Trevor Timmins Discussion Part III

[Whitesnake]

3 things really quick: a) defenceman; b) in season not start of season, post-training camp when there are always extra players; c) your conclusion has become your assumption. The last is is the worst.

Do you really think that MB--forget that, any GM in the NHL who loses a player via waivers or free agency--never once attempted to package that player in some kind of trade? Really? That is what you and Montreal are writing implicitly every single time and that is pure fan fiction, pure fan wish fulfillment, pure fan confirmation bias.

Last, I never said a thing about Lefebvre's player turn over. What I did say is that in 3 drafts, totalling 21 draft choices, Timmins failed to restock so much as an ECHL team let alone a viable prospect pool in the AHL.

So I shouldn't think that MB mismanaged his assets and yet you have no problem bashing Timmins as if he's the worst ever. Which brings that question....do you really think that Bergevin forget that Timmins is his head scout and if he'd be that terrible he'd fire him? How is it that we shouldn't question Bergevin but you can? How come our questions are fan fictions and yours aren't? I have no idea why you keep bringing these 3 drafts and 21 draft choices. Lefebvre still put his hands on 11 of them. BUt somehow, your fan fiction has already determined that them sucking solely means it's all on Timmins.

What you do say is that Timmins failed to restock a prospect pool. And while I'm now in favour of letting him go, I say that this is your way of fan fictioning. Development is just so much more complicated than that.

And by the way, if you think that teams have more patience for d-men...fine....as if centermen are easy to find.

I have no idea why you keep fighting this. This is what separates a Great GM to a guy that will be fired tomorrow. Vision. Falling in love with players too much. Not anticipating things. And the proof that it's not fan fiction, is that in pro reality, it happens! Fan fiction would most definately be to trade a guy like Taylor Hall for Adam Larsson. As if that could really happen right? Anybody suggesting that would be the king of fiction and yet....it happened. With everything that is happening...I really have on idea how you can still go on with your fan fiction theory. The Chaput that was not good enough to start the year here was not that long ago traded for another player. That's still more than what we got for DLR. Why did Chaput had more credentials than DLR? For me, as ordinairy I could think DLR is.....he's still a 23 year old centerman that has only seen 1 pro team in the NHL. There are plenty of teams that won't have a problem using a draft pick to see if he can get back on track.....or just to see if there was a track to begin with. Not fan fiction. It happens all the time.

 

[yianik]

Tinordi was a safe pick imo at the time. I also think it's a safe bet he would have had a long NHL career if the game hadn't changed so much.

I definitely agree that McCarron was a high risk pick. imo he was a reach to try to address a need - at the time we were too small and getting pushed around.

In the world of finance , Canadians were very conservative investors, wanting safe and secure investments. The set off was giving up return. Turns out what Canadians were doing was dangerous as hell because they were almost guaranteeing themselves of out living their investments and ending up in poverty. The so called riskier investments were needed to provide the growth to keep the money rolling in.

I see an analogy.

Habs often selected so called safe picks. Guys without the high upside, but solid 2 way guys who would play a strong defensive game, work hard, put up some points and be a coaches dream. The set off was talent and that upside. Turns out this still ended up with lots of busts and without getting guys with great upside except now and then.

Better off going for the high end talent and ceiling , and just use mid to late picks to pick up lunch pail guys where needed.

Edit: I mean trade picks for such players, not use picks to draft them

 

[No fan fiction]

Numbers don't lie. You are mistaking opinion with fact.

What? I mean, really. What?

 

[No fan fiction]

So I shouldn't think that MB mismanaged his assets and yet you have no problem bashing Timmins as if he's the worst ever. Which brings that question....do you really think that Bergevin forget that Timmins is his head scout and if he'd be that terrible he'd fire him? How is it that we shouldn't question Bergevin but you can? How come our questions are fan fictions and yours aren't? I have no idea why you keep bringing these 3 drafts and 21 draft choices. Lefebvre still put his hands on 11 of them. BUt somehow, your fan fiction has already determined that them sucking solely means it's all on Timmins.

What you do say is that Timmins failed to restock a prospect pool. And while I'm now in favour of letting him go, I say that this is your way of fan fictioning. Development is just so much more complicated than that.

And by the way, if you think that teams have more patience for d-men...fine....as if centermen are easy to find.

I have no idea why you keep fighting this. This is what separates a Great GM to a guy that will be fired tomorrow. Vision. Falling in love with players too much. Not anticipating things. And the proof that it's not fan fiction, is that in pro reality, it happens! Fan fiction would most definately be to trade a guy like Taylor Hall for Adam Larsson. As if that could really happen right? Anybody suggesting that would be the king of fiction and yet....it happened. With everything that is happening...I really have on idea how you can still go on with your fan fiction theory. The Chaput that was not good enough to start the year here was not that long ago traded for another player. That's still more than what we got for DLR. Why did Chaput had more credentials than DLR? For me, as ordinairy I could think DLR is.....he's still a 23 year old centerman that has only seen 1 pro team in the NHL. There are plenty of teams that won't have a problem using a draft pick to see if he can get back on track.....or just to see if there was a track to begin with. Not fan fiction. It happens all the time.

That was almost conciliatory. But still, answer the question: does anybody really think that a GM--any GM--would not have tried to get something for DLR? Just answer that.

 

[Vachon23]

That was almost conciliatory. But still, answer the question: does anybody really think that a GM--any GM--would not have tried to get something for DLR? Just answer that.

It's 100 % sure that MB tried to get something for Sherback and DLR ! What I find funny is that we make a drama that MB lost Sherback and DLR but there's alote of ex 1st round pick on the waivers each year. It's nothing special there

 

[ECWHSWI]

It's 100 % sure that MB tried to get something for Sherback and DLR ! What I find funny is that we make a drama that MB lost Sherback and DLR but there's alote of ex 1st round pick on the waivers each year. It's nothing special there

he did ?

when ?
where ?
how ?

 

[Vachon23]

he did ?

when ?
where ?
how ?

Before trading them

 

[ECWHSWI]

Before trading them

oh I see, you assume he did.

 

[Vachon23]

oh I see, you assume he did.

Don't take a genius to know that

 

[Kriss E]

Don't take a genius to know that

I think posters think every move a GM takes is well thought out with its due dilligence done, but too often do we hear how some GMs were surprised about a player getting moved or didn't know they were available.
I mean, I get your point. It's just simple logic that one would try to shop his asset before throwing it away.
One thing I've learned though is to stop assuming these GMs are all sound logical people.
Gainey had a strict no contract negotiations during the season, which...was completely illogical and stupid. Like..why? Why would you refuse to negotiate and pointlessly risk losing assets to free agency like he did.

Different level. I know.

Did Bergevin tell people DLR was available? Maybe..did he just send out an email throwing his name? I suspect that would yield close to no interest. Did he actually try to put a package together including him that could get us an interesting return? I'm not sure.
I don't fault him on not getting anything for DLR at that point. I blame this organization for failing to develop what seemed to be a borderline NHL ready shutdown center a year after his draft. I'm not sure how they couldn't develop this kid into a steady 4th line center.

 

[ECWHSWI]

Don't take a genius to know that

don't try to pass your opinion as fact, come on now...

 

[Le Barron de HF]

don't try to pass your opinion as fact, come on now...

Well I mean, it's an assumption on our part but I doubt MB is this incompetent or reckless in terms of asset management (although he already is in my book by going the waivers route). As pointed out by @Kriss E, how much he shopped him is another subject.

 

[Whitesnake]

That was almost conciliatory. But still, answer the question: does anybody really think that a GM--any GM--would not have tried to get something for DLR? Just answer that.

Yes he tried. You don't keep a GM for trying. You keep a GM for doing. Everybody tries. You think that every coach and GM that were fired didn't try something? You are on Timmins back....you think Timmins didn't do everything he could to get the best players possible? I have no idea where you are going for this. So we should be fine with whatever Bergevin does 'cause he has to have tried something.....but you bash Timmins because you think he hasn't tried enough?

When you keep repeating your 21 picks theory....isn't the conclusion you come to about what the end result is? And if so, how come you judge Timmins with actual results while you judge Bergevin with what his intentions where? Why the double standards? ESPECIALLY when everybody and their mother knows that the drafting game is MUCH MORE difficult than the GM game because scouting is based on what a player SHOULD be vs GM'ing is based on what players ARE?

 

[Whitesnake]

Don't take a genius to know that

This is what strikes me everytime when I read Bergevin's defense team. Yeah, he surely tried something. Every freakin GM does. From the worst to the good ones. But now in Montreal, we lower our expectations so much that we will give an extension to a guy who tries. But then....maybe you don't need a genius....but do you know how he tried? Did he just e-mailed everybody saying that DLR was available? Did he called everybody? Did he proposed a 1 on 1 trade for a AHL filler? Did he already assumed that nobody wanted him? Did he proposed to include him in a larger deal? WE have no idea.

So let's stop assumptions, and let's go with facts...we got NOTHING for him. Now....was he worth something? Yeah, his value drop at a huge rate for sure.....but why? 'Cause he was not a good pick from the get go? Possibly. Yet, in his post draft season, he had a good season in Sweden's best league. And played in the NHL the year after. Did he has a good value then? Of course he does. But then....surely was not to be traded 'cause we thought he could help us and not be implicated in a deal. BUt then in 15-16...ordinairy stint in the AHL....bad one with Habs....the year afte in 16-17...nothing earth shattering in the farm team.....shouldn't you start to consider to move him? Did he already lost ALL that value?

Or, and it's no fan fiction, this organization has poor vision so they usually decide to live and die with their prospects even though if in the end it means losing them for nothing or worst....acquiring John Scott in return. This is poor asset management. No matter how you see it. And that's a fact. Somehow, Bergevin did better with Beaulieu by getting a 3rd rounder. That's a proof that it's possible to do it.

 

[Vachon23]

This is what strikes me everytime when I read Bergevin's defense team. Yeah, he surely tried something. Every freakin GM does. From the worst to the good ones. But now in Montreal, we lower our expectations so much that we will give an extension to a guy who tries. But then....maybe you don't need a genius....but do you know how he tried? Did he just e-mailed everybody saying that DLR was available? Did he called everybody? Did he proposed a 1 on 1 trade for a AHL filler? Did he already assumed that nobody wanted him? Did he proposed to include him in a larger deal? WE have no idea.

So let's stop assumptions, and let's go with facts...we got NOTHING for him. Now....was he worth something? Yeah, his value drop at a huge rate for sure.....but why? 'Cause he was not a good pick from the get go? Possibly. Yet, in his post draft season, he had a good season in Sweden's best league. And played in the NHL the year after. Did he has a good value then? Of course he does. But then....surely was not to be traded 'cause we thought he could help us and not be implicated in a deal. BUt then in 15-16...ordinairy stint in the AHL....bad one with Habs....the year afte in 16-17...nothing earth shattering in the farm team.....shouldn't you start to consider to move him? Did he already lost ALL that value?

Or, and it's no fan fiction, this organization has poor vision so they usually decide to live and die with their prospects even though if in the end it means losing them for nothing or worst....acquiring John Scott in return. This is poor asset management. No matter how you see it. And that's a fact. Somehow, Bergevin did better with Beaulieu by getting a 3rd rounder. That's a proof that it's possible to do it.

Aaa conspiracy

 

[groovejuice]

These guys weren't safe picks...They were high risk, high reward.

The risk was higher then the potential reward I think. Especially for a team with an anti-development philosophy.

 

[Belial]

The risk was higher then the potential reward I think. Especially for a team with an anti-development philosophy.

An anti-development philosophy? This must be one of your best takes...

 

[groovejuice]

An anti-development philosophy? This must be one of your best takes...

I'd give you a quote from Lefebvre, but you'd just call me a liar again. You're absolutely not worth my effort.

 

[Belial]

I'd give you a quote from Lefebvre, but you'd just call me a liar again. You're absolutely not worth my effort.

Yeah, another misinterpreted and twisted quote that became a real thing around here. Nothing new.Same old.

 

[groovejuice]

Yeah, another misinterpreted and twisted quote that became a real thing around here. Nothing new.Same old.

If Idi Amin worked for the Habs, you'd call his cannibalism a "dietary option".

 

[Belial]

If Idi Amin worked for the Habs, you'd call his cannibalism a "dietary option".

It's not me who's always trying to misinterpret facts and trying to come up with some hardly believable and highly illogical theories of conspiration though...

 

[Andrei79]

I find it interesting how much emphasis Winnipeg puts on development.

Those bozos must've read too much fan faction. It's funny because they're so stupid they don't even realize the results they get is just 100% confirmation bias.

 

[groovejuice]

It's not me who's always trying to misinterpret facts and trying to come up with some hardly believable and highly illogical theories of conspiration though...

How the **** can one misinterpret "I don't believe in development. It's not my job"?

On the other hand, I am sincerely sorry for your inability to debate anything in good faith.

 

[Belial]

Scheifele 7th overall
Trouba 9th overall
Morrissey 13th overall
Ehlers 9th overall
Connor 17th overall
Laine second overall

Yeah, it's all about that miracle development! It has nothing to do with sucking for years and picking high year after year...

 

[Andrei79]

Scheifele 7th overall
Trouba 9th overall
Morrissey 13th overall
Ehlers 9th overall
Connor 17th overall
Laine second overall

Yeah, it's all about that miracle development! It has nothing to do with sucking for years and picking high year after year...

Right. Because every team that picks high has had such a good haul on top of success with later picks.

The Jets should just drop their philosophy. They've yet to understand their result is just confirmation bias.