Trevor Timmins - The day they made me draft Louis Leblanc....

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NotProkofievian

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Nov 29, 2011
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I'm probably the only one who's gonna say this, but i disagree with this whole "you draft for the BPA regardless of size" narrative.

While i agree that speed and skill is the most important attribute to look for, you still need size.

In fact, i think we will slowly but surely see small skilled players slowly lose their advantage as very soon all teams will weed out the slow footed pylons on defense (where have you gone, Douglas Murray) and have dmen with size and who can skate in order to neutralize the smaller forwards.

In addition, I also believe this trend will also lead to teams to figure out "well, we better not rely on those small skilled forwards anymore so let's start to counteract those huge speedy d-men by drafting huge forwards who could skate and handle the puck".

Ultimately, it will be a league where big boys with skills and speed at both the forward and defense position that will be the norm.

I get it that it that guys like Gaudreau, Marner, Debrincat, Gallagher, Tyler Johnson still have their place and canl excel in this league, but these will be the exception, not the rule ( and in most cases, they are surrounded by bigger guys)

All this to say please no more guys like Dumont, Colberg, Bozon, Audette, Andreghetto, Maxwell, Bitten, etc... (i'm not even sold on Mete to be honest)

And i'm not advocating for big guys who can't skate either (hello McCaron)

The league is trending to skilled, big and fast (see the Jets ) and we need to draft accordingly, not experiment with a trend that we were too late on and that is about to die. (and yes i know Vegas is small, but lets see how long they'll last against a team that is not just big but that can also skate with them)

It's not like teams are selecting players because they're smaller, instead of some hypothetical big fast skating talented players. If a player is big, fast, and talented, they're selected very early in the draft. There's still an extreme bias towards size. It's just that big players tend to not be fast, or talented. There could be all kinds of reasons for this. For instance, it's not realistic to expect someone who's 6'3 to have Gaudreau's agility. Also, if you're 6'3 and a forward, you likely don't need to be that skilled or fast to be effective at the junior levels. There isn't as much of a selection pressure on bigger players to develop themselves in the same way. The NHL itself is just selecting for the smaller, faster players as a result of a rule change, and change in rule enforcement. Now, of course the rules could change back, and the Tinordis of the world can all of a sudden have jobs again, but in the meantime I think we should just select for talent.

The keen eyed observer will note that we haven't done that for some time. I don't think there's anyone on the planet prepared to argue that Michael McCarron, Connor Crisp, Nikolas Koberstein, Jacob de la Rose, and Michael Pezzetta were selected for their talent.
 
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Price is Wright

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Tim Bozon was a good pick. I have no problem with that one. We drafted a 6'1" 190lb point per game player in the third round with a great shot who sadly fought a near fatal bout of meningitis which he lost 40lbs from and it completely derailed his hockey career. He never recovered on ice. That doesn't mean the pick was bad.

Better to focus on the countless players in the second round of 2013 with comparable or better points than Jacob de La Rose despite half the amount of games. Even when he was drafted the big question mark on him was his hands and everyone excused it because his defensive game was polished so early. Well.
 

Vachon23

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Tim Bozon was a good pick. I have no problem with that one. We drafted a 6'1" 190lb point per game player in the third round with a great shot who sadly fought a near fatal bout of meningitis which he lost 40lbs from and it completely derailed his hockey career. He never recovered on ice. That doesn't mean the pick was bad.

Better to focus on the countless players in the second round of 2013 with comparable or better points than Jacob de La Rose despite half the amount of games. Even when he was drafted the big question mark on him was his hands and everyone excused it because his defensive game was polished so early. Well.

4 time 30 goals scorer and he finish 9th in points at 18 years old in the WHL before he got hit by the meningitis !
 

Habs Icing

Formerly Onice
Jan 17, 2004
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Better to focus on the countless players in the second round of 2013 with comparable or better points than Jacob de La Rose despite half the amount of games. Even when he was drafted the big question mark on him was his hands and everyone excused it because his defensive game was polished so early. Well.
Yeah let's focus on this. Countless players, really? How many of those countless players have a better or comparable NHL record? I count five - one of which is a Habs pick:

DLR - 19 points

Compher 28 points
Elie 21 points
Petan 21 Points
Lehkonen 49
Bertuzzi 24

Exaggeration only makes you look silly when facts are brought up.
 
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Laurentide

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I`d be interested in what qualities the Habs value when they are coming up with their draft list.

I`d like to hear the media ask the question, what qualties are you looking for in a player?

In `Lions in Winter', there is a chapter called `Father Frank`s Masterplan'. (Frank Selke, who`s plan was arguably the basis for much of the success the team enjoyed even after he was forced into retirement in 1963).

Selke looked for 3 essentials in players:

-strong hockey background
-deep commitment to winning or aversion to losing (music to Stephane Lebeau`s ears)
-the sense of self confidence, direction and motivation; he wanted players with a team perspective rather then an individual one.

Listening to Stephane Lebeau, I don`t know what they look at now but based on recent results makes you wonder just what do the Habs value when they scout players.

Selke's criteria could be summarized thusly:

-strong hockey background = "RISPECK"
-deep commitment to winning or aversion to losing = "KA-RACK-TER"
-self-confidence, direction, motivation = "ATTITUDE"
 
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Chili

En boca cerrada no entran moscas
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Selke's criteria could be summarized thusly:

-strong hockey background = "RISPECK"
-deep commitment to winning or aversion to losing = "KA-RACK-TER"
-self-confidence, direction, motivation = "ATTITUDE"
My own take, the strong hockey background is based on talent, speed, skill, hockey IQ, etc.

I think you`re bang on with the other two.

We`re always hearing `best player available' but the definition of that from team to team has to vary.

What is a Habs scout looking for in a player?

Both amateur and pro, I`d be interested to know (beyond attitude, character) and what is prioritized.

The part I really like from the Selke bio is self confident, self motivated and self driven. In other words, someone who will work hard to overcome all the obstacles that lay in front of them.
 

Price is Wright

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Yeah let's focus on this. Countless players, really? How many of those countless players have a better or comparable NHL record? I count five - one of which is a Habs pick:

DLR - 19 points

Compher 28 points
Elie 21 points
Petan 21 Points
Lehkonen 49
Bertuzzi 24

Exaggeration only makes you look silly when facts are brought up.

You forgot

Santini (Defenceman) - 17 in 75
Olofsson (Defenceman) - 11 in 56
Bowey (Defenceman) - 12 in 51

Remember DLR has played 119 games. 10 players in the 3rd round alone are outpacing him as well. Three in the 4th round. What's silly is anyone thinking 19 points in 119 games is arguable.
 

yianik

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Jun 30, 2009
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We blow hot and cold on our prospects but this year seemed to be a generally positive year overall.

Several guys left for dead seemed to come back and show they still have potential, like Scherbak, Vedjemo, even I will say DLR ( barely a pulse but a pulse ). There were guys who surprised like Poehling ( to me anyway ) , Primeau and Mete. And a bunch who just made good progress including Juulsen and several others.

Sure quite a few not so goods but I think fewer not so goods than the year before.

Now for me quantity does not count much at all, quality does. We need some guys to show they are top 6 forwards and top 4 D. Hopefully they keep bringing it on.
 

scrubadam

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Apr 10, 2016
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Tim Bozon was a good pick. I have no problem with that one. We drafted a 6'1" 190lb point per game player in the third round with a great shot who sadly fought a near fatal bout of meningitis which he lost 40lbs from and it completely derailed his hockey career. He never recovered on ice. That doesn't mean the pick was bad.

Better to focus on the countless players in the second round of 2013 with comparable or better points than Jacob de La Rose despite half the amount of games. Even when he was drafted the big question mark on him was his hands and everyone excused it because his defensive game was polished so early. Well.

Good posts. I remember reading on here that JDLR when he was drafted had some untapped offensive potential and was ruined by his yo-yoing etc...

My memory matches with what you wrote, he had NHL size and was seen as a good defensively.

He might turn into a decent 3rd/4th liner but meh on picking someone like that in the 2nd round.
 

ECWHSWI

TOUGHEN UP.
Oct 27, 2006
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Good posts. I remember reading on here that JDLR when he was drafted had some untapped offensive potential and was ruined by his yo-yoing etc...

My memory matches with what you wrote, he had NHL size and was seen as a good defensively.

He might turn into a decent 3rd/4th liner but meh on picking someone like that in the 2nd round.
that'S why it was so important to put him up higher in the lineup and have him center the 2nd line right ? ?
 

montreal

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No one would know if DLR had some untapped offensive potential because every time he started to do something they called him up to the NHL. He started the year slow every season and then heated up and when he did he got called up and then sent back and then heated up and then would get called up again. I'm sure that didn't impact his development and confidence at all. Great move by management.

Must just be coincidence that DLR at 19 had 4 goals in 33 games in the NHL and after being yo-yoed so many times it took him 86 games to score the same amount of goals.
 
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Habs100

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No one would know if DLR had some untapped offensive potential because every time he started to do something they called him up to the NHL. He started the year slow every season and then heated up and when he did he got called up and then sent back and then heated up and then would get called up again. I'm sure that didn't impact his development and confidence at all. Great move by management.

Must just be coincidence that DLR at 19 had 4 goals in 33 games in the NHL and after being yo-yoed so many times it took him 86 games to score the same amount of goals.

I know by watching him: he doesn't have untapped offensive potential. He has so many other tools though: speed, mobility, stick handling, good shot, makes good decisions with the puck, size, to name a few. I would like to see if he can learn the finner points of being a dman. He literally reminds me of Hedman (minus the offense) when he skates the puck up the ice.

I don't see him ever having an impact on the game as a forward. Small chance he could be a power forward type of winger. But very small.

Leaf fans are all talking about how much better over the hill Plekanec is than Brian Boyle. Meanwhile we're praying De la Rose or McCarron realise their ceiling of being something close to Brian Boyle. It makes no sense. A Brian Boyle type center is really not a player that will have a big impact on a game.
 
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MSLs absurd thighs

Formerly Tough Au Lit
Feb 4, 2013
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The consensus is never wrong. Didn't you know?

Had we gone with the highest ranked guy for every pick we made since Timmins first came in, our picks would have performed more. There was an article written on that not that long ago. So yeah. I trust the NHL scouting service's lists more than I do trust our scout.
 

G0bias

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Had we gone with the highest ranked guy for every pick we made since Timmins first came in, our picks would have performed more. There was an article written on that not that long ago. So yeah. I trust the NHL scouting service's lists more than I do trust our scout.
Journalist could've saved himself the trouble and just summed it up to; we missed big time with Tinordi over Kuznetsov. The rest were all marginal differences if even favourable.
 
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MSLs absurd thighs

Formerly Tough Au Lit
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Journalist could've saved himself the trouble and just summed it up to; we missed big time with Tinordi over Kuznetsov. The rest were all marginal differences he even favourable.

So De La Rose, Fucale, Lehkonen, Thrower and Collberg in the 2nd round leaves you confident in Timmins' abilities to pick the right guy in the 2nd round to the point you would trade down to give this tool an additional 2nd round pick to ruin? No thanks for me.
 

Janne Niinimaa

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These guys have competent scouts calling the shots. The guy we have in place has a very unimpressive track record since taking over. If you're still confident with him calling the shot, good for you. You're probably living in a fairy world with rainbows and candy canes all around.

Also, HUGE difference reaching for a guy ranked 7-8th at 4 (Johansen), a guy ranked 10-12th at 7 (Scheifele) and a guy ranked 4th-5th at 2 (Barkov) and reaching for a guy ranked around 10th at #3!
What has Timmins done recently that has been so bad in the first few rounds?

2012: Galchenyuk was a good pick. Forsberg would have been better but many teams let him slide. Collberg was definitely consensus at that point. He was 1st on some lists.

2013: I hated the McCarron pick and he's awful so i'll give you that one. JDLR and Lekhonen are among the best players taken in the 2nd round. Fucale was highly ranked and with the consensus.

None of our recent picks look bad either. Scherbak, Juulsen, Serchachev and Poehling all have potential.
 

Janne Niinimaa

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So De La Rose, Fucale, Lehkonen, Thrower and Collberg in the 2nd round leaves you confident in Timmins' abilities to pick the right guy in the 2nd round to the point you would trade down to give this tool an additional 2nd round pick to ruin? No thanks for me.
Do you see the 2013 2nd round? Who did you want other than JDLR, Fucale and Lekhonen?
 

MSLs absurd thighs

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What has Timmins done recently that has been so bad in the first few rounds?

2012: Galchenyuk was a good pick. Forsberg would have been better but many teams let him slide. Collberg was definitely consensus at that point. He was 1st on some lists.

2013: I hated the McCarron pick and he's awful so i'll give you that one. JDLR and Lekhonen are among the best players taken in the 2nd round. Fucale was highly ranked and with the consensus.

None of our recent picks look bad either. Scherbak, Juulsen, Serchachev and Poehling all have potential.

What has Timmins done recently that has been so good in the first few rounds?

Come on. You're talking about a guy who still hasn't drafted a bonafide top-6 C in almost 20 years. The oldest players he picked in a draft for Montreal are still under 35, and only 3 of the forwards he picked are 50+ points forwards at this point in this league. Take out the 2007 draft and there's nothing to write home about on D neither. Since 2008, if you exclude Galchenyuk and Gallagher, there are no players who are top-6 players, top-4 Ds or starting goaltenders in his draft picks. He's been horrible.
 
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Janne Niinimaa

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What has Timmins done recently that has been so good in the first few rounds?

Come on. You're talking about a guy who still hasn't drafted a bonafide top-6 C in almost 20 years. The oldest players he picked in a draft for Montreal are still under 35, and only 3 of the forwards he picked are 50+ points forwards at this point in this league. Take out the 2007 draft and there's nothing to write home about on D neither. Since 2008, if you exclude Galchenyuk and Gallagher, there are no players who are top-6 players, top-4 Ds or starting goaltenders in his draft picks. He's been horrible.
He definitely had a very bad stretch between 2008-2011. But recently he hasn't been bad at all. You can't hold his 2012 and 2013 2nd round picks over him. He took the best guys available and they didn't develop. Scherbak, Juulsen, Sergachev and Poehling are very good picks in their spots.
 

G0bias

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So De La Rose, Fucale, Lehkonen, Thrower and Collberg in the 2nd round leaves you confident in Timmins' abilities to pick the right guy in the 2nd round to the point you would trade down to give this tool an additional 2nd round pick to ruin? No thanks for me.
I'm not sure you're aware who came out of that round.

Lehkonen completely works against your argument if anything. As he's not only the best player out of that round but the only one with top 6 potential. 7 to 10% of players taken at that range end up top 6 player/top 4 players and Timmins managed to get the only one.
 

WinterLion

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Had we gone with the highest ranked guy for every pick we made since Timmins first came in, our picks would have performed more. There was an article written on that not that long ago. So yeah. I trust the NHL scouting service's lists more than I do trust our scout.


We used to do that! When we drafted Terry Ryan and Eric Chouinard! It worked great!
 

habsfan92

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Hey, has TT been so good we should never question his picks? Just point out that other teams passed on the same guys, blah blah. Compare picks to better drafting teams & see what it was that they saw that you didn't. When he has done this job for so long the expectation would be that he has refined his criteria & processes to select & rank players more accurately than he used to at the beginning of his tenure. Do I think that is happening? Not convinced. DLR-4th liner, Lek-3rd liner. Always thought TT had a great eye for 3rd & 4th liners. There, see, pat him on the back-great job. Sometime dumb luck plays a factor. I just think sometime change is good, and that maybe someone else would see some different intangibles that would make for a better selection. Why not move TT to player development, so that he can correct what is perceived as poorly developed prospects. Basically saying drafting is a guessing game doesn't absolve him from responsibility for failed picks.
Final two words: Connor Crisp
 

Janne Niinimaa

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Hey, has TT been so good we should never question his picks? Just point out that other teams passed on the same guys, blah blah. Compare picks to better drafting teams & see what it was that they saw that you didn't. When he has done this job for so long the expectation would be that he has refined his criteria & processes to select & rank players more accurately than he used to at the beginning of his tenure. Do I think that is happening? Not convinced. DLR-4th liner, Lek-3rd liner. Always thought TT had a great eye for 3rd & 4th liners. There, see, pat him on the back-great job. Sometime dumb luck plays a factor. I just think sometime change is good, and that maybe someone else would see some different intangibles that would make for a better selection. Why not move TT to player development, so that he can correct what is perceived as poorly developed prospects. Basically saying drafting is a guessing game doesn't absolve him from responsibility for failed picks.
Final two words: Connor Crisp
The De La Rose and Lekhonen picks in the 2nd round keep coming up. Go look at that 2nd round. TT got arguably the 2 best available players.
 
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