Trevor Timmins Discussion (Part V)

[DAChampion]

Galchenyuk most definitely didn't peak in his first year.

I'm baffled as to what argument you could use to even say that

By the most obvious metric: Points/60. His production was most efficient in his rookie season. He also got those points at even strength, whereas in subsequent seasons he became a power play specialist.


[MOD] you would also know that he was most confident, most creative, and most happy in his rookie season. Those attributes were steadily drilled out of him.

 

[The Great Weal]

your missing one of the top D prospects plus whatever you think of Juulsen and Fairbrother is solid.

Norlinder? The group looks solid, but I don't see any elite potential defenseman. It will be a huge issue in the future if we don't have at least one elite defenseman by the time our prospects are in their prime.

 

[montreal]

Norlinder? The group looks solid, but I don't see any elite potential defenseman. It will be a huge issue in the future if we don't have at least one elite defenseman by the time our prospects are in their prime.

Brook could be as he has the skills although he's had a slow start in the AHL offensively. Norlinder looks like he has the skills but not sure about how smart he is, he makes some questionable passes to players that are covered that result in turn overs and his ultra aggressive pinching in is going to give Julien fits (if he's still coach by the time he comes over and hopefully makes the Habs). Romanov I don't see as elite but it's hard to get a read on him when he plays so little in the KHL. If Harris can develop his offensive game, he's going to be something.

Getting a top pairing D, just like a #1 center on a contending team is going to be very difficult, if we fail at one or both we are f***ed.

 

[The Great Weal]

Brook could be as he has the skills although he's had a slow start in the AHL offensively. Norlinder looks like he has the skills but not sure about how smart he is, he makes some questionable passes to players that are covered that result in turn overs and his ultra aggressive pinching in is going to give Julien fits (if he's still coach by the time he comes over and hopefully makes the Habs). Romanov I don't see as elite but it's hard to get a read on him when he plays so little in the KHL. If Harris can develop his offensive game, he's going to be something.

Getting a top pairing D, just like a #1 center on a contending team is going to be very difficult, if we fail at one or both we are ****ed.

Agreed, I think as of today, most of those guys have top 4 upside. We aren't winning anything without that elite top pairing D. The good news is that we are a lot better at drafting and developing defensemen compared to forwards so there is definitely some hope, but I don't see anyone in the pipeline right now that has a legit shot at becoming that stud dman.

 

[Habs]

If he hade been a first-rounder and this was his draft+2 season, then I'd agree with you.

As things stand, with Struble finally playing after an injury that sidelined him for months and being a freshman in the competitive NCAA after having played high-school hockey the year before, your statement is erroneous, to put it lightly.

It is entirely possible that Struble never develops into the NHLer our scouting staff (and hockey community) hoped for, but judging him solely on the last few games is wrong and we should take into account the context and, most important of all, his progression from here on out.

Rinse, recycle and repeat for every Timmins gem that doesn't pan out.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Rinse, recycle and repeat for every Timmins gem that doesn't pan out.

How is this different with any other team? You make it sound like the majority make it?

 

[Habs]

How is this different with any other team? You make it sound like the majority make it?

Marc Bergevin has never developed a franchise player in all his time here with Timmins. Think about how pathetic that is. How many teams can say the same? We've been told over and over again how good our pipeline is and how good some of our prospects are, yet nothing. So I don't have high hopes for Struble, or anyone else at this point.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Marc Bergevin has never developed a franchise player in all his time here with Timmins. Think about how pathetic that is. How many teams can say the same? We've been told over and over again how good our pipeline is and how good some of our prospects are, yet nothing. So I don't have high hopes for Struble, or anyone else at this point.

Yet nothing? It's too early and the latest prospect pool has only been put together from the last 3 drafts!

Franchise player? Is it the Habs fault that Galchenyuk is who he is but was not a bad pick in 2012?

I think you need to re-post this in a few years if it turns to be true. Way to early to use the word pathetic and I also think you need to realize the quantity of picks and position of the draft over a span of time.

- 08-16 (9 draft years): 26 top 100 picks (51 total picks)
- 17-19 (3 draft years): 16 top 100 picks (39 total picks). Prorate that over 9 drafts and it = 48 top 100 picks and 117 total picks. Think about that for a min

Do you seriously not like what we have built in the last 3 drafts? We have not seen a development trend in draft +1/+2/+3 years in many decades. It could be disappointing but probability is working in our favor and we should not ignore trends.

 

[Habs]

Yet nothing? It's too early and the latest prospect pool has only been put together from the last 3 drafts!

Franchise player? Is it the Habs fault that Galchenyuk is who he is but was not a bad pick in 2012?

I think you need to re-post this in a few years if it turns to be true. Way to early to use the word pathetic and I also think you need to realize the quantity of picks and position of the draft over a span of time.

- 08-16 (9 draft years): 26 top 100 picks (51 total picks)
- 17-19 (3 draft years): 16 top 100 picks (39 total picks). Prorate that over 9 drafts and it = 48 top 100 picks and 117 total picks. Think about that for a min

Do you seriously not like what we have built in the last 3 drafts? We have not seen a development trend in draft +1/+2/+3 years in many decades. It could be disappointing but probability is working in our favor and we should not ignore trends.

Galchenyuk isn't a franchise player though, he's a run of the mill 40 point NHL'er who will never realize his talent.
I can't be bothered to wait another 3 years to try and find a good draft from Bergevin, he's had enough time to prove he and his crew are total fools in the scouting department. Zero franchise talent since he took control of the team. How many years do you wait for your GM and scouting department to deliver? I think they dropped the ball on Kotkaniemi as well.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Galchenyuk isn't a franchise player though, he's a run of the mill 40 point NHL'er who will never realize his talent.
I can't be bothered to wait another 3 years to try and find a good draft from Bergevin, he's had enough time to prove he and his crew are total fools in the scouting department. Zero franchise talent since he took control of the team. How many years do you wait for your GM and scouting department to deliver? I think they dropped the ball on Kotkaniemi as well.

Fair about Galchenyuk. But usually you get that franchise player with 1st or 2nd round picks with the higher degree of probability in the top 5/top 10 in the draft. I don't think it's fair to jump on Timmins back about the latest group we assembled cause we don't know who good or bad they are yet.

Like I said, if the latest group disappoints, then you have a leg to stand on. But the circumstance or context is not the same as before. We have finally stop trading away picks and we accumulated them in the last 3 drafts. I've looked at teams that do well with drafting... the trends tell me it's those who have more darts to go after potential targets.

Did you know that Tampa has the 6th highest amount of total picks in the last 12 drafts? One 1st OA pick and 9 top 10 picks? You can say yeah but the Oilers? That would be also a fair comeback. But the trends indicate those who do well, have lots of darts to throw at the board. There are expectations of course but that's not the general trend

 

[Habs]

Fair about Galchenyuk. But usually you get that franchise player with 1st or 2nd round picks with the higher degree of probability in the top 5/top 10 in the draft. I don't think it's fair to jump on Timmins back about the latest group we assembled cause we don't know who good or bad they are yet.

Like I said, if the latest group disappoints, then you have a leg to stand on. But the circumstance or context is not the same as before. We have finally stop trading away picks and we accumulated them in the last 3 drafts. I've looked at teams that do well with drafting... the trends tell me it's those who have more darts to go after potential targets.

Bergy has been here 7 years, and he hasn't drafted a franchise player yet. He has no gameplan for a team makeup. Caufield will not thrive in Montreal with a team this small, you need to insulate a sniper like that and let him do his thing. That kid will be put through the boards being surrounded with the smurfs up front in Habland. You cannot have a team this small and expect to do any serious run in the playoffs, or stay healthy.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Bergy has been here 7 years, and he hasn't drafted a franchise player yet. He has no gameplan for a team makeup. Caufield will not thrive in Montreal with a team this small, you need to insulate a sniper like that and let him do his thing. That kid will be put through the boards being surrounded with the smurfs up front in Habland. You cannot have a team this small and expect to do any serious run in the playoffs, or stay healthy.

It's actually 8 seasons now and you can't count the last 2 or 3 drafts cause they are too young. Are you trying to say the past = the future? I already showed you the difference in context/circumstance from the 08-16 draft years and how that compares to the last 3 draft years in terms of quantity of picks and how many top 100 picks we have.

I get what your saying and you could be right but the trends I see does not support it. They are prospects until they prove themselves, that is true. But why do you ignore the development trends and accomplishments? You are not one of those ones who think Tinordi and Beaulieu were top prospects who compare to our current group are you? They are like Mete and Juulsen in terms of how they were trending at similar age points. Brook has been a bit of a disapointment but Fleury has surprised. That's how it works when you have quantity. Doesn't include Romanov, Harris, Norlinder, Struble either.

Did you know where the Habs rank in terms of actual NHL production from the 16+ draft years (I don't have this season factored in yet)
- 1st in games played
- 7th in total points
- 7th in points/game

You are right about the drafts before that cause the results stink and we rank near bottom of the NHL. But the latest trends reveal different results and it comes at a time where we stopped trading away picks.

 

[Habs]

It's actually 8 seasons now and you can't count the last 2 or 3 drafts cause they are too young. Are you trying to say the past = the future? I already showed you the difference in context/circumstance from the 08-16 draft years and how that compares to the last 3 draft years in terms of quantity of picks and how many top 100 picks we have.

In this case, yes. Bergevin is a complete fool when it comes to critical thinking, planning ahead, or changing his methods. Our scouts in the west were useless for years, he kept them employed. He made moves the defied the youth movement, and speed philosophy which he was bragging about. Then he switched to his 'character' movement, that lasted 2 seasons till he switched back to speed puck movement... which is great, but useless without size , especially down the middle. So then 2 years ago he goes crazy at the draft, picking Centers no matter if they were BPA or not.

So picking Caufiled was a no brainer, that's doing what anyone would have done if he was available.

I will never believe Bergy or the scouts can do this job to a capable standard, they switch team direction every 2 years.

 

[Habs Halifax]

In this case, yes. Bergevin is a complete fool when it comes to critical thinking, planning ahead, or changing his methods. Our scouts in the west were useless for years, he kept them employed. He made moves the defied the youth movement, and speed philosophy which he was bragging about. Then he switched to his 'character' movement, that lasted 2 seasons till he switched back to speed puck movement... which is great, but useless without size , especially down the middle. So then 2 years ago he goes crazy at the draft, picking Centers no matter if they were BPA or not.

So picking Caufiled was a no brainer, that's doing what anyone would have done if he was available.

I will never believe Bergy or the scouts can do this job to a capable standard, they switch team direction every 2 years.

It's disingenuous to say we have Caufield but he won't count towards Bergevin/Timmins drafting him cause it was an obvious pick.

The latest trends just don't support your current concerns on how it will be the same as the past. You are going against the grain and I respect that. Book mark it for 2 or 3 years from now and lets see how it looks then.

 

[Wats]

Yet nothing? It's too early and the latest prospect pool has only been put together from the last 3 drafts!

Franchise player? Is it the Habs fault that Galchenyuk is who he is but was not a bad pick in 2012?

I think you need to re-post this in a few years if it turns to be true. Way to early to use the word pathetic and I also think you need to realize the quantity of picks and position of the draft over a span of time.

- 08-16 (9 draft years): 26 top 100 picks (51 total picks)
- 17-19 (3 draft years): 16 top 100 picks (39 total picks). Prorate that over 9 drafts and it = 48 top 100 picks and 117 total picks. Think about that for a min

Do you seriously not like what we have built in the last 3 drafts? We have not seen a development trend in draft +1/+2/+3 years in many decades. It could be disappointing but probability is working in our favor and we should not ignore trends.

There are people who STILL blame the 2008-2011 draft (which still produced the best drafted player past decade: Gallagher) for Bergevin's lack of drafting/development success.

You can spin it any way but the results aren't there yet. If you look up past threads in 2015, do you really think there won't be people hyping the 2012-2015 haul like you are with the last 3?

 

[Habs Halifax]

There are people who STILL blame the 2008-2011 draft (which still produced the best drafted player past decade: Gallagher) for Bergevin's lack of drafting/development success.

You can spin it any way but the results aren't there yet. If you look up past threads in 2015, do you really think there won't be people hyping the 2012-2015 haul like you are with the last 3?

Only Gallagher from 4 years of drafting is not good at all.

Not spinning anything. I'm looking at trends in front of our eyes. You can choose to believe it or not and that's your choice but the context of how we got here is not the same. You can spin it to be a potential negative if you wish but there is zero evidence other than Brook not producing as a pro in less than 25% of his first pro season so far.

Results in the NHL are not there yet, duh. We have not drafted McDavid here man. The kids we have drafted are not likely superstar talent but a lot of them have top of the line-up talent though.

Thomas has 4 pts in 13 games with the Blues as a 20 year old. I don't see the Blues being all down on the kid cause they are playing him on one of their top 2 lines not as a center BTW.

 

[Habs]

It's disingenuous to say we have Caufield but he won't count towards Bergevin/Timmins drafting him cause it was an obvious pick.

The latest trends just don't support your current concerns on how it will be the same as the past. You are going against the grain and I respect that. Book mark it for 2 or 3 years from now and lets see how it looks then.

I can only hope Bergevin and Timmins are long gone by then, but I know we will still be here debating prospects regardless.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I can only hope Bergevin and Timmins are long gone by then, but I know we will still be here debating prospects regardless.

Bergevin has 3 years in term left including this season. Not sure about Timmins but I don't see him going anywhere.

We might be debating two things in a few years from now... how good/bad the current prospects end up and how the prospects look from the 20-22 draft years.

I don't ignore trends and the latest group looks good. Nothing guaranteed in life but I rather have what we have than what we had before which lacked quality/quantity

 

[ryan callahan]

Only Gallagher from 4 years of drafting is not good at all.

Not spinning anything. I'm looking at trends in front of our eyes. You can choose to believe it or not and that's your choice but the context of how we got here is not the same. You can spin it to be a potential negative if you wish but there is zero evidence other than Brook not producing as a pro in less than 25% of his first pro season so far.

Results in the NHL are not there yet, duh. We have not drafted McDavid here man. The kids we have drafted are not likely superstar talent but a lot of them have top of the line-up talent though.

Thomas has 4 pts in 13 games with the Blues as a 20 year old. I don't see the Blues being all down on the kid cause they are playing him on one of their top 2 lines not as a center BTW.

Sounds like you need to review your expectations of late draft picks. ''Only'' getting a 1st line RW in four years of drafting in the 20s in the 1st round is way above average

 

[Habs Halifax]

Sounds like you need to review your expectations of late draft picks. ''Only'' getting a 1st line RW in four years of drafting in the 20s in the 1st round is way above average

Why do the Habs rank 28th in NHL production from the 08-11 draft years then? Only Gallagher from 4 years of drafting is not good man. Keep trying

 

[Favster]

Why do the Habs rank 28th in NHL production from the 08-11 draft years then? Only Gallagher from 4 years of drafting is not good man. Keep trying

I mean, I don't think anyone here is saying those were good draft years for the Habs. The good news is they seem to have updated their approach to amateur players evaluation in the last 2-3 years and for now, based on the progression of the drafted players, the results seem encouraging.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I mean, I don't think anyone here is saying those were good draft years for the Habs. The good news is they seem to have updated their approach to amateur players evaluation in the last 2-3 years and for now, based on the progression of the drafted players, the results seem encouraging.

You can only speak for yourself. The post you just replied to was me talking to someone trying to say Gallagher in 4 years of drafting (08-11) is "way above average". It's actually almost the worse production from a 4 year span in our history of drafting.

The change in approach you are talking about has a lot to do with more darts to throw at the board. But I do believe they have done more homework heading into the draft as well.

 

[Favster]

You can only speak for yourself. The post you just replied to was me talking to someone trying to say Gallagher in 4 years of drafting (08-11) is "way above average". It's actually almost the worse production from a 4 year span in our history of drafting.

The change in approach you are talking about has a lot to do with more darts to throw at the board. But I do believe they have done more homework heading into the draft as well.

Oh ya sorry, no for sure those were the dark days of our drafting. As for our the new approach, for sure they have more darts to throw but the independent European combines they've been running the last few years have been beneficial so far. Still early, but it's encouraging.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Oh ya sorry, no for sure those were the dark days of our drafting. As for our the new approach, for sure they have more darts to throw but the independent European combines they've been running the last few years have been beneficial so far. Still early, but it's encouraging.

We see it the same. It's early but the trends are certainly encouraging. I honestly don't think we will know how it looks for another 2 or 3 seasons. But to say it will result like the past is ignoring development trends after being drafted

 

[ahmedou]

I did some research to take a look on the Timmins's CV. I thought he was only relied to scouting with the Montreal Canadiens.

I'd like to know in what consisted his previous roles (Director of Player Development & Director/VP of Player Personnel, etc).