Trevor Timmins Discussion (Part V)

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26Mats

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The bad decision would have to be insisting on a defenseman over BPA. I doubt Bergevin interfered by saying I absolutely want a defenseman. And even going by your assumption. Getting a bottom pairing defenseman in the 1st round is not smart. If what you say is true you trade down collect assets (2x 2nd) and get more value and select your defenseman.

It's not a matter of opinion - they're on record as saying it.

Time will tell if Juulsen's a bottom pair D or not. He's still very young. Be patient. McGuire thinks he'll be a #2 or #3...

But we're on the same page in that if Juulsen's only a bottom pair D it's a bad draft and they should have traded the pick. For me if he's top 4, the draft is automatically a good one. Any draft you land 1 and only 1 top 4 D or top 6 forward is a good draft, unless you're picking top 10. Plus, there's the fact that we were picking #26 and didn't have a 2nd or a 4th.
 

Andy

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2008-2015 did not do Timmins justice at all. It's almost a decade of failure, this coming from a poster who has defended Timmins quite a bit over the years.

2016-2019 is looking strong. That being said, I still remain a little skeptical with the more recent drafts. I still recall the celebration this board had with the 2012 draft and that turned out awful.
 

JeffreyLFC

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You need someone that wants to trade up for that.
I believe a team traded up just after us from the top of my head I think it was NYI to select Beauvillier. So yes there would have been demand if we wanted to trade down.
 

dackelljuneaubulis02

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Oct 13, 2012
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2008-2015 did not do Timmins justice at all. It's almost a decade of failure, this coming from a poster who has defended Timmins quite a bit over the years.

2016-2019 is looking strong. That being said, I still remain a little skeptical with the more recent drafts. I still recall the celebration this board had with the 2012 draft and that turned out awful.

yeah people should still be cautious calling these recent drafts wins. But in comparison to 2012 the early returns on '17 and '18 are FAR better
 

montreal

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I'm more comfortable with the past few drafts because not only did the scouting staff appear to make some changes, but also just listen to Bouchard talk hockey vs the guy we had here for the previous 6 years. So far this year the AHL coaching staff made mostly sound decisions with the roster and the team played such a structured defensive game vs previous years that it at least gives me hope we are in a much better place development wise.

Add the large amount of picks in the top 50ish vs those lean years and that should bode well for us as well.

That said we'll see how things continue to go, what progress each prospect makes over the year.
 

scrubadam

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Serge looks like he will be a good NHLer, but Mete and Juulsen are still up in the air.

Keep in mind Beau also looked good and improved each year and now I don't know if he is even in the NHL.

Neither are a lock to be on the team in 2/3 years from now and to be anything more than journeyman.

Its called the Timmins special, drafting guys who play 300 or so games, have 1 or 2 good seasons and then disapear while leaving nearly no impact on the habs team.
 
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Teufelsdreck

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Serge looks like he will be a good NHLer, but Mete and Juulsen are still up in the air.

Keep in mind Beau also looked good and improved each year and now I don't know if he is even in the NHL.

Neither are a lock to be on the team in 2/3 years from now and to be anything more than journeyman.

Its called the Timmins special, drafting guys who play 300 or so games, have 1 or 2 good seasons and then disapear while leaving nearly no impact on the habs team.

Juulsen will stick, Mete won't,
 

ForeverHabs97

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I'm much more comfortable with the scouting crew today purely based on talent, hype and success at the junior level. Only 2-3 players have stuck around so far and that's Kotkaniemi, Mete and Juulsen. We'll see which ones actually end up becoming careers/impact players like Pac, Carey Price and PK/McDonagh, Gallagher etc. but I'm a little more optimistic on our chances today than I was in 2015/2016. Having so many picks and different quality prospects is much more exciting than having less and it also increases the chances in TT's selections of making NHL players. So he may redeem himself for the huge dry period of like 2010-2015 and the whole Galchenyuk fiasco (we could of had Reilly, rumours MB wanted him but hindsight is always 20/20).

What really makes me somewhat optimistic in this turnaround/team and TT was the emergence of KK. When everything seemed doomed for a basement finish based on our roster and I actually thought Ottawa would destroy us in the season, KK came out of nowhere and did something we hadn't experienced in a long freaking time, that was a breath of fresh air and actually gave me hope to turn this thing around. After the KK breakout, we saw the Chucky and Pacioretty deals turn out to be great trades that really allowed us the chance to make the playoffs. That one pick by TT in 2018 3rd overall, where KK wasn't even supposed to be in the Top 5, he made his place as a top 5 pick by getting better during the season of 2017-2018, we made that pick and that really boosted our team for one year. We just gotta build on that to become a serious team.

Think about the KK pick, it was almost the same thing as Chucky in 2018. Chucky had missed the whole junior season due to knee injury, was somewhat a wild card and we picked him. For TT to go out and make another wild card pick at 3rd overall 5 years later in 2018, where KK wasn't a consensus top 5 throughout the whole season, but moved up by the end of the season, it was a bold move that paid off.

So for me my renewed optimism in this team started with the KK selection from TT. Everything else has progressively been trending upwards in hopes and optimism, that started with TT. He has my vote of approval, for now... see you all in 2024 :popcorn:
 

Hins77

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I'm much more comfortable with the scouting crew today purely based on talent, hype and success at the junior level. Only 2-3 players have stuck around so far and that's Kotkaniemi, Mete and Juulsen. We'll see which ones actually end up becoming careers/impact players like Pac, Carey Price and PK/McDonagh, Gallagher etc. but I'm a little more optimistic on our chances today than I was in 2015/2016. Having so many picks and different quality prospects is much more exciting than having less and it also increases the chances in TT's selections of making NHL players. So he may redeem himself for the huge dry period of like 2010-2015 and the whole Galchenyuk fiasco (we could of had Reilly, rumours MB wanted him but hindsight is always 20/20).

What really makes me somewhat optimistic in this turnaround/team and TT was the emergence of KK. When everything seemed doomed for a basement finish based on our roster and I actually thought Ottawa would destroy us in the season, KK came out of nowhere and did something we hadn't experienced in a long freaking time, that was a breath of fresh air and actually gave me hope to turn this thing around. After the KK breakout, we saw the Chucky and Pacioretty deals turn out to be great trades that really allowed us the chance to make the playoffs. That one pick by TT in 2018 3rd overall, where KK wasn't even supposed to be in the Top 5, he made his place as a top 5 pick by getting better during the season of 2017-2018, we made that pick and that really boosted our team for one year. We just gotta build on that to become a serious team.

Think about the KK pick, it was almost the same thing as Chucky in 2018. Chucky had missed the whole junior season due to knee injury, was somewhat a wild card and we picked him. For TT to go out and make another wild card pick at 3rd overall 5 years later in 2018, where KK wasn't a consensus top 5 throughout the whole season, but moved up by the end of the season, it was a bold move that paid off.

So for me my renewed optimism in this team started with the KK selection from TT. Everything else has progressively been trending upwards in hopes and optimism, that started with TT. He has my vote of approval, for now... see you all in 2024 :popcorn:
Morgan reilly is playing with auston matthews, marner, tavares on PP. i don’t want to tell you is not a bad player. But its help a lot. Before these player were in TO, reilly was okay
 
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1909

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in hindsight perhaps but at the time no way, he was over a ppg on a **** team that won 16 games all year. He had 78 pts in his draft year to lead his team in points, the next highest on the team had ****ing 43 pts.

On this very board, we are reminded every single day that junior stats are meaningless.... And it all depends if someone like or hate a player.
 

26Mats

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Jun 23, 2018
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It's too early to confirm, but I hope we're back to the old Timmins - who drafted for talent and not size. The last 4 drafts - and to some extent the last 5 - are looking sensational, especially the last 3:

2019: Caufield, Struble, Fairbrother, Pitlick, etc...
2018: Kotkaniemi, Romanov, Ylonen, Harris, etc...
2017: Poehling, Brook, Primeau, Fleury, Ikonen

That's a ton of good prospects in only 3 years.
 

scrubadam

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TT's first round record is not very good. And you gotta hit it out of the park in the 1st round.

Kots. 50 point player with a good season. Passing on a guy like Carter for him is an epic fail.

Chipchura. Go nowhere pick. Why take a guy whose ceiling is a 3rd liner.

Price. Good pick, but with the goalies in that draft (Rask, Bishop, Quick) there was no need to go off the board and ignore a player like Kopi. I give him credit for taking a great talent, but he misjudged this pick.

Fischer, total bust, Giroux right there.

Max and McD, Timmins star draft. He got it right this time

Tinordi, traded up for this stiff, centers on the board that TT passed on yet again

Leblanc, take Kreider and maybe he never takes out Prices knees in that series.

Beaulieu. Rocks for brains, probably out of the NHL very soon.

AG. 3rd OVA pick, a softball yet leaves a lot of other talents on the board. Draft sucked so he got a decent player, but he was a square peg (winger) trying to be shoved into a round hole (elite C).

Mac. Big guy thats going nowhere.

Scherbak. At least he swung, but he missed as per usual. How about you trade up for Pasta like you did for Tinordi???

Serge. Looks good but is he product of TB. Second season not as good as the first. Remember Drouin looked like the next superstar in TB as well. Still good pick can't hold the trade against him.

Juulsen, Phoeling, KK, and CC. Jury is still out. Hopefully things can turn around.

Looking back the only picks I wouldn't change are the Max and McD picks. Even Price though he is great was a wasted oppurtunity especially with Quick, Bishop, Rask in that draft. No need to wasted the 5th pick when you had 2 goalies go in the 3rd round.
 
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Paddyjack

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TT's first round record is not very good. And you gotta hit it out of the park in the 1st round.

Kots. 50 point player with a good season. Passing on a guy like Carter for him is an epic fail.

Chipchura. Go nowhere pick. Why take a guy whose ceiling is a 3rd liner.

Price. Good pick, but with the goalies in that draft (Rask, Bishop, Quick) there was no need to go off the board and ignore a player like Kopi. I give him credit for taking a great talent, but he misjudged this pick.

Fischer, total bust, Giroux right there.

Max and McD, Timmins star draft. He got it right this time

Tinordi, traded up for this stiff, centers on the board that TT passed on yet again

Leblanc, take Kreider and maybe he never takes out Prices knees in that series.

Beaulieu. Rocks for brains, probably out of the NHL very soon.

AG. 3rd OVA pick, a softball yet leaves a lot of other talents on the board. Draft sucked so he got a decent player, but he was a square peg (winger) trying to be shoved into a round hole (elite C).

Mac. Big guy thats going nowhere.

Scherbak. At least he swung, but he missed as per usual. How about you trade up for Pasta like you did for Tinordi???

Serge. Looks good but is he product of TB. Second season not as good as the first. Remember Drouin looked like the next superstar in TB as well. Still good pick can't hold the trade against him.

Juulsen, Phoeling, KK, and CC. Jury is still out. Hopefully things can turn around.

Looking back the only picks I wouldn't change are the Max and McD picks. Even Price though he is great was a wasted oppurtunity especially with Quick, Bishop, Rask in that draft. No need to wasted the 5th pick when you had 2 goalies go in the 3rd round.

I give him a pass for Chuckie. Look at the draft, the need that year was a Centre. The next 7 plaers picked up after Chuckie were defensemen. And when you look even further, there were nothing there that would have been a great pick.
 
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Scintillating10

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We should have traded down then picked Price
TT's first round record is not very good. And you gotta hit it out of the park in the 1st round.

Kots. 50 point player with a good season. Passing on a guy like Carter for him is an epic fail.

Chipchura. Go nowhere pick. Why take a guy whose ceiling is a 3rd liner.

Price. Good pick, but with the goalies in that draft (Rask, Bishop, Quick) there was no need to go off the board and ignore a player like Kopi. I give him credit for taking a great talent, but he misjudged this pick.

Fischer, total bust, Giroux right there.

Max and McD, Timmins star draft. He got it right this time

Tinordi, traded up for this stiff, centers on the board that TT passed on yet again

Leblanc, take Kreider and maybe he never takes out Prices knees in that series.

Beaulieu. Rocks for brains, probably out of the NHL very soon.

AG. 3rd OVA pick, a softball yet leaves a lot of other talents on the board. Draft sucked so he got a decent player, but he was a square peg (winger) trying to be shoved into a round hole (elite C).

Mac. Big guy thats going nowhere.

Scherbak. At least he swung, but he missed as per usual. How about you trade up for Pasta like you did for Tinordi???

Serge. Looks good but is he product of TB. Second season not as good as the first. Remember Drouin looked like the next superstar in TB as well. Still good pick can't hold the trade against him.

Juulsen, Phoeling, KK, and CC. Jury is still out. Hopefully things can turn around.

Looking back the only picks I wouldn't change are the Max and McD picks. Even Price though he is great was a wasted oppurtunity especially with Quick, Bishop, Rask in that draft. No need to wasted the 5th pick when you had 2 goalies go in the 3rd round.
 

montreal

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We should have traded down then picked Price

as was stated they couldn't as he likely would have been picked. I remember that draft day well, the Sens were rumored to be taking Price at 9th so it was very likely he wouldn't have lasted long and then it wouldn't be worth a 2nd or whatever they got and instead of Price they get Staal who is the guy I thought they were going to pick.

He wouldn't have been available:

The inside story of how Carey Price became a Canadien - Sportsnet.ca

He was ranked very highly and some teams would have considered him even at 3/4.

never saw that article, thanks. interesting quote from Timmins,

It’s always a group decision, and at the end someone has to step up and put their stamp on it.


Gainey's quote on scouting, which I knew was the case but this just backs it up,

My role as GM didn’t put me deeply in the recruitment/assessment area. I had given Trevor and his right-hand guys that responsibility and felt that I needed to allow them to make their pick. Price was the recommendation of the scouting staff, and that’s what we went with.


Timmins, lol

As soon as we picked Carey Price, the Columbus guys at the table right beside us were throwing pens in the air and all happy, excited we didn’t take Brule.
 
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scrubadam

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He wouldn't have been available:

The inside story of how Carey Price became a Canadien - Sportsnet.ca

He was ranked very highly and some teams considered him even at pick number 3/4.

Trade down for Kopi, at the time we had goalies in the system and still needed a C.

Then you have Rask/Quick/Bishop and heck even Pavlec there. Quick and Bishop were taken in the 3rd rounds, and if the habs don't take Price I wonder if Rask slips into the 2nd round?

Price is a great talent, but if I am going to praise someone as a great scout seeing tons of great goalies available and a big strapping C, I use my draft better and get that C and pick up a goalie with later picks.
 

scrubadam

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as was stated they couldn't as he likely would have been picked. I remember that draft day well, the Sens were rumored to be taking Price at 9th so it was very likely he wouldn't have lasted long and then it wouldn't be worth a 2nd or whatever they got and instead of Price they get Staal who is the guy I thought they were going to pick.



never saw that article, thanks. interesting quote from Timmins,




Gainey's quote on scouting, which I knew was the case but this just backs it up,




Timmins, lol

Well my thing with the Price pick is, great player, but wrong pick. TT got the talent right, but would things be that different if we drafted Bishop or Quick? And who knows where Rask goes if the habs don't take Price.

Which is another point both Rask and Bishop were traded. So not only could we have drafted them, we also had a chance to get them on the trade market.

Habs trade down, pick Kopi at 8/9/10, get a 2nd rounder or whatever, take Quick/Bishop (or maybe Rask) and that sounds pretty damn good.

Would of taken a lot of attention, forsight, and thought when looking at the draft. It was a good draft for goalies, but IMO there wasn't a need to take one with the 5th pick.
 

CauZuki

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Feb 19, 2008
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Trade down for Kopi, at the time we had goalies in the system and still needed a C.

Then you have Rask/Quick/Bishop and heck even Pavlec there. Quick and Bishop were taken in the 3rd rounds, and if the habs don't take Price I wonder if Rask slips into the 2nd round?

Price is a great talent, but if I am going to praise someone as a great scout seeing tons of great goalies available and a big strapping C, I use my draft better and get that C and pick up a goalie with later picks.

I think you are underestimating Price's pedigree and career to this point. He was really seen as a generational talent , Habs would have been dumb to let that go. Scouting was a mess that year because of the late draft lottery so teams didn't have much time to prepare. Quick is a great goalie but Habs never had anything close to Kopitar/Carter and Doughty in their prime...

I don't think it's fair to evaluate Timmins in hindsight when Quick wasn't close to a sure thing as Price and Kopitar was skipped over by 9 teams after Crosby.
 
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scrubadam

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I think you are underestimating Price's pedigree and career to this point. He was really seen as a generational talent , Habs would have been dumb to let that go. Scouting was a mess that year because of the late draft lottery so teams didn't have much time to prepsre. Quick is a great goalie but Habs never had anything close to Kopitar/Carter and Doughty in their prime...

I don't think it's fair to evaluate Timmins in hindsight when Quick wasn't close to a sure thing as Price and Kopitar was skipped over by 9 teams after Crosby.

Thats why I say TT took a great talent. But in the grand scheme of things the habs would of been better off trading down grabbing Kopi and Quick/Bishop. The trading down part goes hand in hand with the whole 9 teams skipping him.

Price is great, but outside of his 1 heart/Vezna season is there really anything he has done that a Quick/Rask/Bishop couldn't have?

TT got the right talent. But looking at that draft there were 3 goalies and 1 center available that would of made a lot more sense overall. If someone was an amazing scout they would of seen this. An average scout wouldn't have. Sure if we drafted Brule and didn't pick up Bishop/Quick in the 3rd round it would of been an epic fail along the lines of 04/06 so I have to give TT credit for selecting an amazing talent. BPA for sure.

But in the grand scheme of things, and this teams need for Centers, I put this up there with 06 and missing Giroux and 10 missing Kuznetsov.
 

dcyhabs

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It's easy to draft after the fact. It's easy to declare victory after picking as well. Some players improve, some regress, some stagnate. The main criticism I have is when they ignore offensive production as that is one of the few reliable indicators. Goalies are voodoo and defencemen are badly evaluated (other than in terms of scoring) so there is reason to take offense in the first round. There is a better chance it translates.

Picking Fischer and Tinordi in the first round was doubly dumb. Taking Price was risky. Beaulieu was not a bad pick, especially considering the other options, but if you have the option you take the guy who puts up points. And you don't consider anyone who falls below the statistical limits for making the NHL in the first 2-3 rounds.

You have to consider what is available in a draft. Andrighetto was not a great player but he was a great pick for his draft year and position.

I guess you have to not blow it in the big years. Kostitisyn would have been fine in many drafts but not that year. In the same vein I'm not sure going off the board and trading down early was the way to go this year. We'll find out.

Timmins tends to do the little things, checking age and trending. It's easy to knock the guy after the fact for not taking the players who are having success now, it's harder to compare with other teams. The secret is probably lots of picks. Boston has done well but then they whiffed on their 3 consecutive first round picks not long ago. It's not an exact science, more guesswork and projections.
 
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