Trevor Timmins Discussion Part III

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AlexGretzchenvid

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It's hard hitting even hitting in the 2nd round, let alone rounds after that.

- Agree about Houde. 5th round shot in the dark. It happens
- Hillis (3rd round at 66) is another soft type and we already have so many. If he's not producing in Junior in his draft +1 and +2 years, then yeah, it starts to look like bust territory. 21 pts in 30 games as a 18 year old. We would like to see pt/game or more of production. It's early yet
- Fonstad (4th round at 128). Not surprised it may not turn out well
- McShane (4th round at 97). I actually like what I see but not expecting anything more than a bottom 6 or 4th line asset.

Kotkaniemi, Ylonen, Romanov, Olofsson. That's 4 solid picks and lets see how the 3 of them do at the U20's! Are they depth player in that tournament or do they stand out and provide impact to their teams.

Dont forget brook even though hes a 2017 pick
 
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Mrb1p

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Probably but they were couple guys still on my list way better.

The pick after Houde was one of them. Blade Jenkins.
I loved Jenkins and had him in my top 90 (maybe 60, I don't recall.) But he's not doing too hot either and he also has a lot of flaws as a player.

Saigeon, Sharangovich, Zhyuravlyov, Kral, Fagemo, Emilio-Petersen, Kruse, Kovalenko, Ingham, Boudrias, Zavgodronyi, Wesfalt, Shen, Topping are guys I would've liked with that pick, too. But hey, i didn't know who Stapley or Harris were and theyre doing pretty great so far, hits and misses, can't blame him.
 

Mrb1p

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Mete is in the AHL, how good is that? The JK debate will go on for years, but I'd wait a few years before calling that a homerun. Lots of talent was passed over for that pick.
He certainly has had a lot of busts and disappointments to go along with a few good picks, I personally don't care for him.
It won't go on for long, just like the Pettersson and Scheifele picks.

Mete is looking great in the AHL, exactly where he should've been in the first place, the fact that he made the NHL at 19 doesn't mean he's doing bad for going back to the AHL.
 

danyhabsfan

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I loved Jenkins and had him in my top 90 (maybe 60, I don't recall.) But he's not doing too hot either and he also has a lot of flaws as a player.

Saigeon, Sharangovich, Zhyuravlyov, Kral, Fagemo, Emilio-Petersen, Kruse, Kovalenko, Ingham, Boudrias, Zavgodronyi, Wesfalt, Shen, Topping are guys I would've liked with that pick, too. But hey, i didn't know who Stapley or Harris were and theyre doing pretty great so far, hits and misses, can't blame him.

me too I'm no expert but I like to pick players that put points on the board.

3rd: Kotkaniemi
35: Thomas
38: Wilde
56: Wise
66: Ragnarsson
71: Mclaughlin
97: Mcshane
123: Fonstad
128: Jenkins
133: Chyzowski
190: Topping

those were my pick BTW. I got some good one and some bad one.
 

Habs Halifax

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Mete is in the AHL, how good is that? The JK debate will go on for years, but I'd wait a few years before calling that a homerun. Lots of talent was passed over for that pick.
He certainly has had a lot of busts and disappointments to go along with a few good picks, I personally don't care for him.

Kotkaniemi is a solid piece for us at center. We have to tone down the expectations. This kid (12 months ago) was a mid round 1st round quality. The development and learning curve he is on is just way too unpredictable. I got on board with Kotkaniemi once I saw some video on his shot and goal scoring power. Take for example the goal he scored Saturday night. Once he learns how to get his shot off in small spaces, he's going to look even more better.

A goal scoring center who plays a 200' game and has very good vision with size? I'll buy this stock each and every time! No regrets here.
 

Whitesnake

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So, essentialy your just talking out of your ass and you don't actually know who's having a good or bad year ? Nice.

Lol @ suggesting McShane, Romanov, Olofsson, Gorniak, Poehling are having bad years.

How about Suzuki, Brook, Poehling, Primeau, Romanov, Olofsson, Ylonen all making their respective WJC team ? Is that bad too ?

lol. You really can't read. You ask me who I think are having bad years. I'm giving names. Then your response...is that I don't know? Yes, statswise those guys are having shitty years. Yes, I understand that EVERYTHING is not stats. But show me guys in lower levels with bad stats, and show me a good NHL'er. McShane should be much more than what he was LAST YEAR. Did I say that Poehling had a bad year? Hey selective reading again...I said that everybody would have expected to see his goals much higher up for a 3rd year NCAA guy who is a first rounder. But I didn't say he had a BAD YEAR. Gorniak is 64th U20 in the NCAA. Totally uneventful year. And I watch games too. Do you? Did you notice that I didn't mention Harris name in the bad year? Despite what seems the low number of points? But that's because he plays great. Were you not able to determine that since I don't name Brook and others...it's because I think they are having very good years? I had to list them too? lol

And then you go on with guys that are doing good....yes? They do. Wasn't your question about.....WHO IS HAVING BAD YEAR? Do you have trouble me answering you? Or you can't read your own post too?
 
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Habs Halifax

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Dont forget this years draft because we have alot of picks and prospect. I have a feeling bergevin will trade up this year.

Lets hope we acquire more picks and/or don't trade any away at the deadline! We have the depth so no need to trade picks for rentals. There is nobody we can acquire that helps us win a cup or gives us an edge over the Leafs, Lightning, Caps in the east.

Stay the course
 
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Mrb1p

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Kotkaniemi is a solid piece for us at center. We have to tone down the expectations. This kid (12 months ago) was a mid round 1st round quality. The development and learning curve he is on is just way too unpredictable. I got on board with Kotkaniemi once I saw some video on his shot and goal scoring power. Take for example the goal he scored Saturday night. Once he learns how to get his shot off in small spaces, he's going to look even more better.

A goal scoring center who plays a 200' game and has very good vision with size? I'll buy this stock each and every time! No regrets here.
Twelve months ago he wasn't even a first round quality prospect, most of us had him in the early 2nd, Kupari was the crown jewel of Finn C's.
 
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Habs

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Kotkaniemi is a solid piece for us at center. We have to tone down the expectations. This kid (12 months ago) was a mid round 1st round quality. The development and learning curve he is on is just way too unpredictable. I got on board with Kotkaniemi once I saw some video on his shot and goal scoring power. Take for example the goal he scored Saturday night. Once he learns how to get his shot off in small spaces, he's going to look even more better.

A goal scoring center who plays a 200' game and has very good vision with size? I'll buy this stock each and every time! No regrets here.

Yeah, I can see the talent in the kid, no doubt.
 

Habs Halifax

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Twelve months ago he wasn't even a first round quality prospect, most of us had him in the early 2nd, Kupari was the crown jewel of Finn C's.

Oh I remember. I remember reviewing the draft and potential centers available. I was looking way more harder at Kupari vs Kotkaniemi. It was only until January or February where some were pointing him out and I started to look into him more.

I believe his stock rose even more higher after the U18's in Apr ish.

Yeah, I can see the talent in the kid, no doubt.

What's your concerns? We could of done better?
 
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Habs

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What's your concerns? We could of done better?

Yes, also the fact that the entire team went full Pejorative Slur on the C position, neglecting the blueline. I mean even the Russian kid was a pick out of nowhere. Just a lot of questionable picks that draft, really strange to watch playout from start to finish. I mean, I get it, JK is your guy and you go with it. But the rest of the draft, so many odd picks. Maybe I've just had enough of Timmins , its been a long time.
 
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Habs Halifax

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Yes, also the fact that the entire team went full ****** on the C position, neglecting the blueline. I mean even the Russian kid was a pick out of nowhere. Just a lot of questionable picks that draft, really strange to watch playout from start to finish. I mean, I get it, JK is your guy and you go with it. But the rest of the draft, so many odd picks. Maybe I've just had enough of Timmins , its been a long time.

The thing to remember here is each team has a different draft board and ranking. The rankings we see all year from various sources should not be locked in place like so many tend to do. BPA only applies to your own evaluations

- Kotkaniemi was a rising stock and one of the youngest in the draft. We bought in and he is actually doing better than predicted. Most didn't even have him NHL ready for this year.

- Romanov was at the Habs invite combine camp in Europe more likely. They got a chance to see prospects who were not at the NHL combine and this was key. His skating stood out and lets face it, 2nd round picks are about taking guys you project to be good. It's not about taking the guy who other teams passed up on. Habs liked him and got their guy before someone else took him. I respect this kind of pick. He made the 2nd best hockey league in the world at age 18. This is a big deal.

I'd like to see the Habs do another Europe combine prior to this coming draft again. It's a really good way to get a good look at young players who may not be on radar
 
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Whitesnake

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Houde was a 5th rounder, its essentialy a wasted pick 10 years out of 11.

10 out of 11? How did you come with that stat? Unless...you're just talking out of your ass...Don't look but your own Timmins has a better record in the 5th than in the 3rd or 4th.
 
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Mrb1p

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lol. You really can't read. You ask me who I think are having bad years. I'm giving names. Then your response...is that I don't know? Yes, statswise those guys are having ****ty years. Yes, I understand that EVERYTHING is not stats. But show me guys in lower levels with bad stats, and show me a good NHL'er. McShane should be much more than what he was LAST YEAR. Did I say that Poehling had a bad year? Hey selective reading again...I said that everybody would have expected to see his goals much higher up for a 3rd year NCAA guy who is a first rounder. But I didn't say he had a BAD YEAR.

And then you go on with guys that are doing good....yes? They do. Wasn't your question about.....WHO IS HAVING BAD YEAR? Do you have trouble me answering you? Or you can't read your own post too?
The problem is that you are so biased that you come up with players who are not doing bad at all to prove a point, it's not my reading, it's just your intentions that are bad. Gotta keep a level head and keep bias out of the conversation. Were all adults around here, we can have an intelligent debate without it turning into lies.

Why didn't you say "McShane is .22 PPG under his draft year, that looks bad, but I haven't really taken a look at him, I also acknowledge that he's a late round pick and that Timmins won't hit on all of those, especially not projects like McShane." You also could've commented on the fact that he has a .10 better GPG from last year.

Why didn't you say "Romanov is playing in the 2nd best league in the league and thats amazing." Instead of bringing him up in the "not doing well" because he doesn't have a point ? Was Dmitri Orlov doing bad when he had a single assist in the KHL in his D+1 year ?

Why didn't you say "Olofsson is doing good in the 3rd best league in the world, his PPG went down, but he did upgrade a league from Allsvenskan to SHL, he's going to be a top 6 center for the Swedes in the WJC this year, I'm thrilled to see how he does!"

Why didn't you say "Gorniack isn't producing too much, but he's still doing just as good as players that went ahead of him, so thats encouraging."

Don't answer, the reason why is because you are biased and can't have an intelligent conversation on Timmins, youre too emotionally invested.
 

Whitesnake

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He made the 2nd best hockey league in the world at age 18. This is a big deal.

Absolutely. It is a huge deal. But in the upcoming years...he will need to put points on the board. Unless the idea was to get a smaller version of Alexei Emelin. Somehow, I think that they picked him thinking he'd be much more than that.
 
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Habs Halifax

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Absolutely. It is a huge deal. But in the upcoming years...he will need to put points on the board. Unless the idea was to get a smaller version of Alexei Emelin. Somehow, I think that they picked him thinking he'd be much more than that.

His production in the KHL in terms of points makes you wonder no doubt. But if he is able to be a shutdown type and provide puck moving ability, there is certainly value there. I'm very much interested to see how he does against player his own age in the U20's. This is where we all get a good look at what kind of game he has.

Look at Brodin for example. A lot of people are drooling over him and his 20-25 pts of production. Surely, there is more to it than that? :sarcasm:
 

1909

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His production in the KHL in terms of points makes you wonder no doubt. But if he is able to be a shutdown type and provide puck moving ability, there is certainly value there. I'm very much interested to see how he does against player his own age in the U20's. This is where we all get a good look at what kind of game he has.

Look at Brodin for example. A lot of people are drooling over him and his 20-25 pts of production. Surely, there is more to it than that? :sarcasm:


Maybe kids in Russia should not play at KHL level at 18 ?

Why not leave them playing in their age group and gain confidence (offensively) against kids their age ?
 

Whitesnake

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The problem is that you are so biased that you come up with players who are not doing bad at all to prove a point, it's not my reading, it's just your intentions that are bad. Gotta keep a level head and keep bias out of the conversation. Were all adults around here, we can have an intelligent debate without it turning into lies.

Why didn't you say "McShane is .22 PPG under his draft year, that looks bad, but I haven't really taken a look at him, I also acknowledge that he's a late round pick and that Timmins won't hit on all of those, especially not projects like McShane." You also could've commented on the fact that he has a .10 better GPG from last year.

Why didn't you say "Romanov is playing in the 2nd best league in the league and thats amazing." Instead of bringing him up in the "not doing well" because he doesn't have a point ? Was Dmitri Orlov doing bad when he had a single assist in the KHL in his D+1 year ?

Why didn't you say "Olofsson is doing good in the 3rd best league in the world, his PPG went down, but he did upgrade a league from Allsvenskan to SHL, he's going to be a top 6 center for the Swedes in the WJC this year, I'm thrilled to see how he does!"

Why didn't you say "Gorniack isn't producing too much, but he's still doing just as good as players that went ahead of him, so thats encouraging."

Don't answer, the reason why is because you are biased and can't have an intelligent conversation on Timmins, youre too emotionally invested.

Not sure who is emotionnally invested. How many games have you seen? I watch all of those guys play except Romanov. Did you?

Who cares where McShane was chosen. Was your question...Tell me which picks that were picked top 2 rounds look bad? Or which picks have bad years? Do you actually know that was is discussed right now is NOT where they will be in 5 years but what we are seeing today? You don't realize that for most players even the ones chosen in the 4th or after that, that the NORM is that a guy who happens to be almost PPG in his draft year happens to be scoring at a higher level than that? That's the norm? Do you not know that? WE are talking about what they should do in juniors. We are talking about what we see now. It has nothing to do with projections to bash whoever.

Why didn't I say the stuff about Romanov? 'Cause I keep saying till we knew he'd make it. Old news. Point was about the fact that chosen where he was, you'd wish some points. But playing in the KHL is a huge accomplishment. Said it 1000 times. You want proofs? Challenge me.

Olofsson statswise is dissapointing. He is. To this day. You ask who has a bad year but I have to talk about what he will do in 2 weeks. And let's see how he does!!!!. Do you hate or not used to people answering your questions?

Gorniak? Who are you talking about? How can you evaluate that his play in the NCAA is just as good as what Milos Roman does? Or what Kurashev is doing? Or what Mac Hollowell is doing? Who are you talking about?

And the basis of my argument was ONLY to prove that if we need to be careful with bad years, we need to stop projecting on good years. We can be happy about it. But if you can't call a player a bust after 1 year....you can't call a guy has a key player when he hasn't prooved it yet.

In the end , what matters is how they develop for what they'Ll do in the NHL. Still, in order to make it, you need stats. From defensive players to offensive players. And you need an upgrade over your draft year. That's the norm.
 
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Whitesnake

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His production in the KHL in terms of points makes you wonder no doubt. But if he is able to be a shutdown type and provide puck moving ability, there is certainly value there. I'm very much interested to see how he does against player his own age in the U20's. This is where we all get a good look at what kind of game he has.

Look at Brodin for example. A lot of people are drooling over him and his 20-25 pts of production. Surely, there is more to it than that? :sarcasm:

There are players like that. Brodin seems to be the kind of guy that people will think still has an upside at 50 years old. Not saying there are no value in a player like that. But....you have to just think that they thought he'd be more when chose so ahead of what people saw of him and so early in the 2nd round. Choosing him that soon clearly means, we have no choice and we just cannot let him go somewhere else. I doubt you'd be like that if you think you are acquiring a No. 5. But again, let's wait and see. Like you said and I said a thousand times, just making it is impressive. Next year....points will need to be added.
 

1909

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Lots of words written in this thread.... But here WHO knows really what's going on behind closed doors when Timmins, MB, the scouts, head scout are meeting to share their views about young players and why they should be drafted or not ?

I am not impressed by Timmins since a long long time. But he is not alone to make decisions. But Timmins has Player Dev vice-prez needs to have a clearer vision about what Habs need, and also keep an open mind about undrafted players, anywhere, but especially from the Q. How come Gourde, Marchesseault, Barré-Boulet are all falling on TB's lap ?
 
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Habs Halifax

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Maybe kids in Russia should not play at KHL level at 18 ?

Why not leave them playing in their age group and gain confidence (offensively) against kids their age ?

Same could be said about Kotkaniemi. Your talking to someone who has had a different opinion on it for years now. I always thought for a while now that no player under the age of 20 should play in the NHL unless the NHL deems them exceptional stats (like they have in the CHL).

Romanov is being sheltered on that top KHL team. They are grooming him the Russian way. Personally, I am interested to see how he plays in the up coming world juniors.

Lots of words written in this thread.... But here WHO knows really what's going on behind closed doors when Timmins, MB, the scouts, head scout are meeting to share their views about young players and why they should be drafted or not ?

I am not impressed by Timmins since a long long time. But he is not alone to make decisions. But Timmins has Player Dev vice-prez needs to have a clearer vision about what Habs need, and also keep an open mind about undrafted players, anywhere, but especially from the Q. How come Gourde, Marchesseault, Barré-Boulet are all falling on TB's lap ?

I think you should be more upset with Gainey, Gautheir, and Bergevin for trading picks away from 08-11 and from 14-16. 2012 was a disappointment. 2013 as well but we did hit with Lehkonen in the 2nd round. Go look at that 2nd round. We hit the best player available.

- Our ability to produce with the picks we had from 08-11 greatly affected our outcome.
- From 2012 forward, the Habs have done decent. Not bad but not good. I know we expect better than average but we are not worse in the league from 2012 forward.

The trend is this, when we give Timmins opportunity, he produces. The key is stock piling picks for him to hit on his picks.
 
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1909

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Same could be said about Kotkaniemi. Your talking to someone who has had a different opinion on it for years now. I always thought for a while now that no player under the age of 20 should play in the NHL unless the NHL deems them exceptional stats (like they have in the CHL).

Romanov is being sheltered on that top KHL team. They are grooming him the Russian way. Personally, I am interested to see how he plays in the up coming world juniors.

Kotkaniemi is an exceptional talent. Not Crosby or McDavid, but a potential star-player in the making.

I think you should be more upset with Gainey, Gautheir, and Bergevin for trading picks away from 08-11 and from 14-16. 2012 was a disappointment. 2013 as well but we did hit with Lehkonen in the 2nd round. Go look at that 2nd round. We hit the best player available.


I am too. Second rounders for Shaw was a killer. But who knows what Timmins would had drafted ? He liked Girard, but had Bitten very high on his list too... Sergachev should had been a keeper.
 
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Habs

We should have drafted Michkov
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Lots of words written in this thread.... But here WHO knows really what's going on behind closed doors when Timmins, MB, the scouts, head scout are meeting to share their views about young players and why they should be drafted or not ?

I am not impressed by Timmins since a long long time. But he is not alone to make decisions. But Timmins has Player Dev vice-prez needs to have a clearer vision about what Habs need, and also keep an open mind about undrafted players, anywhere, but especially from the Q. How come Gourde, Marchesseault, Barré-Boulet are all falling on TB's lap ?

Any team that would keep Crawford employed as a scout, has serious flaws in the system. For them to keep him around, makes me question their judgment on every draft pick and direction. I would let Crawford scout peewee hockey, he is a joke in the hockey world.
 
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