Trevor Timmins Discussion (Part V)

[Whitesnake]

Sounds like you need to review your expectations of late draft picks. ''Only'' getting a 1st line RW in four years of drafting in the 20s in the 1st round is way above average

You need to do the best you can with every pick you have. False that the fact that luck was on our side, that it then is perfect to fail on every other pick 'cause we hit a homerun with 1 pick. That's not how you build a team. It's really as if people analyze a draft as if it's a contest by itself. Just like the thread with Bergevin and his trades. The whole idea of the draft is not only to draft quality but to draft quality as often as you can. So that you could perpetually rebuild through trades and such. Especially in today's game. Where you can lose players fairly easily. Where you need a strong lineup of kids to succeed 'cause you could easily reach the cap. Being satisfied with 1 great pick in 5 years is why this team has been so ordinairy in the past years. And another proof of that is that some posters in here are really excited....but not because we got KK and only him. But because the quality seems to exist in a nice quantity. If everybody succeeds the way they are succeeding now, it then means a contending team for years to come.....but if you only find 1 or 2, it will not be enough.

 

[dcal64]

Why do the Habs rank 28th in NHL production from the 08-11 draft years then? Only Gallagher from 4 years of drafting is not good man. Keep trying

Curious why you don't include 2007 (McDonagh, Subban, Pacioretty, Weber)? Why start with 2008 (no 1st round pick)?

 

[ryan callahan]

Why do the Habs rank 28th in NHL production from the 08-11 draft years then? Only Gallagher from 4 years of drafting is not good man. Keep trying

Yeah keep using NHL production as if it was a good metric. Say we'd have drafted two Boedkers instead of one Gallagher. We'd be far ahead of our current Habs in production but I take one Gallagher over multiple Boedkers and it is not even close. And besides all our picks in the first round in that time period was around the 20 mark (Didn't even have one in '08), so it was hard to find anything decent.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Yeah keep using NHL production as if it was a good metric. Say we'd have drafted two Boedkers instead of one Gallagher. We'd be far ahead of our current Habs in production but I take one Gallagher over multiple Boedkers and it is not even close. And besides all our picks in the first round in that time period was around the 20 mark (Didn't even have one in '08), so it was hard to find anything decent.

Ending up with Gallagher only from 4 years of drafting is not good. You said it's "way above average". I disagree. The main reason why it was both bad picks and not having enough darts. Only 8 top 100 picks in that span from 08-11. That's not going to get it done.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Curious why you don't include 2007 (McDonagh, Subban, Pacioretty, Weber)? Why start with 2008 (no 1st round pick)?

07 was one of our best drafting years in our history. The point is we followed that up with one of the worse 4 year spans you will see. You can add the 07 draft if you wish but are you trying to say this justifies our drafting in the 4 years after that draft? Come on man. It's a dark hole and it greatly affected our ability to support that 07 draft with more impact players. We were forced to try to improve our team with trades and UFA and we all know how that went? No centers after Pleky and holes to fill.

 

[Habs Halifax]

How is he in good hands? The development track record of the Bergevin regime has been spotty at best.

I can understand you think that way cause you think we should of developed Tinordi, Hudon, Beaulieu, Galchenyuk, DLR, Scherbak, McCarron into better hockey players? They are who they are IMO.

I was not happy with hanging onto Sly for so long but what did he have really? Our prospect pool was not deep at all.

I'm fine with how they are handling things but I would of not played Kotkaniemi last year. Rather you dominate a development league before we are premature and insert you in the NHL cause our center depth is shit. Not overall upset about it but certainly not how I would of personally managed that asset we drafted as a long term prospect.

We are not destroying Poehling's development by playing him LW on the 4th line. He's learning a lot at a rapid rate right now... coaches systems, game intensity, ect. I say we make a decision when he has 10 games. If we do this for the entire season, then we can talk.

 

[dcal64]

07 was one of our best drafting years in our history. The point is we followed that up with one of the worse 4 year spans you will see. You can add the 07 draft if you wish but are you trying to say this justifies our drafting in the 4 years after that draft? Come on man. It's a dark hole and it greatly affected our ability to support that 07 draft with more impact players. We were forced to try to improve our team with trades and UFA and we all know how that went? No centers after Pleky and holes to fill.

I am saying you conveniently start your 4 year span after Timmin's best draft ever, and you start your 4 year span on a draft year we have no 1st round pick, 2009 (no 2nd round pick), 2010 (no 2nd round or 3rd round pick), 2011 (no 2nd or 3rd round pick), I just find that disingenuous.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I am saying you conveniently start your 4 year span after Timmin's best draft ever, and you start your 4 year span on a draft year we have no 1st round pick, 2009 (no 2nd round pick), 2010 (no 2nd round or 3rd round pick), 2011 (no 2nd or 3rd round pick), I just find that disingenuous.

It's disingenuous to not understand my point that seems to went over your head cause you think that I am purposely omitting the 07 draft for some reason you created in your head.

Don't you realize the conversation started with Bergevin/Timmins and what they have done? In 2012, the 07 picks were not prospects anymore. If the 07 draft happened in the middle of the 08-11 span, you might have a point. But it's not the case so you don't have a point. Keep trying.

I already acknowledged the 07 draft was one of the best in franchise history. What else do you want me to say? Are you ok that we had the great 07 draft and if you add that to the worse 4 year span after that, it looks better? Give your head a shake

 

[gillyguzzler]

I can understand you think that way cause you think we should of developed Tinordi, Hudon, Beaulieu, Galchenyuk, DLR, Scherbak, McCarron into better hockey players? They are who they are IMO.

I was not happy with hanging onto Sly for so long but what did he have really? Our prospect pool was not deep at all.

I'm fine with how they are handling things but I would of not played Kotkaniemi last year. Rather you dominate a development league before we are premature and insert you in the NHL cause our center depth is ****.

We are not destroying Poehling's development by playing him LW on the 4th line. He's learning a lot at a rapid rate right now... coaches systems, game intensity, ect. I say we make a decision when he has 10 games.

The players you list did not develop adequately in Montreal but have also mostly been a bust elsewhere.

Tinordi may have been badly handled but he was never any good imo.
Hudon actually made the NHL is is actually 5th in scoring for 2012 5th round picks.
Beaulieu's downfall is his attitude and he hasn't done much in Buffalo and Winnipeg
Chucky is having a bit of a tough time in Pittsburgh and was certainly mishandled in Montreal.
DLR is what DLR is. Big and can skate but they couldn't give him magic hands and nor could the Red Wings.
Scherbak was a terrible pick. Can't even make the KHL now.
McCarron was a terrible pick. I believe he has one point in the AHL now.

Other than Chucky, none of those had the makeup to be impact NHLers.

 

[Habs Halifax]

The players you list did not develop adequately in Montreal but have also mostly been a bust elsewhere.

Tinordi may have been badly handled but he was never any good imo.
Hudon actually made the NHL is is actually 5th in scoring for 2012 5th round picks.
Beaulieu's downfall is his attitude and he hasn't done much in Buffalo and Winnipeg
Chucky is having a bit of a tough time in Pittsburgh and was certainly mishandled in Montreal.
DLR is what DLR is. Big and can skate but they couldn't give him magic hands and nor could the Red Wings.
Scherbak was a terrible pick. Can't even make the KHL now.
McCarron was a terrible pick. I believe he has one point in the AHL now.

Other than Chucky, none of those had the makeup to be impact NHLers.

Drafting and developing has been a big topic over the years on the Habs board. I just am not willing to criticize management and ignore context. I think the drafting was horrible from 08-15 so how do we expect the development to work out? It don't make sense to me. It has management hate written all over it.

Of course we could of handled some things better. Nobody is perfect. But expecting us to develop that limited talent is not something I'm going to put on the management's back. The drafting failure from 08-15 is a valid topic but there are different reasons why it failed at different points within that span.

No idea what the break down is but I feel development is like 75% on the player and 25% on the team. Something like that. The team can only do so much with what they have and the player has to have the hunger to improve and put the work into it. Weber said it himself... "Skill is there but they will get what they put into it"

 

[dcal64]

It's disingenuous to not understand my point that seems to went over your head cause you think that I am purposely omitting the 07 draft for some reason you created in your head.

Don't you realize the conversation started with Bergevin/Timmins and what they have done? In 2012, the 07 picks were not prospects anymore. If the 07 draft happened in the middle of the 08-11 span, you might have a point. But it's not the case so you don't have a point. Keep trying.

I already acknowledged the 07 draft was one of the best in franchise history. What else do you want me to say? Are you ok that we had the great 07 draft and if you add that to the worse 4 year span after that, it looks better? Give your head a shake

Okay I did not read the whole thread, but I always see people start to complain about Timmins with stats that start with 2008 (always after 2007).
But you neglect to state the fact that we lacked picks (1st, 2nd, and 3rd round) for that 4 year period, if you would have stated that I would not have called you out for being disingenuous.

 

[gillyguzzler]

Drafting and developing has been a big topic over the years on the Habs board. I just am not willing to criticize management and ignore context. I think the drafting was horrible from 08-15 so how do we expect the development to work out? It don't make sense to me. It has management hate written all over it.

Of course we could of handled some things better. Nobody is perfect. But expecting us to develop that limited talent is not something I'm going to put on the management's back. The drafting failure from 08-11 is a valid topic but there are different reasons why it failed at different points within that span.

No idea what the break down is but I feel development is like 75% on the player and 25% on the team. Something like that. The team can only do so much with what they have and the player has to have the hunger to improve and put the work into it. Weber said it himself... "Skill is there but they will get what they put into it"

From 2008 to 2011, Brendant Gallaguer is the only Habs draft pick to be an impact NHLer. It's sad and has certainly been discussed here often. Since then, it's been better with the exception of 2014 so they deserve some credit, including drafting Poehling in 2017. He'll be very good soon. Fleury was quite a steal at 87th overall.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Okay I did not read the whole thread, but I always see people start to complain about Timmins with stats that start with 2008 (always after 2007).
But you neglect to state the fact that we lacked picks (1st, 2nd, and 3rd round) for that 4 year period, if you would have stated that I would not have called you out for being disingenuous.

It's all good. It just sucks that we had a great 07 draft but then one of the worse 4 year spans right after it. The holes in our roster from 12-16 seasons have a lot do to with the 08-11 draft failure. 8 top 100 picks is horrible for 4 years. We had 7 top 100 picks in the 18 draft alone.

Someone else also tried to say that Gallagher from the 08-11 draft years was "way above average" results in the NHL. I don't think so! lol.

I think Bergevin's first mistake was not selling vets in the 12/13 season. He failed to realize that Gallagher, Beaulieu, Tinordi, Leblanc were not enough. We lacked quantity and quality was ok but no even close to what we have today. We were forced to fill holes with trades and UFA and that didn't work clearly

 

[Habs Halifax]

From 2008 to 2011, Brendant Gallaguer is the only Habs draft pick to be an impact NHLer. It's sad and has certainly been discussed here often. Since then, it's been better with the exception of 2014 so they deserve some credit, including drafting Poehling in 2017. He'll be very good soon. Fleury was quite a steal at 87th overall.

12 and 13 drafts are a huge disappointment when you consider the darts we had to throw at the board. Bergevin used his influence to get Timmins to draft "bigger" players and I believe that is true. However, in hindsight looking back, those were not deep draft years. We actually had 3 2nd round picks in 2013 and with our 3rd 2nd, we got the best of that round in Lehkonen?

Then we went through a span where we traded 2nd round picks from 14-16. Some think it's no big deal but you took darts out of Timmins hands. 2nd round Darts that Timmins has proven to do well with in recent drafts if there is talent to be taken.

I'd really like the Habs organization to come up with a policy where we do not trade any 1st or 2nd round picks for short term gains. In fact, based on our inability to sign impact UFA's, we should be trying to sell vets at the right time to get more 1st's or 2nd's in the future where we have a top 10 prospect pool (at worse) for the foreseeable future. We cheery pick what we want/need from who we draft and we trade others for more futures so the ball keeps rolling.

Trading Shaw for a 2nd and 3rd was smart. Maybe he did it cause of Aho offer sheet and to create cap room? Not sure but I love giving Timmins extra darts. I would also love to trade Weber, Tatar, and Byron for more futures. Why? Cause I don't think we are going on deep playoff runs in the short span

 

[WeThreeKings]

If I piss in your soup broth, it doesn't matter how many chefs you bring into the kitchen after, you're not gonna make a good soup.

Saying players who's development were ruined didn't become anything somewhere else as some point to say they would have never been good, is completely wrong.

It's human development 101. You have critical development years, and if development goes poorly there, it's hard to recover.

The funny thing is for a team that prides itself on being defensive and having these great defensive minds, they were unable to turn Jared Tinordi. A good skating tall defenseman.. into nothing. They couldn't even make him a bottom pairing PK specialist. If that's not trash development in the one area they are supposed to be good at, I don't know what is.

 

[Habs Halifax]

If I piss in your soup broth, it doesn't matter how many chefs you bring into the kitchen after, you're not gonna make a good soup.

Saying players who's development were ruined didn't become anything somewhere else as some point to say they would have never been good, is completely wrong.

It's human development 101. You have critical development years, and if development goes poorly there, it's hard to recover.

The funny thing is for a team that prides itself on being defensive and having these great defensive minds, they were unable to turn Jared Tinordi. A good skating tall defenseman.. into nothing. They couldn't even make him a bottom pairing PK specialist. If that's not trash development in the one area they are supposed to be good at, I don't know what is.

There is no right way to develop all players and you have to look at each case individually. So we were able to develop Pateryn but not Tinordi and both started in the AHL at the same time? How do you explain that? Tinordi was ruined cause he got a few NHL games before Pateryn?

I don't agree with your "completely wrong" narrative and you have to show me better examples to make me change my mind.

 

[bsl]

Galchenyuk isn't a franchise player though, he's a run of the mill 40 point NHL'er who will never realize his talent.
I can't be bothered to wait another 3 years to try and find a good draft from Bergevin, he's had enough time to prove he and his crew are total fools in the scouting department. Zero franchise talent since he took control of the team. How many years do you wait for your GM and scouting department to deliver? I think they dropped the ball on Kotkaniemi as well.

I said 4 years ago that if scherbak and Mac bust, Timmins should be gone. And you may be right about kk though it is early. Timmins has been bad for a long time.

 

[jaffy27]

It is absolutely not meaningless. Either make the team better or trade away veterans to get better picks.

Ya can we not compare ourselves to the Bruins? They know how to draft and develop players even with their terrible 2015 draft. We have drafted no top 6 players/top 4 dman outside the top 10 with Bergevin as the GM.

Bergevin doesn’t drFt the players though, the scouting staff does

 

[bsl]

Yeah keep using NHL production as if it was a good metric. Say we'd have drafted two Boedkers instead of one Gallagher. We'd be far ahead of our current Habs in production but I take one Gallagher over multiple Boedkers and it is not even close. And besides all our picks in the first round in that time period was around the 20 mark (Didn't even have one in '08), so it was hard to

Yeah keep using NHL production as if it was a good metric. Say we'd have drafted two Boedkers instead of one Gallagher. We'd be far ahead of our current Habs in production but I take one Gallagher over multiple Boedkers and it is not even close. And besides all our picks in the first round in that time period was around the 20 mark (Didn't even have one in '08), so it was hard to find anything decent.

Yeah keep using NHL production as if it was a good metric. Say we'd have drafted two Boedkers instead of one Gallagher. We'd be far ahead of our current Habs in production but I take one Gallagher over multiple Boedkers and it is not even close. And besides all our picks in the first round in that time period was around the 20 mark (Didn't even have one in '08), so it was hard to find anything decent.

find anything decent.

Nhl production is the only metric. What else? Habs drafted nice guys?

 

[DAChampion]

Bergevin doesn’t drFt the players though, the scouting staff does

Bergevin is responsible for the scouting staff.

 

[Tighthead]

Bergevin is responsible for the scouting staff.

He also gives them direction.

It is a non-delegable duty. Bergevin is wholly responsible for the draft, no matter how much he delegates.

 

[jaffy27]

Bergevin is responsible for the scouting staff.

So Primeau, Sergachev, Poehling, KK, Romanov, Brook, Fleury, Ylonen, Harris, Juulsen, Mete are all on Bergevin if they succeed.....?

okay, let’s see how this pans out

I know Suzuki, Tatar, Weber, Danault, Armia, Drouin, Petry are on him directly

 

[DAChampion]

So Primeau, Sergachev, Poehling, KK, Romanov, Brook, Fleury, Ylonen, Harris, Juulsen, Mete are all on Bergevin if they succeed.....?

okay, let’s see how this pans out

I know Suzuki, Tatar, Weber, Danault, Armia, Drouin, Petry are on him directly

Yes, Bergevin is responsible for everything that the organization does, good or bad.

ETA: Sergachev?

 

[jaffy27]

Yes, Bergevin is responsible for everything that the organization does, good or bad.

ETA: Sergachev?

He was responsible for drafting him??

He was also responsible for Alzner and that atrocious contract, and the Desharnais extension and the lack of centres for years.

just seems the Habs are taking a turn and for the best......we’ll see

 

[DAChampion]

He was responsible for drafting him??

He was also responsible for Alzner and that atrocious contract, and the Desharnais extension and the lack of centres for years.

just seems the Habs are taking a turn and for the best......we’ll see

Bergevin is responsible for drafting him but also for trading him away. So it's not obvious how to evaluate Bergevin.

If he busts I think that this actually looks good on Bergevin, because will have sold an asset at its peak value.