Trevor Timmins Discussion (Part 8)

[habsfan92]

Facts can be flawed based on how they are presented. I am a millioinare and you have $100k.... can be a fact (for example). But I got money from mom and dad and you didn't... that would be the flawed part.

Ignoring draft power is the flawed part in terms of providing a fair evaluation

That still isn't flawed. You still have a million, doesn't matter where you got it. So even if you say well some teams pick in the top 10 every year...15-20 teams aren't doing that. And those ones are also ahead of you. At a glance, it seems that we have not made the most of our selections. And upon deeper examination, that still seems to be true. You can make excuses as to why, but if you use the same reasoning for all the other teams, you will see that they have their organizational issues too.
Maybe I should say to the bank, hey, don't pay him interest on the million because he got it from mom & dad, I got 100K, so fairly speaking we should get the same $ of interest. Life doesn't work that way.

 

[Habs Halifax]

That still isn't flawed. You still have a million, doesn't matter where you got it. So even if you say well some teams pick in the top 10 every year...15-20 teams aren't doing that. And those ones are also ahead of you. At a glance, it seems that we have not made the most of our selections. And upon deeper examination, that still seems to be true. You can make excuses as to why, but if you use the same reasoning for all the other teams, you will see that they have their organizational issues too.
Maybe I should say to the bank, hey, don't pay him interest on the million because he got it from mom & dad, I got 100K, so fairly speaking we should get the same $ of interest. Life doesn't work that way.

My analogy didn't work

 

[The Great Weal]

Price had a 2.49 gaa and .918 save % last year, if you count goalies with at least 35 starts, Price would be tied for 10th in the league in save %, if you bump it up to 50 starts he would be tied for 4th in the league.

He was 10th in gaa for goalies with at least 35 starts, for 50 or more starts he would be 4th again.

Timmins biggest problem is not being able to find high end forwards, his strength has been on the blueline and in net to a lesser extent. He's drafted 3 30+ goal scorers and that's clearly not good enough. He's going to have to hope Caufield and Kotka can reach their ceilings.

If Price was simply average from the start of the season to December, we would have made the playoffs. He was great from January to the end of season, but it just shows you how his game isn't consistent anymore. Galchenyuk isn't a 30+ goalscorer. He hit the 30 goal mark once, which was very clearly an anomaly.

He doesn't have to hope for anything if Caufield, KK and Poehling bust. The GM will still defend him, some fans will still defend him and blame Bergevin and Julien, and 2007 will be brought up again saying how he is capable of doing well.

 

[Habs Halifax]

If Price was simply average from the start of the season to December, we would have made the playoffs. He was great from January to the end of season, but it just shows you how his game isn't consistent anymore. Galchenyuk isn't a 30+ goalscorer. He hit the 30 goal mark once, which was very clearly an anomaly.

He doesn't have to hope for anything if Caufield, KK and Poehling bust. The GM will still defend him, some fans will still defend him and blame Bergevin and Julien, and 2007 will be brought up again saying how he is capable of doing well.

By the time we know how good Caufield, KK, Poehling really are, Bergevin's 2 year term is done. Or he is extended and 75% of our fan base or more will flip out!

 

[The Great Weal]

By the time we know how good Caufield, KK, Poehling really are, Bergevin's 2 year term is done. Or he is extended and 75% of our fan base or more will flip out!

No doubt in my mind that he gets extended after Molsons 3-8 year comment.

 

[Habs Halifax]

No doubt in my mind that he gets extended after Molsons 3-8 year comment.

A lot can happen in the next two seasons (good, bad, or meh)

 

[montreal]

To be fair to Timmins, he wanted Kreider in 09.

I don't know how true that is or not, but I know I was told they were high on Despres that year and up until that year the source was never wrong, although that was the last time he gave me any info I believe.

that what he is saying 10 years later .. easy to say 10 years lather that I wanted ROR that year by exemple

I can only speak for a few years that I had very good info on who Timmins liked, I knew months before the draft he was high on McDonagh because I never heard of him and so I went out of my way to watch him play for CDH in the USHS. But after '09 I stopped getting info. I never heard anything on Kreider though. I know in '08 he was high on Karlsson months before the draft cause I said at the time who is that.

Timmins wanting Giroux over Fischer is full crap though.

His scouting list might have Giroux very high but they certainly did not draft Giroux when they had a chance and the fact he claim that they hesitated until the last second is just rhetoric. His scouting team and himself put f***ing David Fischer above Claude Giroux and the rest is history. If he really really wanted Giroux, 1- He would have been higher on his list in the first place, 2- He was the boss (head scout) and he could have overturn any of his scout decision if he really wanted Giroux.

The rest is just him wanting to save his face from this fiasco. And let's get the record straight, nobody would have blamed him (at least in the french media) to "reach" (as per the consensus ranking) on a french Ontarian that dominated the Q and actually even easier for the fanbase to swallow than some obscure defenseman from Minnesota High School. All this let's revisit history bullshit is IMO tainting more Timmins as a bullshitter.

Apparently:

• He wanted Jeff Carter over Andrei Kostitsyn (just draft him for god sake you are in charge)
• He wanted Claude Giroux over David Fischer (just draft him for god sake you are in charge)
• He wanted John Carlson but we traded away our 1st round pick that year
  
• He wanted Chris Kreider over Louis Leblanc (just draft him for god sake you are in charge)
• He was forced to select Tinordi because the habs were lacking size at the backend.
• He wanted Teuvo Teravainen over Alex Galchenyuk (just draft him for god sake you are in charge)
• He was forced to select McCarron/De la rose because of size
• He wanted Samuel Girard but we traded away our 2x 2nd round pick that year.

Grow a spine and get your guy or stop telling bullshit to the media after the fact.

we know that Timmins was high on Giroux since they had him do a special workout before the draft.

CH: de prometteur espoir à grand oublié - TVA Sports

I had very good discussions with the team before the draft. A few weeks before the auction, the Canadians had asked Claude Giroux and me to perform additional tests on the ice.

But whatever the excuse Timmins and his staff f***ed up in a big way. At the time I can understand it as Fischer had the skating, mobility, size but they made a big mistake on his character imo as he even admitted he didn't work hard enough in the NCAA. You can't make mistakes like that but even worse when the kid you don't pick is in your back yard. This is easily one of his worst mistakes that no matter the excuse it doesn't matter.

I don't recall the Jeff Carter talk but to be fair Savard was his boss and had just hired him for the Habs so I can understand not wanting to push things that year if it were the case. I remember that day like it was yesterday and no matter what Savard says I will always believe that he was the one behind the Urquhart pick that year as he was the one that was gushing about him the day of the draft talking about his hands and his playoffs for the Rocket that year. I know I wasn't the only one that day that felt that was a Savard pick but it wasn't an issue at the time as Savard was well liked for coming in and turning around the scouting system and farm in '01.

Doesn't really matter who he wanted in '08 since there was no pick. I don't recall much from that draft other then I know for a fact he was high on Karlsson way before the draft.

'09 I think many will agree that there was a certain pressure being that the draft was at home. Blame the media and fans who would have went ape shit if he drafted Kreider, now I agree if he wanted him and not Leblanc then he should have had the guts to pull the trigger and deal with the outcry. I was told they were looking at Despres, I know that as I remember it very clearly, was the first time I got bad info. After that draft I never wanted the Habs to host the draft again.

I don't know about being forced to draft Tinordi, but it's easy to see that they made a mistake in thinking they had the next Chara or in falling to the pressure of having him kick our ass instead of drafting the best player.

I know he was high on TT but I don't recall hearing he wanted him over Galchenyuk. I really don't have too much problem with that pick at the time other then his skating and the knee injury was a bit risky for a 3rd OA pick. He was handled poorly for sure, who puts a guy that scored 30 goals on the 4th line or on the 3rd line with DLR. But it's on him as well if the stories about the night life are true.

In '13 he's admitted they made a mistake going for size. I believe that's him taking a shot at MB and Churla. It's easy to sit behind a computer and say he should have had the balls to stand up to his new boss but if you love your job and you want to keep it and your new boss just hired his buddy and created a new position for him, clearly he had to see that this would be his replacement. I always say people see what they want and many can't put things into proper context, I blame MB/Churla here more for that shit draft but who knows what really went on since no one seems to really know how much pull does Churla have other then being named Director of Scouting and in fact getting Timmins old job.

It doesn't matter if he liked Girard or not since the pick was traded.

You haven't read the thread thoroughly. It's not a sample of 27 drafted players; It's that out of the 27 players that played in the NHL in 2019-2020, 12 happened to be goaltenders or defensemen.

2019-2020 goals by active players sorted by their original team drafting:
29/30: Minnesota 140
30/30: Montreal 116 (54 of those by pacioretty and Gallagher)


2019-2020 points by active players sorted by their original team drafting:

29/30: Minnesota 403
30/30 Montreal 294

clearly there is a disconnect cause that number is not 12 it's 15, 12 were forwards. I also said I thought you were talking about in general and not just based off this season as I wouldn't just look at one season. Who knew Subban would fall so much, or that Galchenyuk would struggle so badly in Pitt?

If Price was simply average from the start of the season to December, we would have made the playoffs. He was great from January to the end of season, but it just shows you how his game isn't consistent anymore. Galchenyuk isn't a 30+ goalscorer. He hit the 30 goal mark once, which was very clearly an anomaly.

He doesn't have to hope for anything if Caufield, KK and Poehling bust. The GM will still defend him, some fans will still defend him and blame Bergevin and Julien, and 2007 will be brought up again saying how he is capable of doing well.

that's not on Price though as we easily would have made the playoffs if MB just got him a solid backup. Instead Price had to carry the team on his back and get way overused with 66 games while playing in front of a team that really didn't belong in the playoffs. Yet you said he was well below average when that is very much wrong since even with his struggles in the start of the season, he still was one of the best goalies in the league among goalies that played a lot.

As for Galchenyuk yes he's a 30 goal scorer, it's really simple, the question would be did Galchenyuk ever score 30 goals, the answer is yes. So that makes him a 30 goal scorer, no one said it has to be multi seasons. It shows that he had the talent to score goals but was handled so poorly but Julien who prefers the Weal's, Chaput's, of the world.

If Caufield, Kotka and Poehling all bust I hope Molson, MB, Julien and Timmins are all gone. But they way they have handled both Kotka and Poehling shows how stupid Bergevin is and how bad this organization is at development.

 

[SOLR]

No doubt in my mind that he gets extended after Molsons 3-8 year comment.

Don't think so if the habs don't make the playoff next year. The medias are turning on the team already.

 

[montreal]

Don't think so if the habs don't make the playoff next year. The medias are turning on the team already.

I think he at the very least stays on for his full contract, my fear is that he gets extended. The talk about him considering stepping down might end up being our only hope as long as Molson is in charge.

That said next year is a massive one for the organization and our future as we will need to see how the team does as that could have a major impact on the direction of the team since you have Gallagher, Petry, Tatar, Danault, Armia as UFA's at seasons end. Plus whatever happens with Domi's contract, if it's short term or if he gets locked up.

So it should be a very important season followed by one of the biggest off-seasons in our history in terms of how badly it could impact the direction of the club.

 

[Habs Icing]

TEAM	drafted on team	roster #	current	OTHER TEAM	Drafted in NHL
Vegas	0%	22	0	1	1
Colorado	22%	23	5	8	13
Montreal	23%	22	5	11	16
Minnesota	27%	22	6	11	17
Arizona	27%	22	6	13	19
San Jose	28%	25	7	16	23
Ottawa	29%	21	6	18	24
Vancouver	32%	25	8	5	13
Toronto	35%	23	8	14	22
Carolina	36%	22	8	15	23
Buffalo	36%	22	8	18	26
Dallas	38%	24	9	13	22
Florida	38%	24	9	13	22
Pittsburgh	38%	26	10	11	21
Edmonton	38%	26	10	13	23
NYR	39%	23	9	10	19
Tampa	42%	24	10	12	22
Anaheim	42%	24	10	14	24
Chicago	42%	24	10	16	26
NJ	43%	23	10	8	18
boston	46%	24	11	11	22
Detroit	46%	24	11	11	22
Calgary	48%	23	11	5	16
Washington	48%	23	11	13	24
NYI	48%	25	12	9	21
Winnipeg	50%	26	13	6	19
Nashville	50%	24	12	11	23
St Louis	50%	24	12	13	25
Los Angeles	55%	22	12	17	29
Philadelphia	58%	24	14	5	19
Columbus	60%	25	15	9	24

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

That's an interesting chart and it sort of validates my intuition. To have a winning team you need great drafting and great trading. Duh! To win you can't have one and not the other.

If you look at the teams with 50% or more of their picks on the team, only St Louis has won the cup lately and Philly appears to be on the rise. If you go further down (or up) the list you see Washington at 48%. Calgary at 48%. Boston at 46%. Tampa at 42%. Colorado and T.O. seem to be the only ones with the lowest % and still have a decent team.

It's obvious if you have a great trading GM and a lousy scouting staff, you're going nowhere. And the reverse is just as true. With Montreal we've had a very good trading GM with atrocious drafting.

The one thing I take away from that chart is that TT should be fired before MB. Despite his horrendous lack of team building vision, MB has been turning TT's crap into gold (ex. Galchenyuk to Domi). Okay, maybe not gold but definitely silver.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

I wanted him back at the deadline. His trade value was low. He still may be able to turn his career around.

But I judge a draft long term. So will need more time to judge that draft.

The thing is, Stepane Leroux was reporting Timmins was high on Forsberg snd Terrevainen heading into the draft. When asked recently about that draft, Timmins said "we were looking for a center" and dismissed the possibility of taking Forsberg. I don't know if it's MB's decision to go for need or Timmins' or both. But I don't like it one iota. Hope it doesn't cost us yet again with kk.

Might be Molson. From everything I've read and could infer, Molson is very involved in the operations of the habs. All he has to say is, get me an elite center, and both are overrided.

I was high on all three (AG, FF, TT, not Rielly) and no one could really predict which of the four would be better.

Thing is, no matter where you want to put the blame, Bergevin could've had both AG and TT later on, but instead got Shaw.

It's a cluster**** of bad management which starts at the very top and trickles down to the whole organization. An institution's values and ideals are as good or bad as its leader's vision.

Look no further than Molson to understand why we're in this mess.

Drafting took a turn for the worst ever since he arrived.

Same for development.

Same for management.

 

[montreal]

Might be Molson. From everything I've read and could infer, Molson is very involved in the operations of the habs. All he has to say is, get me an elite center, and both are overrided.

I was high on all three (AG, FF, TT, not Rielly) and no one could really predict which of the four would be better.

Thing is, no matter where you want to put the blame, Bergevin could've had both AG and TT later on, but instead got Shaw.

It's a cluster**** of bad management which starts at the very top and trickles down to the whole organization. An institution's values and ideals are as good or bad as its leader's vision.

Look no further than Molson to understand why we're in this mess.

Drafting took a turn for the worst ever since he arrived.

Same for development.

Same for management.

well said. the scary part is I really don't see much hope in things changing. I posted above about how the only hope I have will be what happens next year and into next off-season with how that plays out.

 

[montreal]

The one thing I will add is if you think Timmins is the worst thing going for the Habs, which I can understand as you have to hit on your 1st round picks and he's just made too many mistakes there that he clearly hasn't been helped any in the MB era. But even if you believe in development and coaching being important as I do, that still doesn't let Timmins and his staff off the hook, it just puts things in context.

That said though, drafting is one part, so if he is the worst then the guy who promoted him and is in charge of all the parts is clearly the worst part because it shows how incompetent he is because instead of seeing the problem he promoted the guy which then makes you wonder about his decisions in the rest of the departments.

Personally I think it starts at the very top, once Molson went public with the up to 8 years to contend bullshit then I knew we could be f***ed for a long time with this clown owning the team and allowing MB to get away with this shit. So for me Molson is the worst followed by MB. I put Timmins after Julien, so if he goes then so be it as long as Molson, MB and Julien are gone.

 

[McGees]

This is part of the reason I didn’t bother with this site for a year. Thanks for the contribution.

Well I was laughing because I find it funny when people
A) give up on a 19 year old
B) make nonsense claims about 'idiot scouting and not picking 2nd rounders.'

Please go look at league averages of 2nd round players actually making it to the NHL. Then go look at how many 2nd rounders we traded away and even get to select over the years. Then go look up PK Subban, Lehkonen and soon to be Struble, Ylonen and Romanov and how they are misses.

'The problem isn’t Askarov, it’s the idiot that is the head of scouting that keeps missing and can’t even successfully pick someone at 3rd overall - not to mention failed 2nd rounder after failed 2nd rounder.'

 

[le_sean]

Well I was laughing because I find it funny when people
A) give up on a 19 year old
B) make nonsense claims about 'idiot scouting and not picking 2nd rounders.'

Please go look at league averages of 2nd round players actually making it to the NHL. Then go look at how many 2nd rounders we traded away and even get to select over the years. Then go look up PK Subban, Lehkonen and soon to be Struble, Ylonen and Romanov and how they are misses.

'The problem isn’t Askarov, it’s the idiot that is the head of scouting that keeps missing and can’t even successfully pick someone at 3rd overall - not to mention failed 2nd rounder after failed 2nd rounder.'

I was talking about Galchenyuk clearly not being a good pick and Kotkaniemi, both 3rd overall picks. I haven’t given up hope on Kotkaniemi, but there were better players taken after, as of today. No denying that.

And you’re giving Timmins credit for P.K. who was picked 13 years ago. Lehkonen is a 3rd liner. The others you have mentioned are not in the NHL so there’s no point in talking about them.

So one good 2nd rounder and an okay 2nd rounder since 2007. You’re going to somehow convince me that’s good? Notice I haven’t even brought up all of the other failed Habs 1st rounders since 2007.

 

[McGees]

I was talking about Galchenyuk clearly not being a good pick and Kotkaniemi, both 3rd overall picks. I haven’t given up hope on Kotkaniemi, but there were better players taken after, as of today. No denying that.

And you’re giving Timmins credit for P.K. who was picked 13 years ago. Lehkonen is a 3rd liner. The others you have mentioned are not in the NHL so there’s no point in talking about them.

So one good 2nd rounder and an okay 2nd rounder since 2007. You’re going to somehow convince me that’s good? Notice I haven’t even brought up all of the other failed Habs 1st rounders since 2007.

Not all drafts are created equal and unfortunately the very few times we've picked high in the last 15 years, haven't been great drafts.
Galchenyuk still turned out better than 80% of the top 15 including 4 of the top 5.

Of course I have to go back to years of PK
- You don't want to count the almost surefire blue-chip hopefuls we have from the last 3 years
- We didn't have picks for the the 3 years before that so can't count those
- The year before that we got Lehkonen and De La Rose who are both NHLers (most 2nd rounders don't make the NHL FYI)
- 3 of the previous 5 years we again didn't have a 2nd round pick so can't count those
- Then there was the PK pick!

So yes if you want to name the bad 2nd round picks, there were 5 or 6 in the last dozen years (which surprise surprise is at the very minimum league average for 2nd round picks that make the NHL)

Please go learn about draft odds - your anger is misplaced.

 

[Locks]

I was talking about Galchenyuk clearly not being a good pick and Kotkaniemi, both 3rd overall picks. I haven’t given up hope on Kotkaniemi, but there were better players taken after, as of today. No denying that.

And you’re giving Timmins credit for P.K. who was picked 13 years ago. Lehkonen is a 3rd liner. The others you have mentioned are not in the NHL so there’s no point in talking about them.

So one good 2nd rounder and an okay 2nd rounder since 2007. You’re going to somehow convince me that’s good? Notice I haven’t even brought up all of the other failed Habs 1st rounders since 2007.

This topic likely belongs in the Timmins thread that I rarely visit but I have to answer this post. First, it is way too premature to talk about better players. I don't remember last year too many people talked about better players when Tkachuk who was a year older, physically mature, played top 6 right off the bat with some dude named Mark Stone and had similar production as KK who played 12 minutes on the third line. And Q. Hughes, also almost a year older, played in NCAA and had a atrocious WJC where he posted measly 2 assists and was a defensive liability. I am actually going to make a more detailed KK post in the proper thread hopefully soon, please check it out. And most of the time there could be better players taken but as long the player is good enough for the draft position and meets the expectations it works out well for the team.

And a little hint about the second rounders. Please check how many second rounders the team actually had on draft day before 2017. Yes, Timmins made mistakes, no question about that, just like his counterparts on other teams made, but it is odd to pick on KK or second rounders that he barely had any before 2017 or had them in very poor draft years (2012-2013) as examples of TT's misses.

 

[crosbyshow]

I remember so well at the time almost everybody here did not wanted Tkachuk. I was part of it also.

My choice was Hughes...and ouf..he was not populaire either

 

[The Great Weal]

that's not on Price though as we easily would have made the playoffs if MB just got him a solid backup. Instead Price had to carry the team on his back and get way overused with 66 games while playing in front of a team that really didn't belong in the playoffs. Yet you said he was well below average when that is very much wrong since even with his struggles in the start of the season, he still was one of the best goalies in the league among goalies that played a lot.

As for Galchenyuk yes he's a 30 goal scorer, it's really simple, the question would be did Galchenyuk ever score 30 goals, the answer is yes. So that makes him a 30 goal scorer, no one said it has to be multi seasons. It shows that he had the talent to score goals but was handled so poorly but Julien who prefers the Weal's, Chaput's, of the world.

If Caufield, Kotka and Poehling all bust I hope Molson, MB, Julien and Timmins are all gone. But they way they have handled both Kotka and Poehling shows how stupid Bergevin is and how bad this organization is at development.

Price's abysmal performance up to January was part of the reason why we missed the playoffs. He was barely doing better than Niemi, and that was for 30 games. No excuses there. I said he was below average for the past 3 years, one great half a season from January to the end of season doesn't mean much. He's got the 22nd best save percentage in the league for starters since 2017, so that makes him well below average. A shitty defense shouldn't make the best goalie in the world and Vezina candidate turned into a below average goalie.

Being a 30 goalscorer implies that the player is capable of of scoring 30 goals for a couple of seasons and not a one time thing half a decade ago. Galchenyuk has scored over 20 goals ONCE in his career, it's very clearly an anomaly and therefore calling him a 30 goalscorer is unjust, especially with how shitty he is now. It actually shows that he simply doesn't have the brains to display his talent consistently. Otherwise, he wouldn't have been dumped by 2 teams because they thought he sucks. The guy went from a good top 6 forward to a bum and you still blame Julien instead of acknowledging that Galchenyuk is mostly responsible for his horrendous performance. He's just not a smart enough player. Scotty Bowman couldn't have even turned him into a 1st line center.

The way that Timmins said that he's concerned with Quinn Hughes size shows how stupid he is when the roster if already full of small players and gambled on a project at 3rd overall. Development is a major issue, but developing more 4th liners and bottom pairing dmen that Timmins "gifted" us won't make us go anywhere. Sly already got axed(deservedly so) and there is still no optimism. Poehling forgot how to play hockey and has been pouting. KK apparently can't take criticism from the coaches. Different coach, same problem, Timmins is has held this team back so much. A new GM that keeps this dumbass in charge will still get no results. Zero 70+ point players since 2003, a team drafted by Timmins would be bottom 5 in the league. Bergevin absolutely needs to be the first to go, keeping Timmins in charge should be a crime.

 

[Habs Icing]

Well I was laughing because I find it funny when people
A) give up on a 19 year old
B) make nonsense claims about 'idiot scouting and not picking 2nd rounders.'

Please go look at league averages of 2nd round players actually making it to the NHL. Then go look at how many 2nd rounders we traded away and even get to select over the years. Then go look up PK Subban, Lehkonen and soon to be Struble, Ylonen and Romanov and how they are misses.

Timmins has been here since '03 so if you have to add Struble, Ylonen and Romonov to Timmins list of 2nd round successes then your argument is full of holes. Especially since those players haven't played a game in the NHL and you only mentioned PK and Lehkonen who have played. After 16 years if you really think that's an admirable record then you deserve the team you've been getting.

 

[montreal]

Price's abysmal performance up to January was part of the reason why we missed the playoffs. He was barely doing better than Niemi, and that was for 30 games. No excuses there. I said he was below average for the past 3 years, one great half a season from January to the end of season doesn't mean much. He's got the 22nd best save percentage in the league for starters since 2017, so that makes him well below average. A shitty defense shouldn't make the best goalie in the world and Vezina candidate turned into a below average goalie.

Being a 30 goalscorer implies that the player is capable of of scoring 30 goals for a couple of seasons and not a one time thing half a decade ago. Galchenyuk has scored over 20 goals ONCE in his career, it's very clearly an anomaly and therefore calling him a 30 goalscorer is unjust, especially with how shitty he is now. It actually shows that he simply doesn't have the brains to display his talent consistently. Otherwise, he wouldn't have been dumped by 2 teams because they thought he sucks. The guy went from a good top 6 forward to a bum and you still blame Julien instead of acknowledging that Galchenyuk is mostly responsible for his horrendous performance. He's just not a smart enough player. Scotty Bowman couldn't have even turned him into a 1st line center.

The way that Timmins said that he's concerned with Quinn Hughes size shows how stupid he is when the roster if already full of small players and gambled on a project at 3rd overall. Development is a major issue, but developing more 4th liners and bottom pairing dmen that Timmins "gifted" us won't make us go anywhere. Sly already got axed(deservedly so) and there is still no optimism. Poehling forgot how to play hockey and has been pouting. KK apparently can't take criticism from the coaches. Different coach, same problem, Timmins is has held this team back so much. A new GM that keeps this dumbass in charge will still get no results. Zero 70+ point players since 2003, a team drafted by Timmins would be bottom 5 in the league. Bergevin absolutely needs to be the first to go, keeping Timmins in charge should be a crime.

again it's just incorrect, Price ended up last year as one of the best goalies in the league when compared with goalies that played a high number of games. That shows that he was able to put up solid numbers in front of a weak team and defense while also dealing with the wear and tear of playing so damn much, only one goalie in the league played more games then Price and it was 1 more game. Among goalies that played 60 or more games Price had the best save % and gaa.

Elite Prospects - NHL Stats 2018-2019

So clearly last year he was not the problem or else his numbers over 66 games wouldn't be the best among goalies with 60 or more starts or among the best with goalies with 50 or more starts. That's at least 1 of the 3 years, I didn't pay attention to him this year or the Habs so I can't really say. I'd have to look at the numbers for 3 years ago but didn't feel like it.

Has Galchenyuk ever scored 30 goals? Yes then he's a 30 goal scorer. It's not complicated. Has he scored multi 30 goal seasons, No. End of story there

We'll see what happens as Timmins, MB, Molson, Julien, not of them seem to be going anywhere. The system is looking good for blueliners for sure, which is Timmins strength. Galchenyuk should have been better, but it could be the off-ice problems have impacted him. We'll see if he can keep it up with the Wild or not. The Habs must hit on Kotka, who so many on this board wanted at the draft.

 

[DAChampion]

Price's abysmal performance up to January was part of the reason why we missed the playoffs. He was barely doing better than Niemi, and that was for 30 games. No excuses there. I said he was below average for the past 3 years, one great half a season from January to the end of season doesn't mean much. He's got the 22nd best save percentage in the league for starters since 2017, so that makes him well below average. A shitty defense shouldn't make the best goalie in the world and Vezina candidate turned into a below average goalie.

Being a 30 goalscorer implies that the player is capable of of scoring 30 goals for a couple of seasons and not a one time thing half a decade ago. Galchenyuk has scored over 20 goals ONCE in his career, it's very clearly an anomaly and therefore calling him a 30 goalscorer is unjust, especially with how shitty he is now. It actually shows that he simply doesn't have the brains to display his talent consistently. Otherwise, he wouldn't have been dumped by 2 teams because they thought he sucks. The guy went from a good top 6 forward to a bum and you still blame Julien instead of acknowledging that Galchenyuk is mostly responsible for his horrendous performance. He's just not a smart enough player. Scotty Bowman couldn't have even turned him into a 1st line center.

The way that Timmins said that he's concerned with Quinn Hughes size shows how stupid he is when the roster if already full of small players and gambled on a project at 3rd overall. Development is a major issue, but developing more 4th liners and bottom pairing dmen that Timmins "gifted" us won't make us go anywhere. Sly already got axed(deservedly so) and there is still no optimism. Poehling forgot how to play hockey and has been pouting. KK apparently can't take criticism from the coaches. Different coach, same problem, Timmins is has held this team back so much. A new GM that keeps this dumbass in charge will still get no results. Zero 70+ point players since 2003, a team drafted by Timmins would be bottom 5 in the league. Bergevin absolutely needs to be the first to go, keeping Timmins in charge should be a crime.

There's a lot of value here, but I do have a few objections.

1) Price playing 70 games a year and not succeeding at it is not on Price and not on Timmins. It's on Bergevin and Julien. The goalie should simply not be playing that many games in a year. Price is also overpaid, but that is also on Bergevin. He's simply not the elite goaltender that he once was, but Bergevin treated him as such based on ... I don't even know.

There is probably not a lot that Price can do to be better. Independently of the fact that he has accumulated several substantial injuries, he is a month shy of 33 years old. His body is in an advancing state of physiological decay, and he probably no longer has elite potential. For example, it is well known that the speed of reflexes slow with age. There is nothing that Price can do about it. He will never be as fast and as quick as when he was 25.

The aging process is the one force that eventually defeats every single athlete.

2) The stuff about Kotkaniemi not listening to his coaches was in Montreal, where the coaches were playing him ten minutes a game and he was not progressing. He was improving drastically and consistently in Laval, at both ends of the ice. He showed some excellent vision and forechecking ability. You neglect some of the positive things that Bouchard said about him. Don't you think that you'd be more balanced in including both the critical and approving comments?

You should also acknowledge that just the fact that Kotkaniemi improved in Laval is great. I honestly suspect that he would have been the third line center down there if Sylvain Lefebvre had been the coach, and perhaps he would have been bounced around playing different positions.

 

[JeffreyLFC]

Kotkaniemi cannot be labeled a bust yet.. He was a project when he was drafted and it's now obvious he should not have been rushed to the NHL. That being said I feel he would be in great hands in Laval and hopefully progress there.

As for who we should have pick, for the first 2 years we could say Tkachuk or Quinn Hughes but in 4 or 5 years from now we could say a different name.. The thing that standout to me is that the top 10 of that draft look a bit pale compared to their projection as of now.

Back on Timmins, He has been here for 17 years, in term of hockey that's a lot of time. I have no particular desire to see him go but he has been in charge for almost 2 decades and yet we still have never been able to find a decent center and one legit top line forward (Pacioretty). That is very worrisome. I am no amateur scout but I would definitely question my methodology, personnel and strategy because that is a very bad record and from the top of my head I assume that all NHL teams have drafted over that span at least one forward with 70+ pts. Even the notoriously bad drafting teams like Calgary and Vancouver.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Kotkaniemi cannot be labeled a bust yet.. He was a project when he was drafted and it's now obvious he should not have been rushed to the NHL. That being said I feel he would be in great hands in Laval and hopefully progress there.

As for who we should have pick, for the first 2 years we could say Tkachuk or Quinn Hughes but in 4 or 5 years from now we could say a different name.. The thing that standout to me is that the top 10 of that draft look a bit pale compared to their projection as of now.

Back on Timmins, He has been here for 17 years, in term of hockey that's a lot of time. I have no particular desire to see him go but he has been in charge for almost 2 decades and yet we still have never been able to find a decent center and one legit top line forward (Pacioretty). That is very worrisome. I am no amateur scout but I would definitely question my methodology, personnel and strategy because that is a very bad record and from the top of my head I assume that all NHL teams have drafted over that span at least one forward with 70+ pts. Even the notoriously bad drafting teams like Calgary and Vancouver.

Got to pick in the top 10 frequently in order to hit on a star at center IMO. Cause how many stars at center were there from 11+ in the last 17 years? I'll let you count them and get back to me. Pretty sure that list is low and the ones who hit, got lucky. 17 years x 20 picks (from 11-30) = 340 prospects. I wonder how many impact centers are there out of 340? Curious. 2003 below seems like we missed opportunity.

- 2003: Kostitsyn vs J Carter, Getlaf, M Richards
- 2005: Price vs Kopitar
- 2016: Sergachev vs ?
- 2018: Kotkaniemi vs ?
- 2019: Caufield vs Newhook?

Timmins has spans where he did very well (05-07 and 17-19) and some spans where he didn't do so well (12-15). And there is this 4 year black hole from 08-11 that's not on him cause of bottom of the league draft power. This is a huge problem today cause they would be Gallagher's age and that's why we have so many holes. 12/13 were major disappointments which didn't help us recover at all

12-15 years are the ones where he deserves heat IMO. Right time to fire him was in 2015. Because we didn't, it gave him time to recover. Now we have to wait to see how the 17+ prospects turn out.

 

[JeffreyLFC]

..

From the top of my head and without looking more into it here are the centers we could have drafted:

Giroux, O'reilly, Aho, Kuznetsov, Point, Bergeron, Karlsson

And stop with the lucky argument, they are professional scouts and they spend 365 days (or so) as a team to evaluate a list of candidate of around 500 players. They also have the help of psychologist, therapist, doctors, trainers. They are well equipped to make wise decisions. They don't just pick up name from a hat. It is not always easy to watch some obscure high schooler but they have the resource to do it and more certainly a couple million in budget to operate.

We have been repeated Ad-nausea through the years that we can only get good center through the draft and somehow we have not figured it out yet.

I mean let's look at our list of center drafted in the first round and where are they now:
Chipchura, Leblanc, Galchenyuk, McCarron, Poehling, Kotkaniemi

4 are out of the organization, only one of these 4 is still in the NHL (Galchenyuk) and he is making a good case of being out if he does not pick up his play. The other 2 that are still in the organization are Poehling and Kotkaniemi, both have had a hard time standing out the past year. Our best center have been acquired through trades: Domi, Danault, Suzuki and Eller.