Trevor Timmins Discussion (Part 10)

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abo9

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Jun 25, 2017
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If we repeat it long enough we start to believe it.

Great players will shine irregardless of who their coach is.

If a coach does not give them ice time or quality linemates, then a great player will make it blatantly obvious that they deserve more ice time and better linemates.

The only thing that holds great players back are NOT having other complimentary great players to play along with.

Galchenyuk is useless and always be useless, because he is not a great player. He is a low IQ player that can't skate.

Stop projecting the same fate on KK.


Were you holding the same discourse about Galchenyuk being useless when he had a 30 goals 56 points season as a 21 years old? Btw Galchenyuk was in our top 3 best scorers for 3 years straight between 21 and 23 years old.

Obviously he was a crappy player from the start lol
 

yianik

Registered User
Jun 30, 2009
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I'm pretty sure Maxwell was considered the more skilled player then Marchand back then. Marchand didn't even make the U-18 his draft year whereas Maxwell did and was a PPG player in that tournament. And if you don't like that example take Collberg, Beaulieu, Andre Kostitsyn were all considered high skilled picks who dropped for various reasons much like Caufield did.

It's never about one attribute over another, everything has to be considered. Drafting based purely on skill will give you just as many busts/disappointments as drafting on size.

See I am fine with the Colbert, Kostitsyn and Beaulieu picks. These players had skill and upside, but mostly didn't pan out. The way I look at it though is if you take 10 high skill guys like AK46, it will give you busts, middle 6 guys but also top 6 players, like AK 46, and a couple top line players. But if you take 10 Tinordis you get busts, a bunch of bottom pair guys and a couple no.4 D men.

So I go for the skill and upside because you need top end players more than role players. And when I say skill players, it does not mean size, tenacity, mean streaks are not factors to look for. But for me, skill is key.
 
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Habs

We should have drafted Michkov
Feb 28, 2002
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Not a coaching issue.

But are you suggesting we have had solid coaching, for the teams we have had in place? I never thought CJ was a good coach for a young team, nor was Therrien. Ducharme makes such boneheaded decisions, I have no faith in him either. I really don't think we have had a good coach since AV to be honest.
 

DAChampion

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May 28, 2011
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But are you suggesting we have had solid coaching, for the teams we have had in place? I never thought CJ was a good coach for a young team, nor was Therrien. Ducharme makes such boneheaded decisions, I have no faith in him either. I really don't think we have had a good coach since AV to be honest.

Jacques Martin was a good coach in my opinion.
 

WinterLion

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Oct 1, 2017
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No we just expect them to get the BPA in the draft when that rare top 3 pick event happens. And if you can't get it right, take a hike , nobody cares about previous picks, can't live off the glory forever.


Yeah exactly. My problem with that is everyone talks about the guys that we could have taken that have worked out better, while nobody says well at least we didn't take Barrett Hayton or Oliver Wahlstrom or Filip Zadina like many of the same posters wanted at the time.

At the moments people are saying why didn't we take Tchachuk or Hughes but if they have a bad year it will switch to the flavour of the month.

Look at the Galchenyuk draft as an example. Was it a bad pick? Meh could have been better could have been worse but overall it's average. There isn't anybody in there that really would turn us into a contender and it certainly could have been worse. Would you trade Anderson for the chance to pick one of those players out of a hat? The Kotkienemi draft might end up being the same. Most #3 picks don't live up to the hype, but become solid players...

11EdmontonNail YakupovRSarnia Sting [OHL]35062741361422017-18
12ColumbusRyan MurrayDEverett Silvertips [WHL]395151091241122020-21
13MontrealAlex GalchenyukCSarnia Sting [OHL]5821401923322212020-21
14NY IslandersGriffin ReinhartDEdmonton Oil Kings [WHL]37022262016-17
15TorontoMorgan RiellyDMoose Jaw Warriors [WHL]571592453041392020-21
16AnaheimHampus LindholmDRogle BK Angelholm [Swe-1]521521482002722020-21
17MinnesotaMatt DumbaDRed Deer Rebels [WHL]462681271952712020-21
18PittsburghDerrick PouliotDPortland Winterhawks [WHL]20284048812019-20
19WinnipegJacob TroubaDU.S. National Development Team [USHL]516511672183802020-21
110Tampa BaySlater Koekkoek
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
 
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Gaylord Q Tinkledink

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Apr 29, 2018
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Timmins has been here for a while.

If you look at the team, our best players have been players the habs didn't draft, or were drafted 10+ years ago.

This team can't draft and can't develop, but we're the organization with the most picks for the past few years.

Timmins consistently goes to USHS and what have we got to show for it ?

Even if we make it out of the first round, you gotta clean house.

It's easier to keep the names of people you're not going to fire than list those you are.
 

Pat Riot

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Sep 30, 2017
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Timmins has been here for a while.

If you look at the team, our best players have been players the habs didn't draft, or were drafted 10+ years ago.

This team can't draft and can't develop, but we're the organization with the most picks for the past few years.

Timmins consistently goes to USHS and what have we got to show for it ?

Even if we make it out of the first round, you gotta clean house.

It's easier to keep the names of people you're not going to fire than list those you are.

complete overhaul plus repaint the whole place to wash away the stench of the old organisation.

Cant explain why timmins is still calling shots after so many bad picks over the years.
 

salbutera

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Sep 10, 2019
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Were you holding the same discourse about Galchenyuk being useless when he had a 30 goals 56 points season as a 21 years old? Btw Galchenyuk was in our top 3 best scorers for 3 years straight between 21 and 23 years old.

Obviously he was a crappy player from the start lol
I thought it was a mirage - Galchenyuk took off post-Xmas during 2015-2016 season when Habs were already out of it and playing meaningless games.

Even while scoring 30G (heavily PP skewed), his defensive awareness was no better than his rookie season, which showed very poor ability to learn & digest information
 

DAChampion

Registered User
May 28, 2011
29,782
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I thought it was a mirage - Galchenyuk took off post-Xmas during 2015-2016 season when Habs were already out of it and playing meaningless games.

Even while scoring 30G (heavily PP skewed), his defensive awareness was no better than his rookie season, which showed very poor ability to learn & digest information

Galchenyuk's best season was as a rookie. In that year he scored all but one of his points at even strength.
 

Whitesnake

If you rebuild, they will come.
Jan 5, 2003
89,202
36,190
Pacioretty, Gallagher are the only first-liners drafted by Timmins in 17 drafts. 9 years went by between Gally and Caufield, who's too fresh to be counted yet. So, 1 elite forward every 8.5 years.

McDonagh, Subban and Sergachev are the only top-pairing defensemen drafted by Timmins. Two the same year, and 9 years between them and Sergachev.
1 elite D every 5.6 years.

Price was 15 drafts ago.
1 elite goaltender in 17 years

6 elite players drafted in 17 years. It takes Timmins on average almost 3 drafts to pick an elite player (2.8333)

IMO, it's not atrocious. But that's not the goal, is it? The goal is to be good. For me, once every 2 drafts would be satisfying. But even then, in reality, it's not spread this way. His 2007 draft greatly contributes to the average I pointed out by giving us half of the 6 players, and it was 13 years ago. The 2010s have been terrible and that's with 3 top-10 pick, two of which were 3rd overall.
1 elite player since Gallagher, a decade ago.
And the term elite is very generous here.

And in today's era, you need to be more regular. 'Cause you are losing players earlier because of the cap. The 2007 draft is the anomaly. And is the one that changes quite a few people perception of Timmins work. And I have to admit...mine included at some point. Until I woke up. Yep, development is not ideal. But where I will ALWAYS disagree with people who put more emphasis on develoment is that I will never believe that we missed a top end player because of development. There are no proofs that we did. NOBODY from the Habs went from being bad with us to incredible with another team. Some will advocate that they could not 'cause we DESTROYED them and yet, there are TONS of example of players who went from being bad with one team and great with a new one. Or they will use examples of players like Galchenyuk who was on his way to stardom until we successfully stopped him from going there.....but then, it happend to quite a few players. Some thought Tanner Pearson and his 24 goals at 24 years old was a start and then it went downhill though a small resurgence last year. Anthony Mantha...24 goals at 23 years old and now...going downhill even after his hot start in WAshington it cooled down a lot. Some players will just skyrocket their progression early in their career and be out of it around 30.

But then, guys like William Karlsson...who didn't seem like a whole lot in Columbus exploded with Vegas. Blake Wheeler who some thought was a victim of Julien...well maybe he was but it didn't stop him from playing much better after he was traded. Patrick Sharp....wasn't destroyed after a tough Philly few years...became a top player with the Hawks....Tyler Seguin....and so many others.

I know one thing.....Timmins and the management says that centerman is something you can't acquire through trades and that you need to draft them. Well the best centerman he drafted was Mikhail Grabovski. And Clearly, the last best centerman we drafted was Tomas Plekanec....in 2002. Before Timmins.
 

Whitesnake

If you rebuild, they will come.
Jan 5, 2003
89,202
36,190
Galchenyuk's best season was as a rookie. In that year he scored all but one of his points at even strength.

How was it his best season? And then, even if it was true because you are going with PPG ratio, and solely that (not the overall game), well it's often the case as the opposition don't pay much attention to you.

Unless....you are an exceptional. Where year 1, year 2, year 3 or year 10 doesn't matter. That draft wasn't filled with exceptionals. One of the worst draft ever.
 
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DAChampion

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May 28, 2011
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How was it his best season? And then, even if it was true because you are going with PPG ratio, and solely that (not the overall game), well it's often the case as the opposition don't pay much attention to you.

Unless....you are an exceptional. Where year 1, year 2, year 3 or year 10 doesn't matter. That draft wasn't filled with exceptionals. One of the worst draft ever.

Galchenyuk's performance in his rookie year we exceptional. Look up his even strength production per time on ice. It was *very* high.

For that matter so was Kotkaniemi's until they acquired the great Nate Thompson.

Do you notice a pattern?
 

Whitesnake

If you rebuild, they will come.
Jan 5, 2003
89,202
36,190
Galchenyuk's performance in his rookie year we exceptional. Look up his even strength production per time on ice. It was *very* high.

For that matter so was Kotkaniemi's until they acquired the great Nate Thompson.

Do you notice a pattern?

True. Extremely high. But on a 48-game season. No time for a rookie to hit any kind of wall with such a short season. But 2.85. is really high indeed. I've compared him with every rookie since 2011 and he is 4th. Really impressive indeed. But Marko Dano is 7th. At 2.69 in 35 games. And he wasn't able to sustain that. Cory Conacher is 8th and at 2.66 in 47 games and wasn't able to keep that either. Jake Debrush is further...at 21. But what happened with him?

Jake Guentzel is 1st. And is still rocking. Hard. Aside from his tougher 2nd season, he is over a PPG in the last 2 years and the other year he isn't, he had 76 freakin points. Still...his rookie season is his best (with 19-20) as far as that stats is concerned. He is 39 and 40 amongst every player. Hi season of 76 points in 82 games put him in 91st position with 2.67.

So what does it mean? Frankly, it means it went well for Galchy. A rookie. As it is for some other rookies. As it probably is when your team is not competing for anything. See, I think losing Mete for nothing was stupid. And we needed, not him, but the kid of d-man he was. Now...he's playing 25 minutes with Ottawa, and people think he's a surefire top 4 d-man forever. But then..isn't that easier when your team is not expecting to do anything?
 

26Mats

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Jun 23, 2018
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complete overhaul plus repaint the whole place to wash away the stench of the old organisation.

Cant explain why timmins is still calling shots after so many bad picks over the years.


Every scout will have tons and tons of bad picks.

It's the inability to get the few high quality gems - at forward - that I have a problem with. Because I think his record is good on D and in Goal, I would keep him on the scouting team, but replace him as head scout. I know this is unlikely. But it's what I'd like. But no way do I want him having last say on forwards. And they need to stop this strategy of drafting for need. At equal talent, ok. But never sacrifice talent.
 
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26Mats

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Jun 23, 2018
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I thought it was a mirage - Galchenyuk took off post-Xmas during 2015-2016 season when Habs were already out of it and playing meaningless games.

Even while scoring 30G (heavily PP skewed), his defensive awareness was no better than his rookie season, which showed very poor ability to learn & digest information


I think Galchenyuk was more suited for the NHL of the time when he was drafted and first started out. When the nhl started enforcing hooking to the hands and other rules, and the game opened up, players who weren't the greatest skaters became less effective, and some, like Lucic, totally ineffective.
 
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Habs

We should have drafted Michkov
Feb 28, 2002
20,946
14,144
Yeah exactly. My problem with that is everyone talks about the guys that we could have taken that have worked out better, while nobody says well at least we didn't take Barrett Hayton or Oliver Wahlstrom or Filip Zadina like many of the same posters wanted at the time.

At the moments people are saying why didn't we take Tchachuk or Hughes but if they have a bad year it will switch to the flavour of the month.

Look at the Galchenyuk draft as an example. Was it a bad pick? Meh could have been better could have been worse but overall it's average. There isn't anybody in there that really would turn us into a contender and it certainly could have been worse. Would you trade Anderson for the chance to pick one of those players out of a hat? The Kotkienemi draft might end up being the same. Most #3 picks don't live up to the hype, but become solid players...

11EdmontonNail YakupovRSarnia Sting [OHL]35062741361422017-18
12ColumbusRyan MurrayDEverett Silvertips [WHL]395151091241122020-21
13MontrealAlex GalchenyukCSarnia Sting [OHL]5821401923322212020-21
14NY IslandersGriffin ReinhartDEdmonton Oil Kings [WHL]37022262016-17
15TorontoMorgan RiellyDMoose Jaw Warriors [WHL]571592453041392020-21
16AnaheimHampus LindholmDRogle BK Angelholm [Swe-1]521521482002722020-21
17MinnesotaMatt DumbaDRed Deer Rebels [WHL]462681271952712020-21
18PittsburghDerrick PouliotDPortland Winterhawks [WHL]20284048812019-20
19WinnipegJacob TroubaDU.S. National Development Team [USHL]516511672183802020-21
110Tampa BaySlater Koekkoek
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

I wanted Tkachuk or Zadina, I still think Zadina can be a solid player, Detroit is developing him properly. I just don't like how they took a C to fill a need, instead of BPA. I know you can't always walk out of the draft with the best player but it sure didn't look like a hard choice @ 3 who to pick out of these two players, and it should have been Tkachuk 9 times out of 10. The Sens are going to have their rebuild almost done in 3 years, Montreal will sputter in mediocrity with no changes to be made anywhere in scouting or management.
 

Habs

We should have drafted Michkov
Feb 28, 2002
20,946
14,144
Jacques Martin was a good coach in my opinion.

The thing I never liked about Jaques is he never liked physical hockey, or players and would dress a team that was pummeled physical any given night. He also was stuck on a very defensive system
 

WinterLion

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Oct 1, 2017
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I wanted Tkachuk or Zadina, I still think Zadina can be a solid player, Detroit is developing him properly. I just don't like how they took a C to fill a need, instead of BPA. I know you can't always walk out of the draft with the best player but it sure didn't look like a hard choice @ 3 who to pick out of these two players, and it should have been Tkachuk 9 times out of 10. The Sens are going to have their rebuild almost done in 3 years, Montreal will sputter in mediocrity with no changes to be made anywhere in scouting or management.

OK, but that is not addressing my point which is that it could have gone worse and we always look back and imagine taking the best guys... but at the time of those same people, many wanted Kotkienemi or worse.

To your point, I don't agree that Ottawa is a show in to become a great team again. They have some good young players but they may have some more bumpy roads. As for the Habs... they have a good group of emerging young players. Of course the big question is.... how good? Oh and how long can Cary Price be effective (if at all....)
 

yianik

Registered User
Jun 30, 2009
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We have no consistent drafting strategy.

A few years ago TT said that the Habs were going to draft in the currency of the NHL, which was PMDs and Cs. This made sense. Couple of teams deep in PMDs like Carolina have been able to make big trades. LA I deep in top C prospects, they could make a couple big moves if they want.

But that was one draft.

Another year was size and meaness. An idiotic approach.

Another year CHaracter. Sigh.

Another year potential.

I don't get it. These are hockey people. How is it not the case that always at core, it's talent. Skating, shot, IQ, vision, stick handling. Skill. Always. Not saying size, character, work ethic not considerations, but skill tops everything, then look at the other things.

This approach in the higher rounds anyway and damn sure the 1st.
 
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yianik

Registered User
Jun 30, 2009
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The thing I never liked about Jaques is he never liked physical hockey, or players and would dress a team that was pummeled physical any given night. He also was stuck on a very defensive system

I hated Martin. Absolutely hated the guy. Square hole, he would insist the round peg go in.

In one of the worst things I have ever seen a coach do. Ak46 started off a year really well and Martin was asked about it. His response, " contract year". Jack ass. Completely uncalled for and just alienating your player. He plays bad, you nail him, he plays good, nail him. No win scenario.

We actually had some talented young guys back then , I think the likes of the Kostitsyn Brothers and Tender would have done better with another coach.
 

26Mats

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Jun 23, 2018
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I hated Martin. Absolutely hated the guy. Square hole, he would insist the round peg go in.

In one of the worst things I have ever seen a coach do. Ak46 started off a year really well and Martin was asked about it. His response, " contract year". Jack ass. Completely uncalled for and just alienating your player. He plays bad, you nail him, he plays good, nail him. No win scenario.

We actually had some talented young guys back then , I think the likes of the Kostitsyn Brothers and Tender would have done better with another coach.


The Kostitsyn brothers needed better off-ice guidance.

I said it from his first preseason game, Latendresse needed to be taught to skate with the puck with his head up at the NHL level where he's going to play with people his own size. 6 years later he retired at 25 years old from too many concussions.
 
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yianik

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Jun 30, 2009
10,606
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The Kostitsyn brothers needed better off guidance.

I said it from his first preseason game, Latendresse needed to be taught to skate with the puck with his head up at the NHL level where he's going to play with people his own size. 6 years later he retired at 25 years old from too many concussions.

Tender could score. Without those concussions I think he would have been up there in terms of horrible Hab trades.

Lol. He drove Martin nuts. During practice coaches would physically pull Tender and his 230 pound frame to the front of the net, and Tender would glide away. Not his thing and Martin refused to let Tender play his game, so boom, gone. Meanwhile the good soldiers got rewarded. I liked Darche, as a 4th liner, buy Martin promoted the skill challenged guy to top 6, lol. Yeah, good times.

Just once, a players coach.
 
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