Discussion in 'Montreal Canadiens' started by yianik, Jul 15, 2018.
You should recycle as a pastor
People who are often wrong are often people who have opinions. And then there are people who always right which are the ones who wait to see what opinion you have to then bash it if you were wrong about it.....People like you is why a board exist. Not the other ones.....
Imagine being wrong about every prospect Timmins as drafted and still holding a grudge against timmins after 5 or so years
So what you have done is highlight the draft is a crap shoot of varying degree. Because that is what it is, even when you pick the right kind of prospect.
Typically it is the draft pool itself, as a whole, that comes through even as individual players do not. I see people trading Poehling, Suzuki etc. NOOOO. We have a promising top 6 C pool now among Kotkaniemi, Poehling, Suzuki and Oloffson, but we cannot rely that anyone specifically will be a top 6 player, though Kotka is the likeliest.
What am I babbling about right type of player ? Guys who lack talent for one, like Tinordi and Big Mac, who cant skate, like Eric Chouinard, Terry Ryan etc.
So when we draft guys like Scherbak, the right kind, we will have busts, but hopefully along the way we also hit on a Tarasenko or Kuznetsov. Go with Tinordi, Big Mac, Chipchura picks and if you hit you will have a great 3rd liner or a wonderful no.5 D man.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaah. As long as it's always Lefebvre's fault that he had nothing to work with. It takes at least 5 yrs to rebuild a farm system. When Sly got there, the cupboard was bare. There was a reason they had the 3rd pick.
Every pick you cited--Beaulieu, Tinordi, Leblanc, etc.--was not MB's. Therefore, they were never--NEVER--going to be a priority. A GM lives on his own picks (or dies) and, yes, MB had his 5 yrs and pinned in on MT, JJ, & Sly. Somehow Timmins got a pass. Those aren't opinions, guy, those are facts.
Yes, and that guy's name is Trevor Timmins.
Yep. Those were all someone's fanboy crush that we were going to miss horribly, that never got a chance b/c of Lefebvre, MT, et al, that were going to come back and haunt us.
They were also the fruits of Trevor Timmins and his scouting acumen.
It was a trade of minor leaguers that rated the "that's a terrible trade" and "bad asset management" whines. It was a trade of minor leaguers and MB was moving someobody else's choice for one of his own. Thomas played in the NHL. Kristo still hasn't. Not a terrible trade at all. Plus, I don't really care about Laval/Hamilton/St. John's/Frederiction/Sherbrooke or wherever. I care about MTL. Alone.
When Lefebvre was hired he had zero to work with. It takes 5 years to rebuild system depth b/c every GM is going to restock and rebuild with his own choices. Thus, Sly, in theory, had one year with what should have been system depth.
better yet, imagine being wrong about every prospect timmins drafted and "having an opinion" that it was always lefebvre's fault.
that would get you mod/legend status here.
it's true. there'd be several thousand fewer messages micro-analyzing the "asset management" and "deployment" of career minor leaguers.
Why am I not a mod yet ?
Or are you implying I'm a legend, then ?
@montreal has a stalker and it's kind of creepy.
So easy to say who will be a career minor leaguer once all is said and done.
Pretty sure I just showed you evidence I called Kristo at the time. I also am calling DLR right now. I also said that I wasn't worried about losing Pateryn, Tinordi and a host of others. I also called Hudon a slightly better Duncan Milroy. I'll stand by those.
But, hey, most of this site is fan fiction by a small cadre of users.
Watched Sly coach in Hamilton f0r years. Completely dead from the neck up . Might be the dumbest man to ever coach a pro team.
You're wrong about Lefebvre. I heard many interviews with him over the years and he was making more sense than Julien and Therrien put together.
Well I don't know about evidence. First post I see from you about Kristo goes back to 2015. While I mentioned him in 2008. So yes, 7 years after being drafted, we surely had a great indication that he was not going to be the good player he looked he could be from the NCAA. By the way, what's your opinin of Jake Evans right now? Just asking for future reference.....
Anyway, fine if you have opinions. We all will be right or wrong at a certain point. Whether it's for important or less important players. Idea here is that no matter what you, I or whoever think about the importance of certain players.....it's not always only about losing a potential superstar that will never be it. But what we did to improve him. And what we did by trading them before they clearly becomes untradeable.
I find urinating on the ground usually does the job, but some people find that uncouth.
I'm not Juliens biggest fan, but he's had a brilliant career at all levels. Your posts not fair to the man.
So, by the time Kristo was sent packing there should never have been any "it's a terrible trade" talk at all.
If Jake Evans were going to be a top 6 NHL centre he wouldn't have spent 4 yrs in college. His career prospects in the NHL require that he do other things, like kill penalties. Foot speed isn't there.
Better question: whom does he displace?
I hate to say it, but I'll be right about Hudon. He's a classic 4A player, I'm afraid.
Full disclosure: I went to a lot of AHL games at Copps Coliseum, from about 1998-2013, and sat among the scouts (they sat in the corners, near, 118 & 126 b/c that's where the offices were and the view over the tunnel is unobstructed & you can watch the defence [hint: they'd move ends & usually spent a lot more time watching the defence]; Gainey sat in the latter, with his little Andy Cap hat and brown leather bomber jacket that had a pen & a tiny notepad in it, as opposed to Timmins who walked around in a shiny suit looking angry but always sat in the pressbox above 118; families usually sat in 118, although officials' families sat in 126 a lot). I was in 118 for the famous game 7 when Boucher let them blow it in the 3rd period and Subban was on for every. single. goal.
Hamilton was a perfect place b/c it's close to YYZ and the place was empty. Even for that game, there was hardly ever anybody there and, yes, I would listen to anything any of them would say and I'd watch them more than I'd watch the game, to see what they did, when and how they were making notes, if they were sitting bolt upright. Figuring out which player they were watching (it's usually only 3-4 per team). Not saying I got any scoops--never--but an awful lot of scouts have their jobs because they are decent, amiable lifetime hockey people who like to talk about hockey. And they all seem to drink a lot of coffee. Maybe talk to one, just one.
That's why my problem is the level of omnipotent narrator fan fiction that sometimes makes this place unreadable and unbearable: DLR could have gotten something in return; Domi could have been acquired without losing Galchenyuk, Trevor Timmins only ever drafts top 6 players with superstar upside but the dev team lets us down. I mean, it was made public that Bergevin shopped Scherbak to every single team in the league and nobody would send anything, but there's still someone posting about "Scherbak and a 7th would have gotten a 5th rounder . . ."
Those aren't opinions. That's fan fiction. But, you can't have fan boys without fan fiction.
Fun stuff to read. As far as I,m concerned, I had the luxury to sit with Timmins quite often when the Habs were holding their development camp at the Martin Lapointe arena. Was quite vocal back in the days.....So I talked to that one...just that one. And I'm friends, internet friends, with a guy working for Hockey prospect. Not because he's not part of a NHL team that he's not a good scout. As scouts working for NHL teams are not only guys that love coffee and love to talk hockey, but friends of management...that also greatly helped. Ex-players too....somehow, playing the game has to mean that you are great at recognizing NHl qualities. Maybe for some it does, but clealry not for everybody. Can't wait to see what Serge Boisvert and Donald Audette are doing for us.
As far as what could have happened....well yeah, that's usually pretty free stuff that are being thrown out. Yet...I know that when I do it, it has nothing to do with what it could have fetch when we do it, but rather when we could have traded him for. We take our prospects and we make sure they have close to not value. It's impossible that a 6'4 C that skates well and was picked in the 2nd round was a waiver guy. Look at the waivers and tell me it's normal. Which means that what happened is THEY, not us, THEY made a mistake in evaluation...thinking he was ALL that....to the point of no return where EVERYBODY knew he wasn't. You DO NOT wait on the waiver year before you make a decision whether a guy is good or not. You don't. You need to know it before. A McCarron could have fetch something 2 or 3 years ago. Sorry, that's on management. And yes, as yo know already, it's on the scouting too.....big time.
But for me, both have responsabilities....one to have picked a bad player....the other for keeping him as long as he really had no value. Yep, the fan fiction is ''Well we could have had more for him!!!!''. But he should not have fell in love with his players and should have been able to evaluate him better'' that's an opinion and that's a fact. You still have on your team a guy that has to go through waivers, it's either because the guy is ready to play in the NHL and won't need waivers 'cause he's good enough to stick around or....you made a mistake in evaluation. NOt talking about the Chaput or the Kulak of this world here....but the prospects that you've picked, and had first hand info on him.
I have no idea why management couldn't be stupid. They are fired all the time. Some teams are doing so poorly for so long. In Montreal, if you find Timmins bad....well there's a GM that keeps using him.
So for you some points might be fan fiction. But when it comes to that, maybe it's because the GM reality is just bad. And somehow, we need to do better. Like some teams are doing.
I'm sure some of us could drop more names and references. I could. But you know what, all that said, there's still going to be Mathieu Descoteaux or Michael Lambert. Take apart their games and each piece of it should have been an NHL player with upside. But as a whole, neither of them could ever put it together for a sustained period of time, if at all. That wasn't necessarily on management, or scouts, or development. Red Fisher always said, "Show me the players."
As for being "stupid," that's not the same as not projecting a curve very accurately. Scotty Bowman was shown a door in Buffalo (Shawn Anderson?). They're all hired to be fired. That is the only truism. I don't think they "fall in love," but if it comes to your pick vs one from the previous regime (hi, Nathan Beaulieu, PK Subban, etc), you are going to go with yours every time. That's also true, every time.
I'll throw my two cents about Evans, if you don't mind. I honestly believe that this kid will become an excellent, two-way, 4th line C with the upside to replace as a 3rd line C in case of injury. Evans can become more than just an energy player at the NHL level.
The '13 and '14 drafts still very much up in the air for Timmins. Lehkonen is on pace for 45 pts after having 49 pts in his NHL career coming into the season. Still hard to say what he will be, I like him more then most but not sure if he's a 30-40 pt guy or a 40-50 pt guy.
DLR seems to be doing well with the wings, has 2 pts in the last 5 games and playing over 12 minutes a night. After a season low of 8:07 TOI, he's gone up every night since 9:36,(vs Bos) then 10:53 (Col), then 16:39 (TB) and last night 16:58 (Tor)
I was saying the past 2 years that I thought he might turn into a decent 4th liner, he's on pace for 20 pts although I would be happy with 10-12. Good size, skating, speed, defensive game with the ability to chip in some offense here and there. At 23 he's still young when you consider his development was yo-yoed back and forth perhaps he can put it together.
I said the same about McCarron although a lot less likely as he would have been better off being drafted in the '90's. But if he keeps working on getting quicker, he brings that physical element along with his size that some team may be interested in next year or the following.
It's a real shame what happened with Reway, much like Nygren I badly wanted to see what they could do in the NHL but health and injury woes derailed that one.
don't agree there, I've met Julien and would gladly listen to him or Therrien talk hockey over Lefebvre who made my ears bleed when he tried to talk hockey. Guy Boucher was always my favorite to listen to though.
It's possible, I've looked at him as a guy that if he makes the NHL it would be a 3rd or possible 4th line center but he'll have to get quicker. He's very smart, great on draws, and plays a solid two way game so there's a lot to like and so far he's done well in his pro debut despite being out all summer with the injury and then getting a concussion at the rookie tourny.
As I often say it myself....a player not panning out is often just not panning.....because. No fault to anybody. So that's why you don't judge a scout looking at 1 guy.....or another. But in his body of work. But what people do with body of work is to look back at 11 years ago. It makes no sense in today's NHL. And it makes even less sense when you are supposed to build through draft....
Well not everytime. Especially not with Bergevin. Out of 32 picks under his belt from 12-16, only 10 guys are still with the team. Out of those 10....it's not that he didn't want to give McCarron free either. And somehow, trading Subban is not a sign of not caring about players picked before him 'cause if so...what do you call Sergachev?
Reway was a good pick. You do take risks on talented players, no problem with that. But people love to excuse Timmins and unfortunately use Reway illness to explain that if not for that...he would have made it. There's just nothing that suggest that to be honest. Especially not with Julien in charge. If people thought Scherbak was not a fit for Julien....not sure what they would call Reway.....
10/32 isn't bad. It's the years of 1st round failure. That hasn't changed no matter what.
Sergachev is a case of having to give up quality to get quality. We can drool over Sergachev but he was still unproven. It may be one that has people scatching heads for a long. Hall went for, um, some guy. Wait, they're telling me it was Lars(s)on...We definitely needed scoring. What Bergevin didn't foresee was losing 3 other defensemen. That is clear.
Nobody on our current defense comes from our organization. Juulsen when he comes back is the only one. Gallagher the only guy in top 6. We have a few in the bottom 6.
In a time where your success is highly dependent on your own draft picks, we are not building our team properly imo.
Also, the fact most prospects don't pan out, to me, shows how incredibly stupid the draft system is.
Scouts get praised when they can find a Gallagher in the 5th round but no objective person will attribute this to savviness. It's pure luck. Like picking Datsyuk 171st...not a single person would pick this guy that late if they thought he would become as dominant as he has.
So we praise the scouts on how lucky they get...
Timmins knocked one out the park in 07...but then...meh. Savviness? Nope. More like average with one incredibly lucky year.
There is a whole lot Bergevin didn't foresee. He's a moron. That is clear.
With Mete down to the AHL and Scherbak moved on, there are only 6 players on the Habs roster who were actually drafted by the Habs left (Price, Gallagher, Lekhonen, Hudon, Juulsen and Kotkaniemi).
Separate names with a comma.