Trevor Timmins Discussion Part III

[Toene]

Scheifele 7th overall
Trouba 9th overall
Morrissey 13th overall
Ehlers 9th overall
Connor 17th overall
Laine second overall

Yeah, it's all about that miracle development! It has nothing to do with sucking for years and picking high year after year...

What if I told you...

both aren't mutually exclusive?

 

[Belial]

Right. Because every team that picks high has had such a good haul on top of success with later picks.

The Jets should just drop their philosophy. They've yet to understand their result is just confirmation bias.

Who are you even talking about?!

Copp? Lowry? Please...

That team is good because they nailed their high first round picks!

 

[Andrei79]

What if I told you...

both aren't mutually exclusive?

Then you would be asking a preschooler to solve a differential equation.

 

[Belial]

What if I told you...

both aren't mutually exclusive?

There's way too much emphasis around here on bad development and player mismanagement.

There's a reason sometimes 5th rounders become studs and first rounders bust! And it's not called coaching.

 

[Andrei79]

Who are you even talking about?!

Copp? Lowry? Please...

That team is good because they nailed their high first round picks!

Focus Belial. You're not on your ADHD meds and it shows.

We're not talking about whether later picks made Winnipeg good, but their drafting and development at large. Getting guys like Copp and Lowry from mid picks is very good. So is getting games from 6th and 7th rounders from 3 years ago. Or getting a good roster plater like Roslovic from a late first and even moreso their starter from a 5th.

Scheifele was a reach lacking strength and skating who needed development... Guess what happened there ? Out of all their picks, only Laine came it right away.

 

[Toene]

There's way too much emphasis around here on bad development and player mismanagement.

There's a reason sometimes 5th rounders become studs and first rounders bust! And it's not called coaching.

You seem like a dedicated Habs fan, as most posters here, but I'll tell you this : If you really wanted the Habs to win the cup, you wouldn't be so reticent to be critical of a management that delivered poor results. You would prefer no stones be left unturned (pro scouting, amateur scouting, management, coaching staff). But here you are, defending mediocrity. Do you really want the Habs to eventually win a cup? Or to win the next game? If it's the latter, I understand why you are fan of this org. Some of us want success, to watch a contending team. That's why our standard are higher than yours.

 

[Whitesnake]

Yeah, another misinterpreted and twisted quote that became a real thing around here. Nothing new.Same old.

A team that doesn't believe that winning for your farm team is that important is anti-development. A guy that keeps saying that winning isn't important, developing is, and can't seem to think that you actually can put those 2 together says a whole lot about the guy......Yes, we ALL understand that he meant that he wasn't going to rack his lineup with 32 years old just in order to have a winning team.....but his statement was such a cop-out as if both developing and winning could not co-exist. There were TONS of examples of that happening.

 

[Belial]

Focus Belial. You're not on your ADHD meds and it shows.

We're not talking about whether later picks made Winnipeg good, but their drafting and development at large. Getting guys like Copp and Lowry from mid picks is very good. So is getting games from 6th and 7th rounders from 3 years ago. Or getting a good roster plater like Roslovic from a late first and even moreso their starter from a 5th.

Scheifele was a reach lacking strength and skating who needed development... Guess what happened there ? Out of all their picks, only Laine came it right away.

There's no need to be condescending... You're not the guru of hockey buddy... Geez... Breathe or something.

You keep talking about some amazing development but who are you talking about exactly?

The majority of their top players didn't even play in the AHL!

So what development are you talking about!?

Scheifele has Zero AHL games!
Trouba Zero AHL games!
Ehlers Zero AHL games!
Laine Zero AHL games!

Give me a break man!

 

[Belial]

You seem like a dedicated Habs fan, as most posters here, but I'll tell you this : If you really wanted the Habs to win the cup, you wouldn't be so reticent to be critical of a management that delivered poor results. You would prefer no stones be left unturned (pro scouting, amateur scouting, management, coaching staff). But here you are, defending mediocrity. Do you really want the Habs to eventually win a cup? Or to win the next game? If it's the latter, I understand why you are fan of this org. Some of us want success, to watch a contending team. That's why our standard are higher than yours.

Completely irrelevant. Your criticism is often illogical and makes little sense.

A team that doesn't believe that winning for your farm team is that important is anti-development. A guy that keeps saying that winning isn't important, developing is, and can't seem to think that you actually can put those 2 together says a whole lot about the guy......Yes, we ALL understand that he meant that he wasn't going to rack his lineup with 32 years old just in order to have a winning team.....but his statement was such a cop-out as if both developing and winning could not co-exist. There were TONS of examples of that happening.

Again, the Dogs won the AHL cup in 06/07 and the only players that managed to have a decent career from that lineup are Halak and Price...

 

[domiwroze]

I hate to do that because in general I don’t agree with him on most points ... but Belial is right on that one, Jets didn’t get that good from coaching and development. Laine played most of his first 2 years on the 3rd line. go figure. Scheifele did the Pattersson patern, return to a lesser league to build a frame to be able to work with men. Their team had nothing to do with that tbh. It’s mostly great picks. Where Edmonton terribly failed for both picks and development.

Beaulieu is braindead
McCarron doesnt have any offensive skills
Same goes for DeLaRose
Chucky isn’t able to skate and move his hands at the same time. Like a drumer that can’t play the pedal because his hands follow the same rythms.
Etc etc.

We can blame a coaching staff all we want « but at the end of the day » - Marc Bergevin, the player has to be a pro to be able to develop.

You have an employee who works all year long on finding gems with his crew and at the end of the year you refuse to let him make the decision and you bypass his opinion. Hence the picks with gigantic Flaws that couldn’t be worked on by any coaching staff. Not saying Therrien or Lefebvre had nothing to do with shit development, but if you don’t have any kind of work ethic in your personal tools, you won’t be able to develop anyways.

P.s : i understand that you can have a different opinion but that shouldnt affect you to the point of attacking another poster personnaly. That’s pure BS, you should be ashamed.

 

[Sorinth]

There's no need to be condescending... You're not the guru of hockey buddy... Geez... Breathe or something.

You keep talking about some amazing development but who are you talking about exactly?

The majority of their top players didn't even play in the AHL!

So what development are you talking about!?

Scheifele has Zero AHL games!
Trouba Zero AHL games!
Ehlers Zero AHL games!
Laine Zero AHL games!

Give me a break man!

You do know development can happen outside the AHL right?

It's also funny you mention Scheifele as he was considered by many to not be living up to his draft status those first couple years after the draft.

Here's a fluff piece that talks a bit about it

 

[Belial]

You do know development can happen outside the AHL right?

It's also funny you mention Scheifele as he was considered by many to not be living up to his draft status those first couple years after the draft.

Here's a fluff piece that talks a bit about it

What are we even debating here at this point?

It was Lefebvre and Therrien sucks for years, now it's Julien also?

 

[Scriptor]

What are we even debating here at this point?

It was Lefebvre and Therrien sucks for years, now it's Julien also?

Same will be said of the next guy, including the next GM as long as we on't win a Cup. Even, then, to keep the constant biatching going, we,ll be claiming it was just a fluke, that the players still suck, the coaching staff still sucks, the GM and his assistants still suck and the owner is still a bonehead.

Hopefully, by then, the Expos will be back and I can read more intelligent observations in that forum.

 

[Toene]

Completely irrelevant. Your criticism is often illogical and makes little sense.

Look at this illogical thought process :

2011 : Habs are bottom-feeder -> Bergevin/Timmins/Dudley/MT/Julien work for 6 years -> 2017-18 : Habs are bottom-feeder.

Results are poor compared to expectations. And the architects are still here. Meaning stones HAVE been left unturned. And to refuse to even consider trying something else after a relevant sample size is without a doubt a form of denial from your part. Being the devil's advocate is fine but that's not what your doing. You're simply ignoring the majority of this managements tenure. These guys had what, 2 good offseasons tops? How long do they get in your opinion? 10? That's a long ass statu quo.

 

[Andrei79]

There's no need to be condescending... You're not the guru of hockey buddy... Geez... Breathe or something.

You keep talking about some amazing development but who are you talking about exactly?

The majority of their top players didn't even play in the AHL!

So what development are you talking about!?

Scheifele has Zero AHL games!
Trouba Zero AHL games!
Ehlers Zero AHL games!
Laine Zero AHL games!

Give me a break man!

Development doesn't start or end at the AHL level, it's an organisational philosophy.

I've seen people assume here that a players development path somehow becomes unaltered and impossible to influence the moment he gets drafted (i.e. at 18). How shortsighted is this ? It goes against all factual evidence and real world experience.

An example would be Finland which revampled its development philosophy in 2009. They centralized development, helped hire coaches and skills coaches for their teen players and hired a full time team for their national team program. That program keeps tabs with both players and their teams all the way up to the NHL: meaning well past even their draft year. Look at the results they've had. Look at the results american hockey has had with their national team + NCAA programs. For some reason, mid-late firsts up to even 7th rounders like Evans somehow benefit from added development even during their early 20s. And now the US has seen the most growth in % amongst NHL players out of any nation. Weird. It's like player development could be influenced by environmental factors, even past their draft year.

This brings me to Winnipeg. They have one of the most well structured development programs in the NHL. Their AHL is just one part of it. It's a means to and end. One step their players go through, if they have to. That said, their players, regardless of where they play (CHL, NCAA, AHL, whatever) are in contact with the Jets after every single game. They have to file structured game reports and objectives on how to improve their game every single time.

Interestingly, it seems like the most talented players (1st rounders), benefit the most out of a well structured program designed to get the most out of ones talent. It's actually not as interesting as it is expected.

That said, you may disregard my fan fiction and swallow up anything the team says about why it keeps failing at producing players. I'm of the mind that if management started becoming accountable (i.e. had the threat of losing their jobs instead of unwarranted promotions), their prospects would magically start hiring proper skating coaches and maintaining a steadier improvement pattern. They probably would have more potential to start with as well because a guy like Timmins with a decade of barren drafts would be fired and replaced by someone better. And, we wouldn't have to hear Martin Lapointe come on the radio, say how limited what he can offer players is while at the same time singing Timmins' praises.

 

[Andrei79]

Completely irrelevant. Your criticism is often illogical and makes little sense.



Again, the Dogs won the AHL cup in 06/07 and the only players that managed to have a decent career from that lineup are Halak and Price...

LOL.

Yeah, just a top 5 goaltender in his prime and a decent journeyman goaltender.

That's it.

Oh, and a 3 time 20 goal scorer in Kostitsyn.

And a 3 time 20 goal scorer in Grabovski.

and a 7 year (as a full time roster player) 482 NHL games career by Chipchura.

and 614 NHL games by Maxim Lapierre.

and 324 NHL games by Matt D'Agostini.

and 300 NHL games by O'Byrne.

That's all.

A trophy winning G, a no2 G, 2 top 6ers, 2 bottom 6ers, a depth forward and a depth D from your farm club... that's it all it was you guys.

 

[Toene]

Development doesn't start or end at the AHL level, it's an organisational philosophy.

I've seen people assume here that a players development path somehow becomes unaltered and impossible to influence the moment he gets drafted (i.e. at 18). How shortsighted is this ? It goes against all factual evidence and real world experience.

An example would be Finland which revampled its development philosophy in 2009. They centralized development, helped hire coaches and skills coaches for their teen players and hired a full time team for their national team program. That program keeps tabs with both players and their teams all the way up to the NHL: meaning well past even their draft year. Look at the results they've had. Look at the results american hockey has had with their national team + NCAA programs. For some reason, mid-late firsts up to even 7th rounders like Evans somehow benefit from added development even during their early 20s. And now the US has seen the most growth in % amongst NHL players out of any nation. Weird. It's like player development could be influenced by environmental factors, even past their draft year.

This brings me to Winnipeg. They have one of the most well structured development programs in the NHL. Their AHL is just one part of it. It's a means to and end. One step their players go through, if they have to. That said, their players, regardless of where they play (CHL, NCAA, AHL, whatever) are in contact with the Jets after every single game. They have to file structured game reports and objectives on how to improve their game every single time.

Interestingly, it seems like the most talented players (1st rounders), benefit the most out of a well structured program designed to get the most out of ones talent. It's actually not as interesting as it is expected.

That said, you may disregard my fan fiction and swallow up anything the team says about why it keeps failing at producing players. I'm of the mind that if management started becoming accountable (i.e. had the threat of losing their jobs instead of unwarranted promotions), their prospects would magically start hiring proper skating coaches and maintaining a steadier improvement pattern. They probably would have more potential to start with as well because a guy like Timmins with a decade of barren drafts would be fired and replaced by someone better. And, we wouldn't have to hear Martin Lapointe come on the radio, say how limited what he can offer players is while at the same time singing Timmins' praises.

Exactly. But the poster isn't in solution-mode because he doesn't admit to himself that the poor results even exists.

 

[Belial]

Look at this illogical thought process :

2011 : Habs are bottom-feeder -> Bergevin/Timmins/Dudley/MT/Julien work for 6 years -> 2017-18 : Habs are bottom-feeder.

Results are poor compared to expectations. And the architects are still here. Meaning stones HAVE been left unturned. And to refuse to even consider trying something else after a relevant sample size is without a doubt a form of denial from your part. Being the devil's advocate is fine but that's not what your doing. You're simply ignoring the majority of this managements tenure. These guys had what, 2 good offseasons tops? How long do they get in your opinion? 10? That's a long ass statu quo.

It seems like a lot of people around here are in the cup or bust group... If your expectations are the cup and anything less will get you mad and disappointed then it's not me who should raise my standards, it's probably you who should relax a bit...

And to be honest, at what moment exactly since Bergevin took over, your expectations where we are a true contender?

 

[ECWHSWI]

wonder what's so exceptionnal about Bergevin, not the Habs, Bergevin that every single move he makes is being defended by "fans", that people completely forget the Habs but focus on and defend Bergevin himself on every front.

I mean, sure, you can like the guy (don't know why but hey! to each his own), but it's going so far beyond that it's scary.

Would really like to know, what is so f***ing great about Bergevin ?

 

[No fan fiction]

Yes he tried. You don't keep a GM for trying. You keep a GM for doing. Everybody tries. You think that every coach and GM that were fired didn't try something? You are on Timmins back....you think Timmins didn't do everything he could to get the best players possible? I have no idea where you are going for this. So we should be fine with whatever Bergevin does 'cause he has to have tried something.....but you bash Timmins because you think he hasn't tried enough?

When you keep repeating your 21 picks theory....isn't the conclusion you come to about what the end result is? And if so, how come you judge Timmins with actual results while you judge Bergevin with what his intentions where? Why the double standards? ESPECIALLY when everybody and their mother knows that the drafting game is MUCH MORE difficult than the GM game because scouting is based on what a player SHOULD be vs GM'ing is based on what players ARE?

Can you read? I mean seriously. Can. You. Read? 21 draft picks is not a theory. You want me to list them for you or can you read it yourself at Hockeydb.com: 21 picks.

Re DLR. The point you and others keep trying to make is the DLR was let go b/c of bad asset management, like Bergevin a) didn't try to trade him or b) that Bergevin hadn't lined up alternatives (by my count, there are at least 4, from Peca & Chaput to Froese and ultimately Vejdemo) or c) my favourite, the one that I hope you put flowers over the "i" every time for: that Bergevin should have traded him at the ultimate moment of ripeness, like the rare, ice-wine grape that JACOB 4TH LINER FOR DETROIT DE LA ROSE is.

That last, the key to your whole theory, is the stuff of fan fiction. Write for Marvel.

Finally, yes, it's a results-oriented business. Team is competitive. Makes money. Entertains.

 

[Belial]

Development doesn't start or end at the AHL level, it's an organisational philosophy.

I've seen people assume here that a players development path somehow becomes unaltered and impossible to influence the moment he gets drafted (i.e. at 18). How shortsighted is this ? It goes against all factual evidence and real world experience.

An example would be Finland which revampled its development philosophy in 2009. They centralized development, helped hire coaches and skills coaches for their teen players and hired a full time team for their national team program. That program keeps tabs with both players and their teams all the way up to the NHL: meaning well past even their draft year. Look at the results they've had. Look at the results american hockey has had with their national team + NCAA programs. For some reason, mid-late firsts up to even 7th rounders like Evans somehow benefit from added development even during their early 20s. And now the US has seen the most growth in % amongst NHL players out of any nation. Weird. It's like player development could be influenced by environmental factors, even past their draft year.

This brings me to Winnipeg. They have one of the most well structured development programs in the NHL. Their AHL is just one part of it. It's a means to and end. One step their players go through, if they have to. That said, their players, regardless of where they play (CHL, NCAA, AHL, whatever) are in contact with the Jets after every single game. They have to file structured game reports and objectives on how to improve their game every single time.

Interestingly, it seems like the most talented players (1st rounders), benefit the most out of a well structured program designed to get the most out of ones talent. It's actually not as interesting as it is expected.

That said, you may disregard my fan fiction and swallow up anything the team says about why it keeps failing at producing players. I'm of the mind that if management started becoming accountable (i.e. had the threat of losing their jobs instead of unwarranted promotions), their prospects would magically start hiring proper skating coaches and maintaining a steadier improvement pattern. They probably would have more potential to start with as well because a guy like Timmins with a decade of barren drafts would be fired and replaced by someone better. And, we wouldn't have to hear Martin Lapointe come on the radio, say how limited what he can offer players is while at the same time singing Timmins' praises.

This is all great man, but you still didn't show me some kind of amazing development made by that Jets organization! All those guys that are good were high draft picks and they were actually supposed to be good!

In 2013 they had two second round picks, two third round picks and two 4th round picks!

Where's the amazing development? Copp? 63 points in 247 GP? Is that what you're talking about?

Lehkonen has 66 points in 171 GP and Andrighetto has 70 points in 168 GP! Same draft year!

LOL.

Yeah, just a top 5 goaltender in his prime and a decent journeyman goaltender.

That's it.

Oh, and a 3 time 20 goal scorer in Kostitsyn.

And a 3 time 20 goal scorer in Grabovski.

and a 7 year (as a full time roster player) 482 NHL games career by Chipchura.

and 614 NHL games by Maxim Lapierre.

and 324 NHL games by Matt D'Agostini.

and 300 NHL games by O'Byrne.

That's all.

A trophy winning G, a no2 G, 2 top 6ers, 2 bottom 6ers, a depth forward and a depth D from your farm club... that's it all it was you guys.

Kostitsyn was a f***ing bust considering all the studs that were drafted after him in that year. And he didn't even play in the PO for the dogs that year.

Chipchura, O'Byrne, and company were fillers! Come on now... Games played in the NHL are suddenly a factor? It's funny how sometimes it's a factor and sometimes it's completely irrelevant...

Grabovski was decent but then again, the point still stands, Pacioretty didn't win shit in the AHL and he developed into a stud! Same for PK.

 

[Toene]

It seems like a lot of people around here are in the cup or bust group... If your expectations are the cup and anything less will get you mad and disappointed then it's not me who should raise my standards, it's probably you who should relax a bit...

And to be honest, at what moment exactly since Bergevin took over your expectations where we are a true contender?

My expectations aren't to win or bust, simply to make moves towards the goal of winning the cup. Because it's been a while that the legendary Canadiens de Montréal were taken seriously. I want the success of the past to reflect on the present too


That's my fate as a Habs fan. Since I'm born I listened to my grand-parents/parents/uncles/etc. tell me of les Glorieux. I'm really happy for them, but let's face it : they were spoiled.
You have to undestand why 30 years old and under fans may be starting to get bitter. Picture this :

Two years ago I went to game against Washington at the Bell Centre with my grandpa. I don't remember the date but it was freezing outside. We arrive a bit early but it's all good since I get to chat with the old dude. At his age you know you've got to cherish these moments (even though the guy is in ridiculous health and just tried his first parachute jump this fall at 88 years of age lol). So we get to talk about various things and obviously I'm very interested in his knowledge and memories of the Habs. He came from a small town to study in the late 1940s so he went to see the Canadiens pretty often with his college buddies and eventually with his coworkers, wife, kids, etc. So he saw a LOT of championship teams and most of the greats. He told me some anecdotes and trivia about the Richard days and we had a really great time.
Except for the game itself, of course. I was all hyped up from the discussion but it was a loss (obviously), a really ordinary 4-1 showing against the high-flying Ovi, Backstrom and the bunch. Not atrocious by any means loss happens but we all know how it is with this team. Poor execution, boring puck management. Ironically it was the game when Ovechkin tied Richard for total goals... A few times during the 3rd period I catched my gramps from the corner of my eye anxiously clenching his fist and looking at the clock but it was too little to late lol. Still I didnt care because the Caps are fun to watch and it was great spending time with my grandpa. But let's just say the spectacle was far from the Punch line of his days lmao. And it's like this most games of the season, year after year.

Tl;dr : I want to my favorite team to be great and bad-ass and feared because I can't fall back on memories I dont possess. So that's why I think standards should be higher and patience lower. If the guys in place did more bad than good in 7 years it's time to take a closer look at the main actors. Timmins, MB, Julien. They bought time with the last off-season but if we miss the playoffs doubts will rise again.

 

[No fan fiction]

oh I see, you assume he did.

I get it. The idea that an NHL executive would do the bare minimum is not alright on here, but assuming he didn't is a proven fact?

And people wonder why I refer to so many postings, especially about borderline 4th liners like DLR, as fan fiction.

 

[Whitesnake]

Can you read? I mean seriously. Can. You. Read? 21 draft picks is not a theory. You want me to list them for you or can you read it yourself at Hockeydb.com: 21 picks.

Re DLR. The point you and others keep trying to make is the DLR was let go b/c of bad asset management, like Bergevin a) didn't try to trade him or b) that Bergevin hadn't lined up alternatives (by my count, there are at least 4, from Peca & Chaput to Froese and ultimately Vejdemo) or c) my favourite, the one that I hope you put flowers over the "i" every time for: that Bergevin should have traded him at the ultimate moment of ripeness, like the rare, ice-wine grape that JACOB 4TH LINER FOR DETROIT DE LA ROSE is.

That last, the key to your whole theory, is the stuff of fan fiction. Write for Marvel.

Finally, yes, it's a results-oriented business. Team is competitive. Makes money. Entertains.

Can you read too? The whole Bergevin did everything he could to trade the players....can you believe Bergevin is so stupid that he didn't do everything in his power to make the best trade possible and.....TIMMINS SUCKS....while forgetting that this great Bergevin you keep talking about is NOT the one who frekain have the choice between keeping or firing Timmins!!! Hello????? Can't you read part 2......yes, 21 picks! 14 of them either went through Lefebvre's hands or were seriously ill. Can you read that? And then, to keep singling out 3 drafts is just marvelous. So to excuse Lefebvre, those 3 drafts that still make Lefebvre coached 11 of them, those 3 drafts are the sole and only reason why Lefebvre didn't so well. Notwithstanding the drafts before. Notwithstanding the help he got with the vets. Notwithstanding that a lot of teams have done BETTER with just about the same kind of lineup. Including this whole myth that poor Lefebvre had to deal with 50 players WHEN MOST AHL TEAMS HAVE DO TO WORK WITH THE EXACT SAME THING. Who can't read really?

Wow, so the results is to make money. No shit....do you know that a team makes more money when they make the playoffs and go far? lol

And you go to the ultimate best statement of all time with this that Bergevin should have traded him at the ultimate moment of ripeness, like the rare, ice-wine grape that JACOB 4TH LINER FOR DETROIT DE LA ROSE is. 'cause CLEARLY 2 years AGO.....when he didn't lose all the value that he lost today, that we KNEW that 2 years after, he'd become a 4th liner for Detroit...lollll.

I really have no idea what you are doing. Are you protecting Bergevin? If so....do you not realize that Bergevin is the one that keeps using Timmins who destroyed the prospect pool? And if Bergevin is too stupid to realize that, can he be too stupid to do other things?

Oh and finally, explain to me why my last paragraph is Marvel's please? I know that your fun right now is to attribute statements to posters, but instead of just staying at the surface...how is my last paragraph fan fiction. I'm waiting. 'Cause your the one fan fictioning. Your the one counting on the number of picks, and telling us that none succeeded hence it's just Timmins fault. That's the ultimate fan fiction. No words on context. No words on development. No words on quality of the drafts. No words on what other teams have done during that time.

So I'll fan fiction just as much as you did okay? I'll use the same type of argument. Ready? So Timmins sucks 'cause out of 21 picks, only 6 are in the NHL right now. Fine. My turn.....Lefebvre's sucks 'cause out of 6 years coaching, he had 1 round of playoffs. Period. It's so much simpler that way. You were right all along. How you can know if the success of a prospect is solely the head scout or the development team is just incredible.....but I guess you can suffer from fan fiction too.

 

[Whitesnake]

I get it. The idea that an NHL executive would do the bare minimum is not alright on here, but assuming he didn't is a proven fact?

And people wonder why I refer to so many postings, especially about borderline 4th liners like DLR, as fan fiction.

We don't assume he didn't. We realize he didn't 'cause it does not happen. A GM isn't paid by the number of tries he does but the success he has IN REALITY. Not in your type of fan fiction.