Trevor Timmins Discussion Part III

[Wats]

Apart from McCarron and De la Rose, when have you seen that approach? Doesn’t seem usual to me

Well if we're ignoring previous regime, Habs are in process of doing it to Mete/Juulsen. There are countless posts over the years arguing for/against having players in the NHL just because they might be able to survive it defensively.

Only players they didn't rush to NHL that are currently NHLers are Hudon/Andrighetto. Judging by them leaving Hudon exposed at expansion draft it's likely only because they didn't even see anything in him to rush rather than it being a development tactic.

 

[scrubadam]

both injuries and **** coaches have impacted his development. He only played in 140 AHL games, that's less then 2 full seasons. But if you play him with waivers Shaw or Audette, you are wasting his talents. If he's not with guys can that convert his great passes, what's the point.

2 problems, one lack of talent in AHL/NHL club and 2 like I said injuries. If he didn't get injured this year I think he would of had a shot at playing on the 2nd or even 1st line. Also the injuries on the big club would of hurt him too since no Max/Danault/Lek for a big chung of the season. so not much talent to go around for him to play with as all that was really left was AG and Drouin.

 

[montreal]

2 problems, one lack of talent in AHL/NHL club and 2 like I said injuries. If he didn't get injured this year I think he would of had a shot at playing on the 2nd or even 1st line. Also the injuries on the big club would of hurt him too since no Max/Danault/Lek for a big chung of the season. so not much talent to go around for him to play with as all that was really left was AG and Drouin.

no, it's bad coaching and injuries. Every year I watch most of the AHL games and every year I have posters that don't tell me incorrectly about our AHL team. Lack of talent? They had 2 of the best snipers in the AHL and they had a playmaker with elite passing skills. So what did they do, they put him with turds. Sounds like a great way to coach, it took them half the season to finally figure out that putting your best playmaker with your best goalscorers is smart. That's bad coaching.

In the NHL they put him with Galchenyuk but Julien couldn't handle it so he moved him on a line with waivers Shaw and put Galchenyuk with DLR. That's bad coaching, the season was lost, we had nothing to play for, why not try to get their confidence going by putting your best playmaker with your best scorer, but of course defense is all that matters Julien didn't want the fans to enjoy a tiny bit of exciting hockey.

 

[Chili]

Updated article on farm system rankings below. Problem is I don`t know how to `descroll`the top of the Sporting news site. I copy pasted the article into Notepad to read it.

Anyway, they ranked the Habs 18th and listed the Habs top prospects as:

1. Jesperi Kotkaniemi C/LW Assat (SM-Liiga) 1st/2018
2. Ryan Poehling C Minn.-Duluth (NCAA) 1st/2017
3. Jacob Olofsson C Timra IK (SHL) 2nd/2018
4. Noah Juulsen RHD Montreak (NHL) 1st/2015
5. Jesse Ylonen RW Pelicans (SM-Liiga) 2nd/2018
6. Cayden Primeau G Northeastern (NCAA) 7th/2017
7. Joni Ikonen C Kalpa (SM-Liiga) 2nd/2017
8. Jake Evans C Laval (AHL) 7th/2014
9. Josh Brook RHD Moose Jaw (WHL) 2nd/2017
10. Cam Hillis C Guelph (OHL) 3rd/2018

NHL farm system rankings: Best, worst prospect pipelines for 2018-19, from 1 to 31

 

[Mrb1p]

@Chili
And he ranked Jesperi 36th behind Cirelli, Thomas, Veleno, Farabee, Kostin.

This guys a joke.

 

[Chili]

@Chili
And he ranked Jesperi 36th behind Cirelli, Thomas, Veleno, Farabee, Kostin.

This guys a joke.

These type of lists are just opinions, like ours.

Even if they were fairly accurate, they`re subject to change.

I just like to get to know all of the names across the league and go from there.

 

[Mrb1p]

These type of lists are just opinions, like ours.

Even if they were fairly accurate, they`re subject to change.

I just like to get to know all of the names across the league and go from there.

The problem is being contradictory for the sake of it, Dahlin at 3, Pettersson at 1, Necas at 13th, etc. He has ridiculous opinions and my guess is that its a lot more click bait than actual opinion. Generating opinion and all. Id be interested in seeing his other lists.

 

[Chili]

The problem is being contradictory for the sake of it, Dahlin at 3, Pettersson at 1, Necas at 13th, etc. He has ridiculous opinions and my guess is that its a lot more click bait than actual opinion. Generating opinion and all. Id be interested in seeing his other lists.

I guess I don`t take the order as seriously. It doesn`t matter what it is there would be debate.

I seem to remember a Habs list years ago where Gallagher was ranked 10th and everyone ahead of him has flamed out.

So I just take it all with a grain or two of salt.

 

[yianik]

no, it's bad coaching and injuries. Every year I watch most of the AHL games and every year I have posters that don't tell me incorrectly about our AHL team. Lack of talent? They had 2 of the best snipers in the AHL and they had a playmaker with elite passing skills. So what did they do, they put him with turds. Sounds like a great way to coach, it took them half the season to finally figure out that putting your best playmaker with your best goalscorers is smart. That's bad coaching.

In the NHL they put him with Galchenyuk but Julien couldn't handle it so he moved him on a line with waivers Shaw and put Galchenyuk with DLR. That's bad coaching, the season was lost, we had nothing to play for, why not try to get their confidence going by putting your best playmaker with your best scorer, but of course defense is all that matters Julien didn't want the fans to enjoy a tiny bit of exciting hockey.

Coming in before someone posts some gibberish about how winning hockey is all that matters and that is exciting enough, even if it's a boring system.

Well it isnt winning hockey. Two decades of crud. The only times we did anything in the post season it wasn't the brilliant strategies of MT and JM, it was goalies who played exceptionally well and carried the team.

This defensive hockey does not give you a play off contender. It cant. As part of it you neutralize your own skill players so the other team doesn't have to. Then you rely on the other team making mistakes and capitalizing on them. That's like refusing the kick off in football because your plan is to stop the other team with your D and get it back deep in their territory, and attack with a rush / screen play game.

 

[montreal]

Updated article on farm system rankings below. Problem is I don`t know how to `descroll`the top of the Sporting news site. I copy pasted the article into Notepad to read it.

Anyway, they ranked the Habs 18th and listed the Habs top prospects as:

1. Jesperi Kotkaniemi C/LW Assat (SM-Liiga) 1st/2018
2. Ryan Poehling C Minn.-Duluth (NCAA) 1st/2017
3. Jacob Olofsson C Timra IK (SHL) 2nd/2018
4. Noah Juulsen RHD Montreak (NHL) 1st/2015
5. Jesse Ylonen RW Pelicans (SM-Liiga) 2nd/2018
6. Cayden Primeau G Northeastern (NCAA) 7th/2017
7. Joni Ikonen C Kalpa (SM-Liiga) 2nd/2017
8. Jake Evans C Laval (AHL) 7th/2014
9. Josh Brook RHD Moose Jaw (WHL) 2nd/2017
10. Cam Hillis C Guelph (OHL) 3rd/2018

NHL farm system rankings: Best, worst prospect pipelines for 2018-19, from 1 to 31

that's interesting. Olofsson over Ylonen, Ikonen at 7 seems kind of high, I think Brook is one of our best prospects so surprised to see him that low. But much better then the dobber one posted a few days ago.

 

[Chili]

that's interesting. Olofsson over Ylonen, Ikonen at 7 seems kind of high, I think Brook is one of our best prospects so surprised to see him that low. But much better then the dobber one posted a few days ago.

Forecaster Yearbook is out, their list...

1. Juulsen
2. Poehling
3. Kotkaniemi
4. Olofsson
5. Lindgren
6. Ikonen
7. McNiven
8. Sklenicka
9. Moracvik
10. Primeau

Brook was 11th and Ylonen 12th.

They are high on Juulsen, have him among the top rookie dmen for this season with Rasmus Dahlen, Evan Bouchard and Miro Heiskanen..

Edit: they are high on Mete too, he`s just not listed as a prospect anymore.

 

[montreal]

Forecaster Yearbook is out, their list...

1. Juulsen
2. Poehling
3. Kotkaniemi
4. Olofsson
5. Lindgren
6. Ikonen
7. McNiven
8. Sklenicka
9. Moracvik
10. Primeau

Brook was 11th and Ylonen 12th.

They are high on Juulsen, have him among the top rookie dmen for this season with Rasmus Dahlen, Evan Bouchard and Miro Heiskanen..

Edit: they are high on Mete too, he`s just not listed as a prospect anymore.

wow, I don't know who that is but that might be the worst list I've ever seen.

 

[Chili]

wow, I don't know who that is but that might be the worst list I've ever seen.

Don`t know how they come up with their lists but could be related to depth chart (below).

I like their yearbook for the player profiles.

NHL Depth Chart | The Sports Forecaster

 

[montreal]

Don`t know how they come up with their lists but could be related to depth chart (below).

I like their yearbook for the player profiles.

NHL Depth Chart | The Sports Forecaster

can't say I like their depth chart either. How the hell is Delo ahead of Hudon?

 

[Chili]

can't say I like their depth chart either. How the hell is Delo ahead of Hudon?

For the prospects, they used to just print profiles of the best ones without giving them any team ranking at all(i.e. 1 to 10), which I preferred.

Not for all players, especially recent draftees but for many on the depth chart, if you click the player`s name there is alot of other info there, including profiles.

Edit: I see what you`re saying about Deslauriers/Hudon.

 

[montreal]

Very few, but Corey Pronman is a better candidate to do so than most. This is what he does for a living, full time, and he's been at it for several years. Back in 2008/09 he was a Habs message board poster like many of us, but now he has successfully made this a career.

If he says that the Habs farm system is genuinely above-average but not elite, then I'm inclined to believe him.

I personally don't put any stock into anything he says, I haven't red much from him but in the past I didn't care for his opinions. But in watching the prospects closely I just don't see much to like outside of a small handful and a lot of question marks. But it sounds like he's very high on our draft this summer and I'm not sold yet after the 1st 2 picks and Hillis if he can work on his skating, adding mass/strength and speed.

 

[Adam Michaels]

Corey Pronman is doing a countdown of the NHL's top farm systems rankings. So far, he's counted down from 31 to 10 and Montreal hasn't come up yet. So according to him, the Habs are in his Top-9 farm systems.

31 - Washington
30 - Tampa Bay
29 - Calgary
28 - Winnipeg
27 - Boston
26 - Nashville
25 - Columbus
24 - Anaheim
23 - Pittsburgh
22 - Edmonton
21 - Colorado
20 - New Jersey
19 - Toronto
18 - Minnesota
17 - San Jose
16 - Dallas
15 - Arizona
14 - Chicago
13 - Ottawa
12 - Philadelphia
11 - New York Rangers
10 - Los Angeles

Here is the link to his rankings on The Athletic (must be subscribed) and he links each team's farm system to justify his position: Pronman: 2018-19 NHL farm system rankings

 

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

Corey Pronman is doing a countdown of the NHL's top farm systems rankings. So far, he's counted down from 31 to 10 and Montreal hasn't come up yet. So according to him, the Habs are in his Top-9 farm systems.

31 - Washington
30 - Tampa Bay
29 - Calgary
28 - Winnipeg
27 - Boston
26 - Nashville
25 - Columbus
24 - Anaheim
23 - Pittsburgh
22 - Edmonton
21 - Colorado
20 - New Jersey
19 - Toronto
18 - Minnesota
17 - San Jose
16 - Dallas
15 - Arizona
14 - Chicago
13 - Ottawa
12 - Philadelphia
11 - New York Rangers
10 - Los Angeles

Here is the link to his rankings on The Athletic (must be subscribed) and he links each team's farm system to justify his position: Pronman: 2018-19 NHL farm system rankings

My view of prospects is completely Hab-centric. I have no idea what the rest of the league has but I really doubt we're top 9. Even with this draft I don't even think we'd be top 15. We have one blue chip prospect. Our consensus #2 prospect might not even be a top 6er. No real potential top pairing guys except for maybe Brook who started his season with a bang but ended it with a wimper.

Don't get me wrong. I like the depth of our pool but the quality isn't exactly there. It's decent but it really lacks high end upside. Even Kotka isn't a sure fire #1C and he's our crown jewel right now.

 

[JohnLennon]

My view of prospects is completely Hab-centric. I have no idea what the rest of the league has but I really doubt we're top 9. Even with this draft I don't even think we'd be top 15. We have one blue chip prospect. Our consensus #2 prospect might not even be a top 6er. No real potential top pairing guys except for maybe Brook who started his season with a bang but ended it with a wimper.

Don't get me wrong. I like the depth of our pool but the quality isn't exactly there. It's decent but it really lacks high end upside. Even Kotka isn't a sure fire #1C and he's our crown jewel right now.

Pronman ranks high-end potential much more than prospect pool depth. That's why Philadelphia is #12, while the Habs are top 8. He sees Kotkaniemi as one of only 8 elite prospects in the league. He also really liked Ylonen and Olofsson before the draft. He basically thought the Habs had a fantastic draft.

He also really likes Poehling and Juulsen (who is eligible for the rankings). Then you've got the likes of Primeau, Brook, Fleury, etc and it's easy to see why Pronman has the Habs ranked highly. I've been tracking these rankings every day and find myself agreeing with almost everything he says. I highly recommend reading through each team's review if you're subscribed.

 

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

Pronman ranks high-end potential much more than prospect pool depth. That's why Philadelphia is #12, while the Habs are top 8. He sees Kotkaniemi as one of only 8 elite prospects in the league. He also really liked Ylonen and Olofsson before the draft. He basically thought the Habs had a fantastic draft.

He also really likes Poehling and Juulsen (who is eligible for the rankings). Then you've got the likes of Primeau, Brook, Fleury, etc and it's easy to see why Pronman has the Habs ranked highly. I've been tracking these rankings every day and find myself agreeing with almost everything he says. I highly recommend reading through each team's review if you're subscribed.

Fair enough. Don't get me wrong I loved our last draft. One of my favourites on paper since following them more or less. If not my actual favourite. I'm hyped on Ylonen too. I've since cooled on Olofsson (for foolish reasons) but I actually think Hillis could be something. Like what I see from Romanov's game. I like all the picks except Houde and even he apparently had a decent dev. camp.

I actually think that the drafting under MB has been a pretty decent improvement. We've really only seen the returns on '12 and '13 and those 2 were pretty miserable. '14 and '15 suffered from lack of picks but there's still Scherbak and Juulsen who shown some very nice things as pros. As well as Evans.

The last 3 drafts were quite good.

I hope he's right. But yeah I'll check out his profile on us.

 

[montreal]

Corey Pronman is doing a countdown of the NHL's top farm systems rankings. So far, he's counted down from 31 to 10 and Montreal hasn't come up yet. So according to him, the Habs are in his Top-9 farm systems.

31 - Washington
30 - Tampa Bay
29 - Calgary
28 - Winnipeg
27 - Boston
26 - Nashville
25 - Columbus
24 - Anaheim
23 - Pittsburgh
22 - Edmonton
21 - Colorado
20 - New Jersey
19 - Toronto
18 - Minnesota
17 - San Jose
16 - Dallas
15 - Arizona
14 - Chicago
13 - Ottawa
12 - Philadelphia
11 - New York Rangers
10 - Los Angeles

Here is the link to his rankings on The Athletic (must be subscribed) and he links each team's farm system to justify his position: Pronman: 2018-19 NHL farm system rankings

i moved it here since 417 already brought it up in this thread. The '16 draft is looking good, I like the '14 as a could be a bit of a surprise class and while still way too early the '17 draft had a very good year. I know Pronman likes the '18 draft the Habs had, I'm far from sold outside the Kotka/Ylonen picks but we'll see in a few years.

 

[The Great Weal]

I'd have no issue putting us top 10 if we took Addison instead of Romanov.

 

[groovejuice]

Pronman ranks high-end potential much more than prospect pool depth. That's why Philadelphia is #12, while the Habs are top 8. He sees Kotkaniemi as one of only 8 elite prospects in the league. He also really liked Ylonen and Olofsson before the draft. He basically thought the Habs had a fantastic draft.

He also really likes Poehling and Juulsen (who is eligible for the rankings). Then you've got the likes of Primeau, Brook, Fleury, etc and it's easy to see why Pronman has the Habs ranked highly. I've been tracking these rankings every day and find myself agreeing with almost everything he says. I highly recommend reading through each team's review if you're subscribed.

It's an interesting list. I would have thought some teams would be higher, ie. Nashville especially with a high end prospect like Tolvanen and guys like Fabbro and Pettersson, all of whom should be closer to the NHL than the Habs top prospects.

Can't argue that our last draft should have moved the team up the list substantially.

 

[Andrei79]

I kind of roll my eyes at members of this forum who often rank the Habs' farm system relative to other teams. I invest way too much time into the Habs, and I barely know about the Habs' prospects. How many people can actually reliably gauge the farm systems of other teams? It would require a huge time commitment to have a genuine clue ... something of the order of doing it as a full-time job for several years.

Very few, but Corey Pronman is a better candidate to do so than most. This is what he does for a living, full time, and he's been at it for several years. Back in 2008/09 he was a Habs message board poster like many of us, but now he has successfully made this a career.

If he says that the Habs farm system is genuinely above-average but not elite, then I'm inclined to believe him.

Its a fair point, but I'll make a parallel with NHL rosters. You have 31 rosters comprising of 23 players for hundreds of NHL players. Yet, following the league as most here do, we can guess who are the top teams and which rosters are stacked/not so good. And usually, the same players are more or less the best players, so you don't have to reset your knowledge yearly. Just add to it.


Its a bit of the same for farm systems, only there's really about 5 prospects per team that really are interesting and can realistically project to have somewhat of an impact. If you follow the draft, you usually end up knowing and viewing 90-150 of those players every year. Do it yearly, follow their progression a bit (often times, theyre playing against the draft elligible players youre watching) and you pretty quickly get to know every teams top guys.

Long term, you know their playstyles from following them, so understanding and knowing NHL rosters becomes that much easier.

 

[417]

Corey Pronman's list continues and he has the Golden Knights at #8.

Can't wait to see where the Habs land on this list - looking forward to reading his in-depth analysis.

I'm predicting Habs at 6