Trevor Timmins Discussion Part III

[Lshap]

Well an argument can be made that Lefebvre pushed Tinordi into fighting more, and it was fighting guys who were real fighters that hurt him.

Exactly how I remember it. Tinordi looked way too willing to become the tough guy, which led to a string of injuries that screwed up his hands and compromised whatever career he might've had. Whether the directive to fight came from the coach, from Tinordi's motivation to impress the team, or from a personal primal rage, that was precisely the type of behaviour that should've been schooled out of him by his coaches. Breathe, Jared. You're not a goon, Jared. That's not what we want you to become, Jared. Unless he willfully ignored those instructions, I have to believe the coaches never made that point crystal clear to him.

 

[JeffreyLFC]

I will always believe that it is better for younger player to dominate at lower level before making the jump.

I know it's controversial around here but I would send Mete and Juulsen down to improve their offense. They will not have this opportunity with the first team.

During the glory days of the habs it was very hard for young players to establish themselves with the main team same applied with Detroit during their golden years. You had to dominate at lower level before making the jump to the NHL. Even when younger players made the main team they started with lower roles until they earned promotions. And these teams greatly dominated their peers during these years. That's how you become a powerhouse.

I would always favor patience with any young players except some very rare exceptions like generational talent and physicaly dominant young players with incredible skillset.

 

[Whitesnake]

I think that Leblanc case is a case by itself. Yes I agree, he was picked because the draft was in Montreal. But he was also picked because we didn't do a good enough job picking up locals before that. There is no pressure to pick Leblanc, if you have many Leblanc in your lineup. Then, as far as whose fault it is, the end result is that contrary to a lot of kids not being able to be NHL'ers, he decided to quit hockey. Clearly, for me, it means that the guy was willing to go as far as he could with the talent he had.....but when it came to working hard and putting some effort into it, he wasn't willing to. Could that have been seen at the draft? Could interviews be able to know something like that? Maybe, maybe not. But Leblanc and 2009 is a total different ballgame. Thing is....at the end of the exercice, he is still a 1st rounder that didn't pan out.

 

[Tighthead]

Exactly how I remember it. Tinordi looked way too willing to become the tough guy, which led to a string of injuries that screwed up his hands and compromised whatever career he might've had. Whether the directive to fight came from the coach, from Tinordi's motivation to impress the team, or from a personal primal rage, that was precisely the type of behaviour that should've been schooled out of him by his coaches. Breathe, Jared. You're not a goon, Jared. That's not what we want you to become, Jared. Unless he willfully ignored those instructions, I have to believe the coaches never made that point crystal clear to him.

I don’t think he was destined for greatness, but I can’t help but think that 2-3 years at Notre Dame would have slowed everything down for him.

 

[DAChampion]

I think that Leblanc case is a case by itself. Yes I agree, he was picked because the draft was in Montreal. But he was also picked because we didn't do a good enough job picking up locals before that. There is no pressure to pick Leblanc, if you have many Leblanc in your lineup. Then, as far as whose fault it is, the end result is that contrary to a lot of kids not being able to be NHL'ers, he decided to quit hockey. Clearly, for me, it means that the guy was willing to go as far as he could with the talent he had.....but when it came to working hard and putting some effort into it, he wasn't willing to. Could that have been seen at the draft? Could interviews be able to know something like that? Maybe, maybe not. But Leblanc and 2009 is a total different ballgame. Thing is....at the end of the exercice, he is still a 1st rounder that didn't pan out.

Leblanc was the consensus BPA. He likely would have been picked if his name had been Lewis White. Gainey was also scavenging for centres at the time.

 

[Tighthead]

I think that Leblanc case is a case by itself. Yes I agree, he was picked because the draft was in Montreal. But he was also picked because we didn't do a good enough job picking up locals before that. There is no pressure to pick Leblanc, if you have many Leblanc in your lineup. Then, as far as whose fault it is, the end result is that contrary to a lot of kids not being able to be NHL'ers, he decided to quit hockey. Clearly, for me, it means that the guy was willing to go as far as he could with the talent he had.....but when it came to working hard and putting some effort into it, he wasn't willing to. Could that have been seen at the draft? Could interviews be able to know something like that? Maybe, maybe not. But Leblanc and 2009 is a total different ballgame. Thing is....at the end of the exercice, he is still a 1st rounder that didn't pan out.

Engaging in wild speculation here, but I’m not sure Louis fit the mold of a hockey player. It’s not just the Harvard thing, lots of Ivy guys are in the NHL. He may have been similar to Lecavalier in some ways, who was always curious about the world outside of hockey. Doug Hamilton may be similar.

Not only would a few more years of NCAA been good for him, but the pressure of being the hometown hero may have been, in part, a kiss of death. I don’t think the kid could breathe. Granted, some kids would absolutely eat it up, and I think part of development is recognizing which horses are for which courses.

David Duval finally won his first major and was stunned at how empty he he felt about it. Mark Pavelich quit the NHL to live in the bush. Some guys are just wired differently.

I’ve always suspected that LL just lost the desire to keep achieving at some point. There may be nobody to blame. I do think that by the time he got to Anaheim he was just going through the motions.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Okay, so are we talking about his overall body of work? Or pick by pick? Yeah, I will do this, if you don't mind. You are talking about how some picks are anti-Timmins. Which ones? Which picks did he made that he didn't make before Bergevin? You are just talking about 2 different things here. You are talking about his overall body of work, from before Bergevin to after Bergevin. Okay, so you are now comparing 03 to 11 compared to 12 to...what? Do you know how 17 18 will end up being? If you can't, even if you have a great idea, you can only compare Bergevin's draft from 12 to 16. And you can't even put Bitten in there 'cause we don't know how he will turn out to be. So you are comparing 03 to 11, eras that are done and over with that we can actually really compare....with 12 to 15. How fair is that? Geez...you can't even put 15 in there...how is Juulsen and Addison be at soon? What is their potential. So you are comparing 12 to 14? Geez, not even sure you can do that, while Scherbak takes a long time...is he a bust already? And how about Evans?

So you actually CANNOT talk about his overall body of work before and after Bergevin 'cause we don't know about the after Bergevin. So you really are talking about picks by picks, and if you are, I told that for a McCarron, there is a Tinordi. For a Crisp, there is a Qualier. For a Koberstein, there is a Missiaen (type of picks that made NO sense) etc.

You raise good points whitesnake, I just have faith/trust in Timmins past work. To me, he was spitting out NHLers better than anyone for a significant sample size, then a combination of lack of picks and PG gutting the scouting staff and then the MB era played a role, obviously you're right, much of it is still to be decided. I didn't say my point of view was scientific, but my guy tells me Timmin's knows what he's doing, because we've seen it consistently in the past. All the sudden not much has turned up, but even that isn't necessarily true anymore because some of the young guys are starting to make their way.

I still feel like Crisp/McCarron/Jeremy Gregoire/Nikolas Koberstein etc etc, they just don't feel like Timmins moves, but overall, even considering they were his picks, he's still got a pretty record, and it's looking better as of late.

Do you trust that Bergevin doesn't meddle where he shouldn't? Do you think Drouin at Center and Chucky as winger was all on CJ, or do you think maybe CJ had a mandate not to make the GM look bad? If you can accept that maybe that happened, why can't you accept that maybe he got his nose involved in the scouting too. After all, he's supposed to be a good scout himself.

I'm not even sure your position anymore. You complain about him and then you say we judge his work yet, well, I agree with you. IMO and it's all it is, TT is still near the top of the class when it comes to amateur scouting, there might be guys equal or even better, but imo, we fire him, there's a very good chance it gets worse.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

2007: One of the best draft years by any team ever!
2008-2011: Lack of picks in the top 100 and two 1st round busts. We even traded down to get Tinordi. Brutal 4 year span affecting us for years.
2012-2013: Decent but just average. We had plenty of top 100 picks but didn't hit. Galchenyuk, Hudon, Lehkonen, and DLR. 2 NHL players per year. First round bust in McCarron.
2014: Scherbak, Lernout, Evans, Hawkey. Decent considering no 2nd and 4th round picks
2015: Juulsen, Vejdemo. Not sure about Addison yet. Again, no 2nd and 4th round picks
2016: Sergachev, Bitten, Mete. Very solid and again, no 2nd round pick
2017-2018: Great draft years IMO. Good picks and lots of top 100 picks. There will be surprises and dissapointments but we will get an above average amount of NHL players from these two years.

Habs have done well but not great. Were were terrible from 2008-2011, Average from 2012-2016, and I think the last two drafts are above average. Were trending in the right direction.

I think Chucky, Hudon, Lehkonen, DLR for 2 years is decent. McCarron pick stings, don't know why we took him.

 

[montreal]

I think Chucky, Hudon, Lehkonen, DLR for 2 years is decent. McCarron pick stings, don't know why we took him.

Timmins said they made a mistake in '13 going for need in size. But that draft class isn't looking so hot. We had Rychel (18th OA), Shinkaruk (24th) and McCarron (25th), all looking like AHLers. Granted Theodore went the next pick and would be such a welcome addition over McCarron right now but even the 2nd round doesn't have much after Lehkonen who's the only player in that 2nd round with more then 28 pts as he's got more goals then any other pick has points so far.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Timmins said they made a mistake in '13 going for need in size. But that draft class isn't looking so hot. We had Rychel (18th OA), Shinkaruk (24th) and McCarron (25th), all looking like AHLers. Granted Theodore went the next pick and would be such a welcome addition over McCarron right now but even the 2nd round doesn't have much after Lehkonen who's the only player in that 2nd round with more then 28 pts as he's got more goals then any other pick has points so far.

It's a good point about the 13 draft. When you look at all the picks in the 1st two rounds, it was just not a good draft year.

 

[DAChampion]

It's a good point about the 13 draft. When you look at all the picks in the 1st two rounds, it was just not a good draft year.

Ironically, the 2013 draft was being described as a historically strong draft, like another 2003.

Not even close.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Ironically, the 2013 draft was being described as a historically strong draft, like another 2003.

Not even close.

Lets hope the 2018 draft don't become the same! Ylonen, Romanov, Olofsson.

 

[Chili]

Opening 2018-19 NHL rosters by Original Drafting/Signing team Comparison

Team/number of players on opening rosters/(Goalers+dmen+forwards)/2017-18 goals & points

Ana 29 (2+11+16) 259/743
Arz 23 (2+7+14) 189/575
Bos 28 (1+9+18) 352/940
Buf 29 (2+12+15) 222/588
Cal 19 (3+4+12) 191/484
Car 22 (1+7+14) 224/554
Chi 35 (4+11+20) 287/797
Col 15 (0+4+11) 207/600
Clb 29 (2+12+15) 250/711
Dal 27 (2+10+15) 214/583
Det 28 (2+8+18) 232/584
Edm 26 (1+10+15) 302/764
Fla 21 (1+9+11) 223/570
Lak 28 (3+7+18) 281/712
Min 22 (2+9+11) 196/581
Mtl 22 (3+9+10) 151/442
Nas 27 (2+9+16) 269/739
NJd 17 (1+6+10) 167/398
NYI 29 (3+9+17) 290/768
NYR 23 (3+5+15) 179/524
Ott 30 (2+10+18) 220/574
Phl 27 (2+6+19) 284/689
Pit 32 (5+11+16) 236/664
STL 29 (2+9+18) 235/632
SJS 31 (4+8+19) 270/658
TBL 26 (1+6+19) 287/767
Tor 24 (3+8+13) 182/519
Van 14 (1+6+7) 128/293
Veg none
Was 23 (5+7+11) 218/606
Win 18 (1+5+12) 218/519


Note: undrafted players included

Will add breakdown of goals & points between dmen & forwards in a seperate post (it looked too confusing when I started adding it above)

 

[Chili]

Opening 2018-19 NHL rosters by Original Drafting/Signing team Comparison

Team/number of players on opening rosters/(Goalers+dmen+forwards)/2017-18 goals & points

Ana 29 (2+11+16) 259/743
Arz 23 (2+7+14) 189/575
Bos 28 (1+9+18) 352/940
Buf 29 (2+12+15) 222/588
Cal 19 (3+4+12) 191/484
Car 22 (1+7+14) 224/554
Chi 35 (4+11+20) 287/797
Col 15 (0+4+11) 207/600
Clb 29 (2+12+15) 250/711
Dal 27 (2+10+15) 214/583
Det 28 (2+8+18) 232/584
Edm 26 (1+10+15) 302/764
Fla 21 (1+9+11) 223/570
Lak 28 (3+7+18) 281/712
Min 22 (2+9+11) 196/581
Mtl 22 (3+9+10) 151/442
Nas 27 (2+9+16) 269/739
NJd 17 (1+6+10) 167/398
NYI 29 (3+9+17) 290/768
NYR 23 (3+5+15) 179/524
Ott 30 (2+10+18) 220/574
Phl 27 (2+6+19) 284/689
Pit 32 (5+11+16) 236/664
STL 29 (2+9+18) 235/632
SJS 31 (4+8+19) 270/658
TBL 26 (1+6+19) 287/767
Tor 24 (3+8+13) 182/519
Van 14 (1+6+7) 128/293
Veg none
Was 23 (5+7+11) 218/606
Win 18 (1+5+12) 218/519


Note: undrafted players included

Will add breakdown of goals & points between dmen & forwards in a seperate post (it looked too confusing when I started adding it above)

Opening 2018-19 NHL rosters by Original Drafting/Signing team Comparison

Team/Goals & Points by Dmen/Goals & Points by Forwards

Ana 61/288 198/455
Arz 32/141 157/434
Bos 52/203 300/737
Buf 36/165 186/423
Cal 23/96 168/388
Car 37/149 187/405
Chi 40/177 247/620
Col 30/142 177/458
Clb 40/157 210/554
Dal 49/212 165/371
Det 14/79 218/505
Edm 41/149 261/615
Fla 37/110 186/460
LAK 40/182 241/530
Min 53/236 143/345
Mtl 39/183 112/259
Nas 69/293 200/446
NJD 24/86 143/312
NYI 39/167 251/601
NYR 18/87 161/437
Ott 31/138 189/436
Phl 44/158 240/531
Pit 53/231 183/433
STL 49/188 186/444
SJS 27/129 243/529
TBL 28/115 259/652
Tor 23/125 159/394
Van 23/96 105/197
Veg None
Was 41/182 177/424
Win 13/80 205/439

 

[26Mats]

Ironically, the 2013 draft was being described as a historically strong draft, like another 2003.

Not even close.

The second round of that draft was pretty brutal. Lehkonen seems to be the top talent, and second behind him in games played is DLR.

 

[EveryDay]

Without looking at the num ers, my impression in the last few years is that defending the rush and neutral zone is likely the most important part of having a system that focuses on team speed. Especially if the player knows how to turn defensive plays into offensive possession.

Another guy great at it in our system is Romanov.

I know some posters in here were laughing about Pronman classing MTL as the 5th best prospect pool but you can clearly see why. So many solid prospect at every positions. So happy with our drafting in the last 3 years.....

Kotkaniemi
Poehling
Suzuki(Vegas)
Brooks
Fleury
Primeau
Fonstad
Olofsson
Ylonen
Romanov
McShane
Ikonen

This is a GREAT prospect pool and if people also believe MTL will get another top5 pick next year, this pool might become the best in the NHL.

 

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

I know some posters in here were laughing about Pronman classing MTL as the 5th best prospect pool but you can clearly see why. So many solid prospect at every positions. So happy with our drafting in the last 3 years.....

Kotkaniemi
Poehling
Suzuki(Vegas)
Brooks
Fleury
Primeau
Fonstad
Olofsson
Ylonen
Romanov
McShane
Ikonen

This is a GREAT prospect pool and if people also believe MTL will get another top5 pick next year, this pool might become the best in the NHL.

I'm glad you said the last 3 years. Most say the last 2. Mete and Sergachev in the same draft is a helluva draft imo.

 

[Mrb1p]

This kid has serious upside. Perhaps a steal in the 2nd round

Timmins record drafting Ds outside of the top 20 is amazing. Subban, Juulsen, Brook, Mete, Weber, Streit, Emelin, Fleury.

Makes me excited for Romanov.

Even his top round work isnt bad with McDo and Serg to Fischer and Beau

 

[1909]

Timmins record drafting Ds outside of the top 20 is amazing. Subban, Juulsen, Brook, Mete, Weber, Streit, Emelin, Fleury.

Makes me excited for Romanov.

Even his top round work isnt bad with McDo and Serg to Fischer and Beau

McDonagh and Sergachev were very easy picks to make....

 

[Mrb1p]

McDonagh and Sergachev were very easy picks to make....

And its still picks he made.

He couldve easily went for Jost instead, what do you think? We needed Cs badly at that point and still had Beaulieu, Markov.

Same for Mcdonagh, the easy pick wouldve been Esposito.

Such a lazy narrative.

 

[FloJack]

Makes me excited for Romanov.

Me too! I really hope they can get him over here next season. I liked everything else you said, but am very intrigued with Romanov.

But I’m even more excited for Brook, great attitude, work ethic and hockey smarts to go with his athleticism. Can’t wait to see how his season materializes.

 

[1909]

And its still picks he made.

He couldve easily went for Jost instead, what do you think? We needed Cs badly at that point and still had Beaulieu, Markov.

Same for Mcdonagh, the easy pick wouldve been Esposito.

Such a lazy narrative.

Are you talking about yours ? Yes.

 

[Mrb1p]

Me too! I really hope they can get him over here next season. I liked everything else you said, but am very intrigued with Romanov.

But I’m even more excited for Brook, great attitude, work ethic and hockey smarts to go with his athleticism. Can’t wait to see how his season materializes.

Brook just needs to realize the skillset he has, and he needs to stay healthy. Both Jules and him are in the same boat, incredible potential, but they struggle to stay healthy and to take the bull by the horns. If they get it, we have two impact Ds, if we dont, we have two really good Ds on our hands still.

Romanov is fine in he KHL, he can simmer down there until hes a star.

 

[1909]

Brook just needs to realize the skillset he has, and he needs to stay healthy. Both Jules and him are in the same boat, incredible potential, but they struggle to stay healthy and to take the bull by the horns. If they get it, we have two impact Ds, if we dont, we have two really good Ds on our hands still.

Romanov is fine in he KHL, he can simmer down there until hes a star.

this is BS.... You're lucky or not. Injuries can happen to anyone at anytime.

 

[1909]

And its still picks he made.

He couldve easily went for Jost instead, what do you think? We needed Cs badly at that point and still had Beaulieu, Markov.

Same for Mcdonagh, the easy pick wouldve been Esposito.

Such a lazy narrative.

2008-2012... FIVE drafts.... How many Timmins' picks are still playing in Montreal ? TWO: Gally and Hudon.....