Trevor Timmins Discussion (Part V)

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Garo

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:laugh: two of the sources I linked to were NHL's Central Scouting, and ISS. The two most renowned scouting services in the world. Literally professional scouting organizations. Both had him outside the top 3. You are unbelievable.

Even if we accept this - which is tricky, since Grigorenko is third on that list and Grigorenko fell extremely hard in the month preceding the draft - there isn't really a point to this isn't it? You're so keen on making the weirdly irrelevant point that Galchenyuk wasn't a consensus pick at third that you're willing to take a list that had Yakupov Murray and Grigorenko ahead of him as evidence of what, Timmins messing up? Let's be pedant a bit and just say that the consensus was that both Galchenyuk and Forsberg were the best forwards available, and that the consensus when the pick was made was that it was the right and logical pick, then. Galchenyuk only had an iffy ranking at times because of the year missed, that was the general wisdom at the time.

Was that the year Timmons let Reilly / Trouba / Ceci goooo? Yes Timon’s is to blame. They picked by position and not BPA

We need to always pick best player available. Trade them later if need be. But always BPA

No one, literally no one, was saying that that these three were BPA. BPA isn't necessarily the player will be the most valuable out of all the players guaranteed cause that's an absurd task to ask of both the scouts and the player considering how impossible these things are to predict. Reilly is, again, one of two players you could have argued, maybe, even though hardly anyone thought Reilly was in the conversation and that might have been Burke's only moment of genius in his tenure over the Leafs.

But anyway... that list doesn't really make sense much either. Galchenyuk isn't a bust for the Habs, like at all. He was a good offensive player for a few years, with a high of thirty goals and some moments of brilliance. Even if it's not what everyone hoped for and rightly so, that definitely wasn't negative value in a middling draft, and we were able to turn that into a potential first line centre, or at least a first line forward before his value cratered. The Galchenyuk pick is definitely not why this team struggles to take the next step, and it's wild to say that Timmins should have picked fricking Ceci even with the benefit of hindsight considering what that pick did for us and much more it is than Ceci would have. It's arguably more than Trouba too, who put together a few good seasons, a few uneven ones, and got traded for way lesser assets than Domi.
 

Goldenhands

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can't judge a draft even a few years after it. But all the recent drafts look good so far

2015: Juulsen
2016: Sergachev, Mete
2017: Poehling, Brook, Primeau (plus Fleury and Ikonen)
2018: Kotkaniemi, Romanov, Ylonen, (plus Harris, McShane, Fonstad)
2019: Caufield, Struble, etc...

And yes, we have more than 5 players from the 4 drafts that have played in the NHL - so far (Juulsen, Sergachev, Mete, Poehling, Kotkaniemi). And they all look like top 4 D or top 6/9 forwards.
But but but, apparently Timmins sucks at drafting, right?
 
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Garbageyuk

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There are a lot of kids on these boards who are too young to remember anything about a draft that was 7 years ago.

Galchenyuk was the most unanimously agreed upon first round pick on this board that I have seen in my 21 years here on HFBoards. Perhaps Sergachev comes close but that is it. He was the center that almost everyone was clamouring for. There was very little support for taking Rielly, as the most vocal opposition to Galchenyuk was from Grigorenko supporters but even that crowd dwindled significantly as the draft approached. There were small pockets of Forsberg supporters but it really was about getting that center and it was a landslide victory for Galchenyuk.

That is without factoring in everyone knew Montreal was going to take a center. This entire board knew it was coming as well and near unanimously applauded it as you would if you were old enough at the time.

Put away your biased, revisionist goggles and accept that the pick seemed like a good pick at the time but just didn't work out. This happens all the time, as a matter of fact it holds true for the vast majority of picks in every draft ever held.

Now dust yourself off and move on.

You claimed that he was drafted ahead of Rielly, Trouba and Dumba even though they were all ranked ahead of him by most people. That is just incorrect and likely a direct lie as your intellectual dishonesty has been on full display.

Curious why you didn't list these other rankings when you posted Galchenyuk's......I had a peak and think I just might know lol

I could tell you why but you, along with everyone else knows why. Provide facts to back up your claim or direct your tin foil hat towards another signal.

Galchenyuk was ranked higher than all of them on almost every list.

You are were knowingly lying and punching well out of your weight class with me.

Welcome to my ignore list

My problem with the previous poster was that he was making false claims about players being ranked ahead of Galchenyuk and Timmins reaching for the pick.

Oh really? Because in this this thread: Nikita "Marschak" Scherbak

You made the following posts (post #771 and post #776):

There were alot of people on this board that wanted Grigorenko, Forsberg, Trouba and even Teravainen at 3rd overall. Galchenyuk was never in any serious discussion about going first over all.

I would know this because I was all alone in my belief that he was the best prospect in the draft. I argued/debated Galchenyuk's superiority over these players for months. There was an especially annoying and sizeable contingent that were positive that Grigorenko was our man and laughed at me for guaranteeing Timmins would take Chucky and that Grigorenko was likely to slip out of the top 10..........funny that I never heard a peep from any of them after the draft.​

The consensus within the hockey world was that Yakupov and Murray would go with the first two picks. It was then a bit of a crapshoot after that as Galchenuk was definitely a wild card and his selection at #3 was widely viewed as a gutsy call and a significant gamble.​

So which is it?

It seems you have no idea what you yourself has posted in the past, much less what anyone else has. Either that, or you are just outright lying or looking for conflict. How many times did you call me a liar and question my "intellectual honesty"? Any credibility you may have had in this debate is now gone.
 
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Habs

We should have drafted Michkov
Feb 28, 2002
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Oh really? Because in this this thread: Nikita "Marschak" Scherbak

You made the following posts (post #771 and post #776):





So which is it?

It seems you have no idea what you yourself has posted in the past, much less what anyone else has. Either that, or you are just outright lying or looking for conflict. How many times did you call me a liar and question my "intellectual honesty"? Any credibility you may have had in this debate is now gone.

Play nice, Estimated Prophet is usually right on the money and stays doesn't stray from his opinions. Be careful who you call out, he's one of the good ones.
 

Adam Michaels

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That's is where he belongs. What a ****ty pick it was !

I remember when he was selected in 2014, the broadcasters mentioned that teams may have been turned off by Scherbak because they were afraid of the Russian factor and the KHL. They then mentioned Habs' Russian contingent and said that Habs don't have those fears.

Now, even though he didn't turn his back on Habs to go to Russia, he still ended up in the KHL.
 

montreal

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So in the Caufield thread it was said by Arpon Basu that MB badly wanted Cam York and if philly didn't take him or Caufield then there was going to be a big debate at the table as to who they would take. I don't know how legit this is and it's not an exact quote so if someone wants to post it here. What got me interested wasn't York or Caufield but the fact that MB wanted a player and may have overridden Timmins if this was indeed true and even then we won't ever know how it would have played out.

Over the years in these Timmins threads there's been a lot of it's not MB's fault he doesn't scout or make the picks whereas I have always stated we just don't know what goes on in the room, how much say does Churla have since he was hired by MB and now how much say does MB have.
 

Habs Halifax

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So in the Caufield thread it was said by Arpon Basu that MB badly wanted Cam York and if philly didn't take him or Caufield then there was going to be a big debate at the table as to who they would take. I don't know how legit this is and it's not an exact quote so if someone wants to post it here. What got me interested wasn't York or Caufield but the fact that MB wanted a player and may have overridden Timmins if this was indeed true and even then we won't ever know how it would have played out.

Over the years in these Timmins threads there's been a lot of it's not MB's fault he doesn't scout or make the picks whereas I have always stated we just don't know what goes on in the room, how much say does Churla have since he was hired by MB and now how much say does MB have.

I think Timmins is our future GM.
 
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Chili

En boca cerrada no entran moscas
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So in the Caufield thread it was said by Arpon Basu that MB badly wanted Cam York and if philly didn't take him or Caufield then there was going to be a big debate at the table as to who they would take. I don't know how legit this is and it's not an exact quote so if someone wants to post it here. What got me interested wasn't York or Caufield but the fact that MB wanted a player and may have overridden Timmins if this was indeed true and even then we won't ever know how it would have played out.

Over the years in these Timmins threads there's been a lot of it's not MB's fault he doesn't scout or make the picks whereas I have always stated we just don't know what goes on in the room, how much say does Churla have since he was hired by MB and now how much say does MB have.
Some gms scout for the draft, especially if they have top 5 picks. I doubt they override their scouts much if they have only seen a player a couple of times though. The scouts have seen these players numerous times in many cases, they would have more knowledge.
 

JeffreyLFC

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can't judge a draft even a few years after it. But all the recent drafts look good so far

2015: Juulsen
2016: Sergachev, Mete
2017: Poehling, Brook, Primeau (plus Fleury and Ikonen)
2018: Kotkaniemi, Romanov, Ylonen, (plus Harris, McShane, Fonstad)
2019: Caufield, Struble, etc...

And yes, we have more than 5 players from the 4 drafts that have played in the NHL - so far (Juulsen, Sergachev, Mete, Poehling, Kotkaniemi). And they all look like top 4 D or top 6/9 forwards.
I personally consider 2015 very poor although we had no top picks. The depth was insane and we only got a bottom pairing defenseman in Juulsen. I don't consider that good at all.

2016 was good, I agree but we traded our best asset from it.

2017 and 2018 are looking amazing.

2019 obviously jury is still out.
 

JeffreyLFC

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Some gms scout for the draft, especially if they have top 5 picks. I doubt they override their scouts much if they have only seen a player a couple of times though. The scouts have seen these players numerous times in many cases, they would have more knowledge.
I think they rank them by group.

IMO they had York, Caufield and Krebs in the same group. The GM has the last call on the player.

I remember Timmins saying that the scouts told, for the 2005 draft, Gainey to decide between a potential franchise goaltender or a top 4 defenseman in Staal and Gainey went with his scouting team and drafted Price.
 

montreal

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Some gms scout for the draft, especially if they have top 5 picks. I doubt they override their scouts much if they have only seen a player a couple of times though. The scouts have seen these players numerous times in many cases, they would have more knowledge.

I remember Gainey saying he trusted his scouts but with MB who knows.
 

Chili

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I think they rank them by group.

IMO they had York, Caufield and Krebs in the same group. The GM has the last call on the player.
It probably isn't a democracy but a gm making a call on a player he hasn't seen much of sounds pretty risky.

If he doesn't trust his scouts, would think he should find others.
 

JeffreyLFC

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It probably isn't a democracy but a gm making a call on a player he hasn't seen much of sounds pretty risky.

If he doesn't trust his scouts, would think he should find others.
I am not sure what you mean? What make you think he does not trust his scouts?

If your scouts tell you that you have to select between:

Debrincat (Caufield)
Barzal (Krebs)
York (Giordano)

The GM make the final call. Of course the GM can say to the head scout you decide.
 

JeffreyLFC

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Your post said above the GM has the final call. If he is overriding his scouts, does he trust them?
He is not overriding he is using his scouts knowledge and ranking to decide. As I said the scouts having already ranked the players in the same group.
 

26Mats

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I personally consider 2015 very poor although we had no top picks. The depth was insane and we only got a bottom pairing defenseman in Juulsen. I don't consider that good at all.

2016 was good, I agree but we traded our best asset from it.

2017 and 2018 are looking amazing.

2019 obviously jury is still out.

Who did you want in 2015? Bergevin mandated that Timmmins get a dman in the first round. Which D was better than Juulsen at 26?

Sure Carlo is good, who went 37th. But Juulsen has also shown promise. Many think he'll become a very good 2nd pairing Dman. Let's let his eye heal and see how he performs when he can actually see straight.
 

Chili

En boca cerrada no entran moscas
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He is not overriding he is using his scouts knowledge and ranking to decide. As I said the scouts having already ranked the players in the same group.
I believe Timmins said that he had seen Caufield at least 15 times. Some of their other scouts must have seen a bunch of him too. Don't know how many times Bergevin had seen him but with all a gm has to do, doubt it's in that range. Would just seem wise to listen to your scouts. As I said above though, have heard gm's who are out of the playoff race early doing some of their own scouting. After the trade deadline, they don't have much to do, so they would have time.
 

JeffreyLFC

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Who did you want in 2015? Bergevin mandated that Timmmins get a dman in the first round. Which D was better than Juulsen at 26?

Sure Carlo is good, who went 37th. But Juulsen has also shown promise. Many think he'll become a very good 2nd pairing Dman. Let's let his eye heal and see how he performs when he can actually see straight.

The bad decision would have to be insisting on a defenseman over BPA. I doubt Bergevin interfered by saying I absolutely want a defenseman. And even going by your assumption. Getting a bottom pairing defenseman in the 1st round is not smart. If what you say is true you trade down collect assets (2x 2nd) and get more value and select your defenseman.
 

JeffreyLFC

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I believe Timmins said that he had seen Caufield at least 15 times. Some of their other scouts must have seen a bunch of him too. Don't know how many times Bergevin had seen him but with all a gm has to do, doubt it's in that range. Would just seem wise to listen to your scouts. As I said above though, have heard gm's who are out of the playoff race early doing some of their own scouting. After the trade deadline, they don't have much to do, so they would have time.
So Timmins also saw York more than 15 times? He obviously gave great review on York if not he would not have been considered.
 

Chili

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So Timmins also saw York more than 15 times? He obviously gave great review on York if not he would not have been considered.
Didn't hear anything mentioned. Don't know what the average of seeing these kids is but probably varies with each player and how many major tournaments they play in. And how high they are on that player.
 
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