Trevor Timmins Discussion Part III

Discussion in 'Montreal Canadiens' started by yianik, Jul 15, 2018.

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  1. cphabs

    cphabs It complels you!

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    Are you suggesting that Lefbreve was “ building” something in Laval? His sole purpose in the organization was to develop the talent he was given. How about this example. Instead of telling kids that they will be nothing more than a 3rd liner? Tell them that if they work on areas of weakness they can achieve some pretty special results in the NHL. LMFAO I can’t believe you’re defending Lefbreve.
     
  2. montreal

    montreal Go Habs Go

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    it's hard to know what's in someones heart but Leblanc was seen as a mid 1st rounder and had the resume to go with it. Rookie of the year in the USHL at 17, Ivy League rookie of the year, led his team in the NCAA in scoring at 18, played well for Team Canada.

    I never get how people say there wasn't an issue with Leblanc's development, I mean I blame Leblanc, Timmins, Lefebvre, MT, but we are talking about a kid that at 20 in the AHL played so well that he was easily one of their best players and then the next year under Lefebvre in his first year ever as a head coach and what's he do, he takes Leblanc off the top line and PP and replaces him with no talent grinders.

    Just screams what a terrible way to develop talent, a talent that had clearly been find producing and playing well under a different coach the year before. I just can't understand how many times I've heard this about Leblanc and I say to myself how does someone look at Leblanc at 20 and see how well he played and then see how crappy he played for Lefebvre and NOT think wow what went wrong there cause he was doing fine under one coach and then looks night and day under a coach that had NEVER been a head coach before. I just don't get it, I watched him under both coaches in Hamilton and it was night and day.

    As for Scherbak, he was dominating last year in Laval on the worst team in the league but injuries and call ups kept him at less then half a season. He was on pace for 87 pts in 76 games which would have been outstanding and very much dominating if he could have kept up that pace which I'm not sure he could have since that team sucked.
     
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  3. Whitesnake

    Whitesnake Dracarys or Décalisse

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    I'm not defending Lefebvre. I'm telling the ones who uses his departure to TOTALLY exclude Timmins as a weak link. If you would have followed the story, you would have read how I find Lefebvre terrible. I,m the one who has been asking for his departure 3 years ago and was seen as sooooo negative because of it. Lefebvre was not a good teacher. I do not believe that Lefebvre was able to take an average guy and makes him great. But Lefebvre did NOT have the power to take a supposed great pick in Tinordi and makes him awful. There's a freakin limit to what a guy can do.
     
  4. cphabs

    cphabs It complels you!

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    Telling them they won’t suck would be a starter...
     
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  5. Whitesnake

    Whitesnake Dracarys or Décalisse

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    Well those were rumors that were never proven. And if it is proven, well you are still talking to men that surely heard worst in their lifetime. And that somehow, if they make it, will hear it playing in the NHL.
     
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  6. Chris Nilan

    Chris Nilan Registered User

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    You and I very specifically had the Leblanc/Lefebvre debate years ago and you needed another mod to step in b/c you couldn't handle the facts and went over the top. Want to revisit? You claim that everyone is to blame, but then pin all of it on Lefebvre. While Sly might not have had "success" (however that is defined for an AHL coach seems to vary greatly around here and Hudon stands out as one and Scherbak's 87 pt pace would 2nd that) he didn't make the decision to goto Harvard and then switch and then go pro and then . . . Also, Leblanc made a stupid decision to fight Jesse Blacker and really did damage to his ankle in that fight and lost almost a whole season of development at a crucial time. Then, what did Leblanc do after he went to another team? What did your boy Danny Kristo do? Conversely for all the DLR lovers around here, his mistake was probably not going to the Windsor Spitfires to play in a better league.

    You are right that Leblanc was drafted more or less at his spot. The player drafted on last name was Tinordi. McCarron was drafted on body shape. This all points not to a failure to develop--no coach can develop talent; it's a fan-centric confirmation bias laden fallacy that you can turn a good player into a great player--but rather a failure to project. That's on scouts, guy.
     
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  7. WhiskeySeven*

    WhiskeySeven* Expect the expected

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    So Lefebvre's lack of success is under doubt because one waiver wire player had a high PPG for a portion of a season in the AHL?
     
  8. montreal

    montreal Go Habs Go

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    no, 6 years of poor results. MB hired a guy with zero experience as a head coach, Timmins had a good track record up until Lefebvre/MB era. So while I have said over and over and over that it's not just on one person/area, that our problems stem from several things, starting with poor asset management, terrible development, management's obsession with rushing 18,19, 20 year olds to the NHL when they haven't dominated their previous league outside of Hudon who is the only one they seemed to keep in the AHL.

    Then there's the coaching with MT/Julien not putting the youth in positions to succeed outside of Kotka, benching them for every little mistake, putting them in the pressbox, then sending them back down to start all over after just starting to put a string together of good games/production at the AHL.

    And clearly the scouting has made it's fair share of mistakes. All scouts do, and Timmins has admitted they drafted for need in '06 and '13 and got burned. You hope that they learned from there mistakes, clearly management doesn't seem to want to change but the scouting has to be better. That said if you tie one arm behind a scouts back, it makes it that much tougher, as there's a good reason why top 5, top 10, top 20, picks have much more success then guys picked in the 50's, 70's 90's etc..

    To me it starts with management, they need to change their position on rushing our top prospects to the NHL. The one good thing about a lockout next season is that they will be forced not to rush Brook, Poehling and Suzuki.

    Next is the coaching. I want to see Julien replaced by Ducharme. So far I like what i've seen/heard from Bouchard, seems a major upgrade on Lefebvre. We need the coaching to put these kids in positions to succeed. If you have a Scherbak, you either put with him snipers or you don't play him. If you have a Beaulieu you put him with someone that can cover his defensive mistakes. Etc... Won't always work but they have to stop benching kids for every little mistake. They also need to play them, give them the quality ice time while the team isn't a playoff contender to see what you have.

    The scouts need to be revamped, both sides need to do a better job, clearly we have people on both sides making good moves/picks but clearly on both sides we also have someone making bad moves/picks. Who pushed for Alzner, King, Martinsen, etc.. vs who pushed for Domi, Danault, etc.. Who pushed for DLR, McCarron, Tinordi, etc.. vs who pushed for Gallagher, Sergachev, Mete, etc...

    So far we got rid of one mistake in Lefebvre, but more work needs to be done. If they can get someone better then Timmins then so be it, but if we are just going to rush all our best guys to the NHL, have just 5 picks a draft and 1 top 90 pick or so then we aren't doing that scout any favors and shouldn't expect too much.
     
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  9. Andrei79

    Andrei79 Registered User

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    I'm the one who suggested the 60 points line and I think it's an excellent cutoff to see your scouting teams ability to draft offensive players.

    60 points has basically been the cutoff to be a top 50 scorer in the NHL.

    100 points => top 1
    90 points => top 3
    80 points => top 10
    70 points => top 20
    60 points => top 50
    50 points => top 100

    More or less. Each linear milestole is actually exponentially more difficult to attain and the 60 points plateau is one very few players actually get to in a given year (50-> or less than 8% of the league). Yet at the same time, unlike the top 20 or top 10 scorers, it's not as overwhelmingly filled with high picks, you have some mid late firsts to mid rounders there. It's a good barometer of how good you are at drafting skill (I took out top 3 picks except ours).

    And in any case, which line would not be arbitrary ?
     
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  10. Mrb1p

    Mrb1p PRICERSTOPDAPUCK

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    Why not just look at in in matters of rankings if that is what youre essentially looking at ?

    I also don't like that defnition because you're holding every one to the same standards for points. Kessel, Jokinen Filip Forbserg, Max Pacioretty, Jonathan Huberdeau, Taylor Hall and Patrice Bergeron all finished within 8 points of each other in 14-15. What does that statistic really tell us on the quality of the player drafted ?

    The case of Gallagher, too, that I've already addressed is a common problem with arbitrary lines set in the sand for points.
     
  11. Andrei79

    Andrei79 Registered User

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    That they're all excellent ?
     
  12. Mrb1p

    Mrb1p PRICERSTOPDAPUCK

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    You'd put the label "excellent" on Huberdeau ?

    And you wouldn't put that label on Gallagher ?
     
  13. Andrei79

    Andrei79 Registered User

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    I would, yet Huberdeau would still be superior offensively... Which has been the point here.
     
  14. cphabs

    cphabs It complels you!

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    Seriously?
     
  15. Chris Nilan

    Chris Nilan Registered User

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    Who was rushed besides maybe DLR (who has already peaked)? You spent years moaning about every single last AHL fanboy crush of yours not getting "a fair chance" (Danny Kristo comes to mind. Where is he again? Changes monthly lately). Scherbak wasn't rushed. He just didn't do anything. Pateryn? You moaned. Tinordi? You moaned. Hudon? You moaned. A. Lot.

    According to this board (and a certain mod), Beaulieu was supposed to become a Norris candidate under Housley, not the healthy scratch he's been, Eller was a #2 centre, not the 25 pt giveaway machine he is irl, Jiri Sekac was the next coming of Marian Hossa, DLR is going to be the next Ryan Kesler, Andrighetto was the next Martin St. Louis, and Sergachev is the next Larry Robinson. Oh, and Danny Kristo was supposed to be the next Michael Ryder.

    How do you know the scout who said "Gallagher" was not the same scout who said "Matt Higgins"? How do you know the scout who said "Domi" didn't say "Alzner"? I'll bet it's "scouts" in the plural and the assistants and the GM.

    Eliminating Lefebvre only underscores the complete lack of system depth and the inability to project bodies and characters. That's on the scouts first. The development team needs grist for the mill, wheat and not chaff, etc. They need something to work with. Tom Pyatt and Chad Kilger were both 40+ scorers in junior and skate like the wind. How'd that go? Steve Ludzik finished ahead of Steve Larmer in OHL scoring . . .
     
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  16. Chris Nilan

    Chris Nilan Registered User

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    your boy JDR: 1 assist in his last 10. nice. "asset management" :shakehead
    your boy Andrighetto might as well be JDR. nice. "asset management" :shakehead
    your boy Danny Kristo: with his 2nd team this year, now in swiss a-league (whatever that is) and still hasn't played a game in the NHL. "asset management" :shakehead
    your boy Jiri Sekac isn't even the next Marian Hossa of the KHL and is on 0.80 pts/game pace in that league. "asset management" :shakehead
    your boy Will Bitten has 1 assist in 11 AHL games. "asset management" :shakehead

    while you have blamed sly for everything in the world except global warming, he can't be blamed for any of those "asset management" issues.
     
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  17. Whitesnake

    Whitesnake Dracarys or Décalisse

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    You have proofs? And if it's something that always happened to every prospect that hasn't made it, reason why they never made it in the first place, and that you know it, it means that Bergevin knows it right? So Bergevin, as stupid as he is supposed to be, decided to WILLINGLY keep a coach that DESTROYED the prospects Timmins chose? The Montreal Canadiens decided to keep and to make Timmins graduate so that the goal was to see Lefebvre destroy everything Timmins did?

    Are some of you ok? I'm worried.

    Poor Montreal.....being bashed for something he didn't say. I have your back Montreal. We all know Kristo was MY fanboy crush.....
     
    Last edited by moderator montreal: Dec 7, 2018
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  18. Scriptor

    Scriptor Registered User

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    I bite, but you can't seriously say that, if you stay true to strictly one mould to develop your players in, you aren't narrow-minded and deficient.


    Christo was and will always be the best player that suffered frost bite while trying to get laid as a teenager.
     
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  19. Chris Nilan

    Chris Nilan Registered User

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    23 may 2015 in St. John's Ice Caps thread. Among other things (there is more):

    He was still their 1st pick in the draft, so they must have thought highly of him to make him the first pick of the draft. And rightly so since he was one of the top scorers in the NCAA, was nominated for the Hobey Baker, has been among the top scorers on his AHL team. I can understand why they traded him, but to get Thomas in return is not what I would have done and so far it hasn't panned out. Granted who knows what would have happened had we just kept Kristo, and injuries have impacted Thomas since the trade. Guess we'll see if Kristo sees time in the NHL next year and what happens to Thomas.
    Okay, he was right that Sly was going to be fired, but saying the same thing every day for 5 or 6 years when we all know that every coach is hired to be fired doesn't make you Nostradamus.

    Genuinely, I'm not sure I follow entirely. Could you please elaborate b/c I think I agree.
     
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  20. Whitesnake

    Whitesnake Dracarys or Décalisse

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    Not sure what's wrong about what he said. Thomas hasn't panned out. And Kristo did have pretty good number in the NCAA. Somehow, the same numbers that we loved to see from Evans were not good enough for Kristo? So reading his comments about the trade.....well aside from Kristo not panning out, he isn't wrong. Yes, saying the same thing every day for 5 years might not make you Nostradamus yet, it's not really the point. Wanting a guy to be fired 3 years ago and seeing what we see now just tells us that we were right to ask for it. In the following 3 years, Lefebvre didn't make us eat crow. To a point that the guy didn't earn a head coaching job after being fired. And seeing how our team struggled....yeah, he should have been fired 3 years ago. Wasn't a prediction....was a wish.
     
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  21. Kriss E

    Kriss E Registered User

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    Was that supposed to prove anything?
     
  22. WhiskeySeven*

    WhiskeySeven* Expect the expected

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    You argue as well as your name-sake.

    Most of those players were either drafted, developed, or acquired by major figures within the organization today. That's poor asset management in and of itself.
     
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  23. montreal

    montreal Go Habs Go

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    I was a big Kristo fan, he was a lot of fun to watch, and it's not like he sucked, he did put up 97 pts in 82 games in his final 2 years at ND. His line in his senior year with Knight and MacMillan was the top line in the NCAA that year, they dominated teams.

    But when you give your opinion on over 30 prospects every year you are going to be wrong plenty. I thought Collberg was going to be a very good 2nd line winger for us along with Kristo, I badly wanted us to draft Higgins and Perezhogin, thought for sure they would be long time Habs. When Ryder got sent to the ECHL for the 2nd time I said he would never make the NHL. After watching Garon lose in the playoffs vs Hamilton I thought he was done and then after watching him in Hamilton with that stacked team I thought he was going to be a very good goalie. I like O'Byrne a lot and thought he would stick around longer then 300+ NHL games.

    When I watched Pateryn and Bennett for 4 years at Michigan I never would have thought that Pateryn would be the NHLer and Bennett out of hockey. Bennett looked so much better while Pateryn lacked the skating, speed. I only saw say 4 or so games of Leblanc at Havard but if you had told me that Alex Killorn would end up being the better NHLer I wouldn't have believed it. (thought they were the top 3 scorers on the team so not that shocking)

    I took a ton of heat when I started ranking Subban over McDonagh while he was still in the OHL. Ask @Mrb1p how much crap he gave me over my dislike of Beaulieu, I mean just look at this thread as I have someone following me around trying to troll me because I openly admitted my hate of Lefebvre and how i thought he was the WORST coach I'd ever seen at the pro level. I couldn't stand the guy and I fully voiced my opinion and every year there would be a small handful of posters telling how wrong I was about him. They spun the wheel of excuses for him except when it came to trying to explain his poor decisions with his roster.

    Now maybe I was wrong there, maybe it was less Lefebvre and MB fired the wrong guy and instead should have fired Timmins. I don't believe that simply because Timmins had a proven track record. Most posters seem to say he did a good job up until '08. Lefebvre had NEVER been a head coach before, not one game of experience. So he's had zero track record. Then you look at the moves he makes, his obsession with Maxime Macenauer, over Leblanc, and others. Putting no talent grinders on the PP. What a joke. Letting kids sit in the press box while guys like Joe Finley would get ice time, what a terrible way to develop and his record shows what a failure he was.

    And I've said over and over and over that it's not just on him, management, MT/CJ, Timmins and his staff, the players, they all have a hand in this. But Lebefvre was at the top along with MB in who I wanted to see fired and replaced with someone better. If MB goes and the new GM wants to get rid of Timmins then so be it but imo he's much less at fault then Lefebvre and this management team for rushing these kids and poorly handling them.
     
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  24. Mrb1p

    Mrb1p PRICERSTOPDAPUCK

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    Doesnt Beaulieu work against your Lefevre argument though :sarcasm:
    I fell in love with his tools and knew I was wrong for a while before he left, but hey, Im a trooper :laugh:
     
  25. montreal

    montreal Go Habs Go

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    It does work against my Timmins support since he's struggled so badly after putting up 28 pts. He does have 75 pts in just over 300 games, so it's not the worst pick for sure. But I took a lot of heat from several posters at the time, the same for Tinordi as I had fans tell me how wrong I was about him and that he would be an NHLer.

    But to me it's not about being right and wrong, I mean if you are wrong all the time or even most of the time then clearly you need to re-think voicing your opinion on any subject but for all the years I've been at HF, it seems like so many are just focused on being right when everyone will be right/wrong but it's about learning from your mistakes and trying to be a little more humble when others disagree even if you know they are wrong cause in the end no one knows how things are going to turn out. We can think we know and we may end up being right but there could be other factors that led to that that we didn't even know about. This place is always so aggressive about being right or wrong when it should be more about just discussing ones opinions and why they feel that way.
     
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