TSN Reporting hard/soft cap of 42 Mil rejected by PA

[Jaded-Fan]

Fehr is involved? Why am I not surprised?

Thinking on it, the evil pillsbury doughboy of sports would want his pudgy fingers in the pot because if hockey gets their cap that would leave baseball as the only truly screwed up sport out where a team *cough* Yankees *cough* or teams *cough* BostonChicagoSt. Louis *cough* could and will spend 5, 10, 100 times what other teams spend and still pretend that it is a sport. The pressure would be enormous for change.

 

[snakepliskin]

and that is exactly the reason why i heard fehr was involved. MLB and the NBA both have negotiations on the horizon and both are watching very closely at whats going on here.

 

[Crows*]

Pat Morris was on Vancouver radio just a few minutes ago.

ANd from waht he was saying, he truely thinks bettman and goodnow are meeting behind the scences. He seemed like he was teasing the host (arthur grifiths) and the listeners.

He also mentioned something interesting, he said that DROP DEAD DATE Is february 27th in which a hope of a 22 game season is there. Which was quite odd.

 

[hfboardsuser]

Wow, I never thought the league would actually put forth a triple-cap system like this.

I wonder if someone could explain to me why the players still care so much about arbitration under a system based on these proposed concepts. With the individual cap, it's not like their salaries are going any higher. In fact, arbitration would hurt almost every player who used it.

 

[Greschner4]

Wow, I never thought the league would actually put forth a triple-cap system like this.

I wonder if someone could explain to me why the players still care so much about arbitration under a system based on these proposed concepts. With the individual cap, it's not like their salaries are going any higher. In fact, arbitration would hurt almost every player who used it.

Arbitration is inconsistent with the "free market" the players insist they want, so they shouldn't care. If players should get everything an owner willingly pays, why should there be a system that makes an owner pay an amount decided by someone else.

On the bargaining as a whole: The players should offer the following: $55 million hard cap, UFA at 24, no arbitration. They need to change the dynamics here, or they're going to get their arses kicked.

 

[snakepliskin]

i do not think a 55 mill hard cap is going to change the dynamic thats already in place -48 mill hard cap and 35 mill soft cap ufa at 28 also a floor at 30 mill

 

[hb74147]

Well, let's see the players offered to give back 24% of their salary, change the entry level format and change the arbitration format. They're making serious concessions. What's wrong with the proposal floating around this board of a combined soft cap and large cap? Owners still get a hard cap, with linkage, players get their luxury tax. What's so hard about this? The fact that the owners want one thing and it is non-neogeotiable? That's just being stubborn and stupid and if this is what the owners really want, their way or no way, then they were playing this all year to not play this season and they shouldn't entertain us by making the same proposal over and over again.

the 24% reduction was such a PR scam - 24% of the players under contract, no effect on unsigned players, and there's a lot of them, plus it offers no systematic change since its still free market on all new contracts, just what the players want

 

[RorschachWJK]

I live in downtown Toronto...how in the world could I not be near it. No hockey is killing me. Hockey is as much as religion to me, but I don't believe in union punks dictating to owners. I'll take the hit to stick it to the greedy delusional players. I hope they enjoy playing in some crapy Siberian outpost next year. Most of the other leagues have a 2 foreign player minimum. Where o Where are these jerks going to play. A year in the ECHL will make that last NHL offer look pretty sweet.

'some crappy Siberian outpost' you say. Nice example of an ignorant generalization. Dude, have you even been to places like Switzerland, Germany, Sweden and Finland? I have, and while Canada has little to be ashamed of, these countries certainly do not pale in the comparison.

 

[alecfromtherock]

There is more dialogue in this one thread then any of the negations by the PA and the NHL.

The NHL has increased their salary cap offer some 33%, what exactly have the PA done since?

Raising the 24% rollback 33% would make it 31.92% rollback.

Rollbacks seem to be a solution aimed only at players who are currently under contract, where is the longevity in this plan?

Newsflash: Salary cap forces salary rollbacks (Detroit under a 45 million cap has to rollback their player salaries 42%)

$45 million soft cap(1:1 or greater ratio)
$40 million hard cap
$30 million salary floor($15 million difference as JD said was necessary)

We agree that the top players should get paid the highest, but the 2nd and 3rd liners do not deserve the bucks they are currently(and by that I mean last season) getting.

After next season more then 80% of contracts will be up, only the IDIOT 10 year contracts will remain in the coming years.

Most top 50 players will still be making millions under a cap, the 2nd tier players will get paid for what they are capable of , and the bottom paid players (rookies - 4 years in the NHL) will hardly be effected.

Take away all signing and performance bonuses(record breaking performances could see the player getting some extra $) and the game will get better.

Instead of FREE TIBET we should be chanting FREE DEMOCRACY IN THE PA

Let the players vote if they think a cap will work in principal, if it passes Bob Goodenow and Trevor Linden can no longer say ‘we will never accept a salary cap’ they will actually have to NEGOTIATE.

I never liked when people talked about the average salary. This is one of the most misguide information to get the fans on the owner's side.

Yes it's true the average salary is 1,8M$ but the median salary is around 900K$

That's mean you remove the 14 players at 6M$ + & you get close to 1M$.

Just for reference, if you take the top 25 players out of the formula

$1,332,948,890(total) – $219,740,700(top 25 combined) = $1,113,208,190/ 675(players) and we get an average salary of $1,649,197.31

60% more then your estimate of $1,000,000

 

[Biggest Canuck Fan]

Easily this is the best proposal of them all. The NHL put forth a very meaningful proposal and guess what... IT IS THEIR LEAGUE!!!! THEY OWN IT!! THE PLAYERS ARE NOT GOING TO BE HARD DONE BY, AND THEY WILL HAVE JOBS SO THEY CAN MAKE DECENT MONEY TO RETIRE!!

Who the hell does the NHLPA think they are anyways? "Oh you have to make changes, but only the changes we tell you to make"!?!?!?! The Association are not going to win this battle. Tey should take this, which just allows for, God Fobid, a more balanced and competitive league, and re-open in 4 years if it doesn't work. The League ran with their last CBA and look where it got them.

And to support my opinion I offer this example...

Suppose you are one of the highest paid people in your industry, but you know the Industry isn't going well. In fact it hasn't gone well for 8 years, and many other employers have moved or sold out because of this. Your employer says "I have to scale back your wage." Now that does suck. But you knew you were being overpaid for the 8 years, and you saw others who were far less skilled than you recieve a higher wage. Now you do know the industry is sustainable, but not at it's current pay scale.

Now you tell me if you and your co-workers are going to go into negotiations to see if this can be avoided, when you know full well it cannot? Will you quit and go work elsewhere, where more than likley you will recieve a fraction of your pay? Will you tell the owners, who know far more than you ever have about the financial numbers coming in, that they should solve the issue your way, even though they already know the real solution?

Anyone who says the owners don't want a season are fooling themselves and do not know how to run a business.

3 cheers for the owners who are sticking to their guns so a rogue owner will never pay Bobby Holik 7 million a season again.

 

[Dr Love]

And to support my opinion I offer this example...

Suppose you are one of the highest paid people in your industry, but you know the Industry isn't going well. In fact it hasn't gone well for 8 years, and many other employers have moved or sold out because of this. Your employer says "I have to scale back your wage." Now that does suck. But you knew you were being overpaid for the 8 years, and you saw others who were far less skilled than you recieve a higher wage. Now you do know the industry is sustainable, but not at it's current pay scale.

Ah, but the thing is the players don't think they are overpaid (that much), and they think it is sustainable near it's current pay scale.

 

[Biggest Canuck Fan]

Ah, but the thing is the players don't think they are overpaid (that much), and they think it is sustainable near it's current pay scale.

And that is where they are wrong. And they know it. They just will not admit it. You can only get so many apples from a tree a season, and the players have gotten all they can out of the current system.

The Players do not want the system to change at all.

 

[KingFlame]

username: mcomrie
password: salostyle

 

[Dr Love]

And that is where they are wrong. And they know it. They just will not admit it. You can only get so many apples from a tree a season, and the players have gotten all they can out of the current system.

The Players do not want the system to change at all.

I've been around a lot of athletes in my time, not hockey players but the attitude is all the same. While some of them know they are wrong (and have said so in public), I have enormous doubt that a majority of them do.

 

[shnagle]

Easily this is the best proposal of them all. The NHL put forth a very meaningful proposal and guess what... IT IS THEIR LEAGUE!!!! THEY OWN IT!! THE PLAYERS ARE NOT GOING TO BE HARD DONE BY, AND THEY WILL HAVE JOBS SO THEY CAN MAKE DECENT MONEY TO RETIRE!!

Who the hell does the NHLPA think they are anyways? "Oh you have to make changes, but only the changes we tell you to make"!?!?!?! The Association are not going to win this battle. Tey should take this, which just allows for, God Fobid, a more balanced and competitive league, and re-open in 4 years if it doesn't work. The League ran with their last CBA and look where it got them.

And to support my opinion I offer this example...

Suppose you are one of the highest paid people in your industry, but you know the Industry isn't going well. In fact it hasn't gone well for 8 years, and many other employers have moved or sold out because of this. Your employer says "I have to scale back your wage." Now that does suck. But you knew you were being overpaid for the 8 years, and you saw others who were far less skilled than you recieve a higher wage. Now you do know the industry is sustainable, but not at it's current pay scale.

Now you tell me if you and your co-workers are going to go into negotiations to see if this can be avoided, when you know full well it cannot? Will you quit and go work elsewhere, where more than likley you will recieve a fraction of your pay? Will you tell the owners, who know far more than you ever have about the financial numbers coming in, that they should solve the issue your way, even though they already know the real solution?

Anyone who says the owners don't want a season are fooling themselves and do not know how to run a business.

3 cheers for the owners who are sticking to their guns so a rogue owner will never pay Bobby Holik 7 million a season again.

I only have one problem with your example. You state that the industry is in such dire financial shape that it has forced other companies to sell out or move. Would you not say that this is a survival of the fittest situation? In a true market place the weaker franchises would just fold up. However, the NHL and NHLPA are determined to keep all 30 franchises afloat and don't have enough revenue to do so.

Some franchises can afford to spend more money on players than others. If a player knows he can get more money somewhere else, does that make him greedy or is it the fault of the rival owner who overpays. Since some franchises have more revenue than others shouldn't they be willing to share those revenues for the good of the industry or is it only the players who should bear the responsibility of keeping weaker franchises afloat. My only point here is that there is a middle ground and it is not just the players who bear a responsibility to keeping the industry(NHL) afloat.

 

[skellart]

Money, money, money. Is that the problem? OK, I will start buying 1 extra $8.50 beer at each game I go to.

 

[CarlRacki]

'some crappy Siberian outpost' you say. Nice example of an ignorant generalization. Dude, have you even been to places like Switzerland, Germany, Sweden and Finland? I have, and while Canada has little to be ashamed of, these countries certainly do not pale in the comparison.

I have no doubt they are lovely places. What pales in comparison is salary. If the players want to trade an average salary of $1.75 million (with a $42 million cap) for an average salary of $150,000 in Europe, they are very dim bulbs indeed.

 

[Fish on The Sand]

I never liked when people talked about the average salary. This is one of the most misguide information to get the fans on the owner's side.

Yes it's true the average salary is 1,8M$ but the median salary is around 900K$

That's mean you remove the 14 players at 6M$ + & you get close to 1M$.

The mean is always more effective, because median doesn't reflect what players are actually earning. You guys just don't like it because it shows how greedy the players are.

 

[Fish on The Sand]

Fehr is involved? Why am I not surprised?

Thinking on it, the evil pillsbury doughboy of sports would want his pudgy fingers in the pot because if hockey gets their cap that would leave baseball as the only truly screwed up sport out where a team *cough* Yankees *cough* or teams *cough* BostonChicagoSt. Louis *cough* could and will spend 5, 10, 100 times what other teams spend and still pretend that it is a sport. The pressure would be enormous for change.

Red Sox have the second highest payroll in baseball. The Yankees have doubled the Red Sox payroll. Meaning, the Yankees spend more than any 2 teams combined in baseball.

 

[RorschachWJK]

I have no doubt they are lovely places. What pales in comparison is salary. If the players want to trade an average salary of $1.75 million (with a $42 million cap) for an average salary of $150,000 in Europe, they are very dim bulbs indeed.

Agreed about the player salaries. Though I hear that they have been on the rise at least in Russia during the last few years.

 

[Biggest Canuck Fan]

I only have one problem with your example. You state that the industry is in such dire financial shape that it has forced other companies to sell out or move. Would you not say that this is a survival of the fittest situation? In a true market place the weaker franchises would just fold up. However, the NHL and NHLPA are determined to keep all 30 franchises afloat and don't have enough revenue to do so.

Some franchises can afford to spend more money on players than others. If a player knows he can get more money somewhere else, does that make him greedy or is it the fault of the rival owner who overpays. Since some franchises have more revenue than others shouldn't they be willing to share those revenues for the good of the industry or is it only the players who should bear the responsibility of keeping weaker franchises afloat. My only point here is that there is a middle ground and it is not just the players who bear a responsibility to keeping the industry(NHL) afloat.

I say let the player go elsewhere if he thinks he can get more money in a different hockey league. But in the NHL, as like any francise, there are rules set by the francisee to the francise. The NHL knows they cannot continue under the current system, they believe they now have a system in place that will work.

The Players should either show up to play or play elsewhere because the NHL sets the rules, not the players. Otherwise players should be disciplining other players for infractions. They are telling the NHL, who by the way have been running their teams for countless years making them experts I would think, that they know how to run the league better than they can... but the players just collect paychecks, play games and visit team functions...

yeah that qualifies the players to resolve this issue.

Play elswhere, but let the NHL run itself and we'll see who is standing 20 years from now.

 

[Dr Love]

Red Sox have the second highest payroll in baseball. The Yankees have doubled the Red Sox payroll. Meaning, the Yankees spend more than any 2 teams combined in baseball.

That's not true at all. The Yankees payroll is roughly $220M. The Red Sox + Angels payroll is higher than the Yankees payroll, and I can't say for sure but the Red Sox should easily be above $110M.

 

[RorschachWJK]

The mean is always more effective, because median doesn't reflect what players are actually earning. You guys just don't like it because it shows how greedy the players are.

The mean is more affected by extreme values (in this case, salaries of Yashin, Jagr, Sakic et al.), whereas the median better reflects the fact that most players receive rather small paychecks (relatively speaking of course). This is because the median works better with data that has a skewed distribution (as opposed to a Normal distribution). See any stats book, or for example: http://www.stats.gla.ac.uk/steps/glossary/presenting_data.html#med

 

[shnagle]

I say let the player go elsewhere if he thinks he can get more money in a different hockey league. But in the NHL, as like any francise, there are rules set by the francisee to the francise. The NHL knows they cannot continue under the current system, they believe they now have a system in place that will work.

The Players should either show up to play or play elsewhere because the NHL sets the rules, not the players. Otherwise players should be disciplining other players for infractions. They are telling the NHL, who by the way have been running their teams for countless years making them experts I would think, that they know how to run the league better than they can... but the players just collect paychecks, play games and visit team functions...

yeah that qualifies the players to resolve this issue.

Play elswhere, but let the NHL run itself and we'll see who is standing 20 years from now.

What does any of that have to do with my response to your post? You gave me an example of why you think the players have the brunt of the responsibility for taking what the owners offered them. I'm not saying your example is wrong, I simply asked a question as to whether you think the owners have a responsibility to do what's financially best for the game or is it just the players. Do the players need to take a cap so the Rangers, Flyers, Red Wings, Leafs and other big market teams can take home a huge profit or if the players take a pay cut in conjunction with the big market teams giving back some of those profits to keep small revenue teams around. I hope you can see the difference?