Trevor Timmins Discussion Part III

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Whitesnake

If you rebuild, they will come.
Jan 5, 2003
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It is only with hindsight that people hate the bulk of Timmins' picks. For the most part, they were well-liked by both HFBoards fans and the hockey world until they started busting. Many of them were even tracking well for a long time.

I'm consistent in my views. I think that nearly all players need development, and that the Habs are a development nightmare in part due to Bergevin being a dinosaur, which percolates down. I expect things to change now. If they don't, I will re-evaluate.

But you do judge a head scout in hindsight. Just like every job in the world is. There are 2 games being played here. Who wins the draft one day after the draft. And who really wins it 5 years after. Timmins is fine at winning the after-draft. But it means nothing as reality kicks in.
 
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DAChampion

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But you do judge a head scout in hindsight. Just like every job in the world is. There are 2 games being played here. Who wins the draft one day after the draft. And who really wins it 5 years after. Timmins is fine at winning the after-draft. But it means nothing as reality kicks in.

I try and do full-spectrum evaluation of people rather than only seeing the results that are beyond their control.

There's really only one thing that Timmins could have done differently. He could have drafted more Europeans like Lehkonen, and thus bypassed the Lefebvre development issue. It may be fair to blame him for that.

In general the picks were good. Louis Leblanc was the consensus pick at his position, and was an outstanding third line rookie in 2012. He then busted once new management got a hold of him.

Galchenyuk was rated as the top prospect in the entire NHL, was widely lauded for his two-way play and hockey IQ, and was being compared to Hossa and Toews. He had a rookie season on par with those of Tavares and Stamos. He then busted.

The list goes on.

In general, Lefebvre (also Therrien) was an unmitigated disaster. His greatest success story is Gregory Pateryn, and the Habs didn't even realize that he was a decent player. Regardless, it's a terrible result after six years.

Anyway, science gives a way out. If you're right and I'm wrong, then Fleury, Brook, Evans, Poehling, etc will all bust. However, if they do well, then that will vindicate the view that the drafting was fine.
 
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peate

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Draft is 50-50 at best. No one can predict if a junior superstar will translate into an NHL one. More often than not, that last step is too high for a lot of them. It's the relatively unknown 2nd and 3rd rounders that slip under the radar and make a scout look good.
 

cphabs

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Draft is 50-50 at best. No one can predict if a junior superstar will translate into an NHL one. More often than not, that last step is too high for a lot of them. It's the relatively unknown 2nd and 3rd rounders that slip under the radar and make a scout look good.
Fine, then you better sure as hell have the best development program in the f***ing world! Trainers, psychologist, COACHES, and a farm system that doesn’t get destroyed on a continual basis. Especially in a capped league that is expanding. Seriously brother, there is no other way IMO. Laval will make us or break us. We should start there. I am bummed that Scherbak was claimed, but I think our organization is starting to get the big picture with recent moves.
 

Mathletic

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It's not his fault that Lefebvre was hired for six years.

You can watch the changes in the next two years. All of a sudden guys like Fleury, Poehling, abd Evans will stop busting.

It's true Lefebvre did a terrible job but Timmins picked players with such low potential. McCarron could barely stand on his feet in his first season in the OHL. De La Rose never had kind of offensive potential going back to his junior years in Sweden. Tinordi struggled in his first season in the OHL. Sure Lefebvre didn't help but Timmins drafted poorly also.
 

cphabs

The 2 stooges….
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It's true Lefebvre did a terrible job but Timmins picked players with such low potential. McCarron could barely stand on his feet in his first season in the OHL. De La Rose never had kind of offensive potential going back to his junior years in Sweden. Tinordi struggled in his first season in the OHL. Sure Lefebvre didn't help but Timmins drafted poorly also.
Seriously? What were these player’s stats AFTER their first year in the OHL? When drafted? Maybe, just maybe their development increased in the OHL while not having a head coach in the AHL telling them, something to the effect, of being nothing more than a 3rd liner. LMFAO! Lefbreve single handledly set our organization behind another decade.
 
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DAChampion

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It's true Lefebvre did a terrible job but Timmins picked players with such low potential. McCarron could barely stand on his feet in his first season in the OHL. De La Rose never had kind of offensive potential going back to his junior years in Sweden. Tinordi struggled in his first season in the OHL. Sure Lefebvre didn't help but Timmins drafted poorly also.

You have a good argument on those three, though even they were mismanaged. Meanwhile, Leblanc, Beaulieu, Galchenyuk, Scherbak, had much better tools, and still failed.

Tinordi, De La Rose, and McCarron all looked to be at their best in their first seasons with the Habs organization.
 
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The Great Weal

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There still hasnt been a D as good as him drafted since then :)
There have definitely been some good #1ds drafted outside the first since then. I'm not even asking for a Pk subban, just a good top 4 dman would be nice.
 

The Great Weal

Phil's Pizza
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You just have to be patient and things will happen. Juulsen is at the NHL level ATM, even though you somehow hold the narrative that he sucks.
So looks like you agree neither of those guys drafted outside the 1st are top 4 nhl dmen as of now.

Juulsen doesnt suck, hes had good and bad games so far. Hes like a good #5 dman right now.
 

JeffreyLFC

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Sep 29, 2017
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Oh yeah you are right. I must have missed Josh Brook in the habs top 4 for the past 27 games. My bad.
Well it would be hard because he is going to play for the WJC and he is only 19 years old and one of the top defenseman in the whole CHL. You might be overreacting a tad.

The other guys we drafted outside the 1st round that played and has relative success in the NHL excluding Subban are Streit, Emelin, Weber, O'byrne, Mete.

Not bad.. really.

Now go with our 1st round defenseman!
Fisher, Beaulieu Tinordi, McDonagh, Sergachev, Juulsen.

Overall that would be good defense.

McDonagh Subban
Sergachev Juulsen
Streit/Emelin Weber/O'byrne

Now as we pointed out we have Josh Brook (who is looking great) and Fleury who also shown lot of promise. Romanov is also impressing. I think I have more confidence in Timmins finding decent defenseman over forwards.
 
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The Great Weal

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Well it would be hard because he is going to play for the WJC and he is only 19 years old and one of the top defenseman in the whole CHL. You might be overreacting a tad.
Don't think so. I said that we haven't drafted a top 4 dman outisde the 1st since 2008, and so far I am right.

The other guys we drafted outside the 1st round that played and has relative success in the NHL excluding Subban are Streit, Emelin, Weber, O'byrne, Mete.

Not bad.. really.
O'Byrne? That's like telling your boss "I feel like I deserve a raise because of what I did 15 years ago".

Now go with our 1st round defenseman!
Fisher, Beaulieu Tinordi, McDonagh, Sergachev, Juulsen.
McDonagh is the only one that is a top 4 dman. Sergachev and Juulsen can be for sure, but RIGHT NOW, they aren't.


Now as we pointed out we have Josh Brook (who is looking great) and Fleury who also shown lot of promise. Romanov is also impressing. I think I have more confidence in Timmins finding decent defenseman over forwards.
You know who else looked great in junior? McNiven and a bunch of other people. I like Brook, but he needs to do something in the NHL before I get excited. Same thing with Fleury and Romanov(who I am still skeptical about picking him that early). I have more confidence in Timmins for dmen too, but he has been brutal for the past decade at drafting an impact player at any position.
 
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Mrb1p

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Don't think so. I said that we haven't drafted a top 4 dman outisde the 1st since 2008, and so far I am right.


O'Byrne? That's like telling your boss "I feel like I deserve a raise because of what I did 15 years ago".


McDonagh is the only one that is a top 4 dman. Sergachev and Juulsen can be for sure, but RIGHT NOW, they aren't.



You know who else looked great in junior? McNiven and a bunch of other people. I like Brook, but he needs to do something in the NHL before I get excited. Same thing with Fleury and Romanov(who I am still skeptical about picking him that early). I have more confidence in Timmins for dmen too, but he has been brutal for the past decade at drafting an impact player at any position.
No one since... Galchenyuk has looked this good in juniors.
 
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