good. It provides the Jays with depth of MLB ready guys.

If somehow the Jays can get 2 of Oriduzzi (FA), Teheran (FA), Keuchel (FA), Wacha (FA), Wheeler (FA), Pineda (FA), Salazar (FA) it would do wonders. I would target Teheran and Wacha. Players that have proven in the past to be top of the rotation guys that fit into the build we are trying to do. I would also take a flyer on Salazar a former Indian with ties to Shapiro. This would give us the innings we need at a lower price. With depth.

Teheran
Wacha
Shoemaker
Andersen
Borucki

Depth: Salazar, Wags, Kay, Pearson, SRF, Zeuch in no specific order.

As for the offense, the Jays should bring in a defensive OF with pop. Corey Dickerson comes to mind. Avasial Garcia is another. Two players that can take over in RF shifting Grichuk to center and having Gurriel in LF. Hernandez can be the 4th OF that can spell all in any position for a day of rest, speed and bat off the bench with power.

As for 1B, my heart says EE but to me that wont work he is more of a DH type at this point in his career. Sure he can play some still at 1B but it shouldn't be the type of player we target. I would say to bring Smoak bag cause hes a solid vet. But I want to see better pop there. So who would I target??? Mike Moustakis. Yes I know he plays 3B, but no harm in bring him in to put him at 1B where he has already played some games for MIL this past season. He's 31, can be played at 3B when you want to give Vladdy some rest at DH. You also protect yourself in the event that Vladdy moves to 1B fulltime. You have a replacement.

We only have 40 million committed to our roster so far. To do what I am suggesting you can do this with about another 40-50 million added in payroll. Even if we say 60 more million it still puts us at 100 million payroll for a very competitive team, that will allow your kids to still develop without taking playing time away from them. My proposed lineup:



Bichette (SS)
Gurriel (LF)
Vladdy (3B)
Moustakis (1B)
Dickerson (RF)
Grichuk (CF)
Hernandez (DH)
Jansen (C)
Biggio (2B)

Bench: Tellez (1B/DH), Drury (3B, SS, 2B, OF, 1B), McGuire (Backup Catcher), Fischer (OF (All three positions)/1B/DH), Urena (3B, SS, 2B)

Solid lineup to me. If kids can take a step and the signings we make just do what they can nothing extreme. This team can contend.

 

[Discoverer]

Shoemaker, Andersen and Borucki are a good start to the rotation. Solid 3,4 and 5 starters as long as Shoemaker and Borucki are healthy again.

I still think we need 2 more starters for our rotation. I want to see Pearson, Kay, Wags, Zeuch and SRF develop longer at AAA. These guys should be available for spot starts at the MLB level when needed, but a regular turn in the rotation at AAA will do them all some good. It provides the Jays with depth of MLB ready guys.

If somehow the Jays can get 2 of Oriduzzi (FA), Teheran (FA), Keuchel (FA), Wacha (FA), Wheeler (FA), Pineda (FA), Salazar (FA) it would do wonders. I would target Teheran and Wacha. Players that have proven in the past to be top of the rotation guys that fit into the build we are trying to do. I would also take a flyer on Salazar a former Indian with ties to Shapiro. This would give us the innings we need at a lower price. With depth.

Teheran
Wacha
Shoemaker
Andersen
Borucki

Depth: Salazar, Wags, Kay, Pearson, SRF, Zeuch in no specific order.

As for the offense, the Jays should bring in a defensive OF with pop. Corey Dickerson comes to mind. Avasial Garcia is another. Two players that can take over in RF shifting Grichuk to center and having Gurriel in LF. Hernandez can be the 4th OF that can spell all in any position for a day of rest, speed and bat off the bench with power.

As for 1B, my heart says EE but to me that wont work he is more of a DH type at this point in his career. Sure he can play some still at 1B but it shouldn't be the type of player we target. I would say to bring Smoak bag cause hes a solid vet. But I want to see better pop there. So who would I target??? Mike Moustakis. Yes I know he plays 3B, but no harm in bring him in to put him at 1B where he has already played some games for MIL this past season. He's 31, can be played at 3B when you want to give Vladdy some rest at DH. You also protect yourself in the event that Vladdy moves to 1B fulltime. You have a replacement.

We only have 40 million committed to our roster so far. To do what I am suggesting you can do this with about another 40-50 million added in payroll. Even if we say 60 more million it still puts us at 100 million payroll for a very competitive team, that will allow your kids to still develop without taking playing time away from them. My proposed lineup:



Bichette (SS)
Gurriel (LF)
Vladdy (3B)
Moustakis (1B)
Dickerson (RF)
Grichuk (CF)
Hernandez (DH)
Jansen (C)
Biggio (2B)

Bench: Tellez (1B/DH), Drury (3B, SS, 2B, OF, 1B), McGuire (Backup Catcher), Fischer (OF (All three positions)/1B/DH), Urena (3B, SS, 2B)

Solid lineup to me. If kids can take a step and the signings we make just do what they can nothing extreme. This team can contend.

You know who's better than Michael Wacha? Trent Thornton.

 

[BlueForever75]

You know who's better than Michael Wacha? Trent Thornton.

Wacha has history of being an inning eater. Hes coming off injury plagued season, but is still young and can be Buerhle type pitcher for the Jays if he returns to health.

I forgot about Thornton in my previous post. He can battle Borucki for the 5th spot in rotation.

 

[phillipmike]

Devon Travis elected free agency.

Jays officially have nothing left of the Roy Halladay trade.

Kyle Drabek; White Sox claim him off waivers
Travis D'arnaud; traded with other pieces for Dickey, Thole and Nickeas. All three granted free agency
Michael Taylor; traded for Brett Wallace, traded for Anthony Gose, traded for Devon Travis. Travis elects free agency.

 

[Discoverer]

Wacha has history of being an inning eater. Hes coming off injury plagued season, but is still young and can be Buerhle type pitcher for the Jays if he returns to health.

I forgot about Thornton in my previous post. He can battle Borucki for the 5th spot in rotation.

In his six full seasons with the Cards, Wacha cleared 140 innings twice. He doesn't have a history of eating innings and I have no idea how he can be a "Buehrle type pitcher". They're nothing alike in any way.

At 28, Wacha makes sense as a bounce-back candidate with a decent ceiling. But you don't sign a guy like that to battle for a rotation spot, not to force a young guy coming off a far better season into a battle for a rotation spot.

 

[BlueForever75]

Jays officially have nothing left of the Roy Halladay trade.

Kyle Drabek; White Sox claim him off waivers
Travis D'arnaud; traded with other pieces for Dickey, Thole and Nickeas. All three granted free agency
Michael Taylor; traded for Brett Wallace, traded for Anthony Gose, traded for Devon Travis. Travis elects free agency.

Its a damn shame that the Jays have nothing to show for probably the best pitcher in Jays history.

The Jays royally screwed up that trade. Its unfortunate. So much for AA doing all good. We should still be seeing assets from that trade in our organization either with MLB club or minor leagues. Do to all the players turning out to be nothing, this is why we are left with nothing today.

Great job.

 

[phillipmike]

Chase Anderson Brings An Improved Cutter to the Blue Jays

 

[ER89]

Devon Travis elected free agency.

Devon travis should elect for a free hospital parking pass.

 

[BlueForever75]

In his six full seasons with the Cards, Wacha cleared 140 innings twice. He doesn't have a history of eating innings and I have no idea how he can be a "Buehrle type pitcher". They're nothing alike in any way.

At 28, Wacha makes sense as a bounce-back candidate with a decent ceiling. But you don't sign a guy like that to battle for a rotation spot, not to force a young guy coming off a far better season into a battle for a rotation spot.

Thornton was way too inconsistent. Has promise but I would rather take my chances with Wacha who has pitched over 160 innings twice for the Cards and topped out at 17 wins one season. He is still only 28 and has the ability to give us the most bang for what we spend. Signing him to a 2-3 year deal would be ideal. If he can give us 140+ innings with 10+ wins, that would be great. I don't think Thornton can be counted on.