Trevor Timmins Discussion (Part 10)

[WeThreeKings]

Exactly, the goal of the AHl is not to make every player an NHL star, but instead to have the player the maximum he could become, and if that is an ECHL star, then so be it.
With sly , almost every player was worst then he could have been.
And we see that clearly now , as all players whatever their level are improving, learning and aiming higher not lower

Like its very possible that Poehling and Brook amount to nothing but at least we can see clear progression under Bouchard.

It figures our first top 3 in 30 freaking years is a crap year.

That's the thing about rebuilds. Sometimes it isn't the amount of top picks you get but when you get them.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

That's the thing about rebuilds. Sometimes it isn't the amount of top picks you get but when you get them.

I've said many times... you need multiple top picks. Odds are, some aren't going to be the franchise player you're looking for. You can get lucky but...

 

[tazsub3]

Like its very possible that Poehling and Brook amount to nothing but at least we can see clear progression under Bouchard.

Exactly, add players like Evans and venjdemo who both started badly and improved a lot under bouchard

 

[yianik]

Like its very possible that Poehling and Brook amount to nothing but at least we can see clear progression under Bouchard.

And this is important. Obviously its important because it means we have a greater chance of players maximizing potential, which hopefully results in top 6F or top 4D.

Also important because we can more easily identify if drafting is a problem. If guys really improve from where they started at when they turned pro but were still mediocre NHL players, then drafting a big problem. Vice versa and all in between.

 

[The Great Weal]

This is getting ridiculous. So the renewed Galchenyuk, who still has 3 points in 7 games (I had to check and see 'cause the way people talked about him I thought he was 1.5PPG) was the right choice and based on the Maple Leafs board, we f***ed up his development....So I just learned today that the Leafs board is now the reference. Great. So I guess Justin Pogge is today the best goalie that has ever played the game. And Alexander Suglobov, the preseason star, is still today amongst the elite of the league.

First, today, as far as THIS debate is concerned, there are NO defenders of Bergevin/Lefebvre/Therrien/Desharnais. NONE. Pretty sure people know my position on all of them. I wanted all 4 of them OUT for a very long time. Maybe a longer time than most people who hate them. I wanted Lefebvre out in 2015 and wanted Bouchard in. BUt it was ALWAYS in response to ''Timmins is god'' and OH MY GOD what will do without him. THAT existed. Timmins is top 5. THAT existed. Timmins record is completely f***ed because MOSTLY of development. THAT existed.

About Galchenyuk, see I don't doubht he was the right pick to make. What was NOT the right thing to do and that's mostly a Bergevin issue who HAD already determined that he was a centerman. And told his coach that we needed a C and we had to make it happen.

But you know what....the Alex Galchenyuk that is SOOOOOO revered by the Maple Leafs board...can you tell me the position he's playing? OH and how many minutes does he gets? How the heck would you and others be whining if after a performance of 2 points playing on 10 minutes he'd be playing only 12 minutes the next game?

Not to mention that we apparently ruined Galchenyuk so badly that he HAD to stop being a good top 6 forward like he was with us, and was FORCED to become a much worse player on the other 4 teams before joining the Leafs and apparently finding his game again (we have heard this when he started with the Wild too). It just makes no sense to me why he had to stop becoming a top 6 forward with us. Sure, let's say we ruined him from being a 90+ point player, why are the Habs management to blame for a guy putting up 50ish points with them for several seasons falling off a cliff not long after being traded away. Also, if Galchenyuk does find his game again with the Leafs, are we still to blame for him underperforming previously? Are all the other teams to blame too or just us?

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

It figures our first top 3 in 30 freaking years is a crap year.

One year earlier we would've gotten Huberdeau. Following year we could've drafted Seth Jones - no way we'd have taken him ahead of Drouin though.

Now the question would have been... does Huberdeau get stunted as well? 'Cause we definitely f***ed up Galchenyuk.

 

[Whitesnake]

Ok that's a good rebuttal.

Don't get me wrong. Galchenyuk WAS mishandled. Desharnais was NOT a good centerman. Lefebvre was clearly NOT a good head coach. But while we should have found ANOTHER centerman to move Desharnais, we should have kept Galchy on the wings and move somebody else from there.

I will not believe we missed on a great prospect in McCarron too. But the obsession of making players centermen because we sucked so much at drafting them is mindboggling. If those scenarios are not enough to believe that we wanted to make players somebody they weren't....I don't know what to tell you.

Not to mention that we apparently ruined Galchenyuk so badly that he HAD to stop being a good top 6 forward like he was with us, and was FORCED to become a much worse player on the other 4 teams before joining the Leafs and apparently finding his game again (we have heard this when he started with the Wild too). It just makes no sense to me why he had to stop becoming a top 6 forward with us. Sure, let's say we ruined him from being a 90+ point player, why are the Habs management to blame for a guy putting up 50ish points with them for several seasons falling off a cliff not long after being traded away. Also, if Galchenyuk does find his game again with the Leafs, are we still to blame for him underperforming previously? Are all the other teams to blame too or just us?

I will always believe in confidence. Of course. So people will say that we've destroyed their confidence. Yet...when you are traded, aren't we hearing how it's a great fresh start? And how ''I will show my detractors'' how great I finally was? Shouldn't it be a boost for confidence?

It figures our first top 3 in 30 freaking years is a crap year.

If a team had vision, we could have had a chance to draft in other years top picks too......I hate how Bergevin is often perceived as a victim of his own wrongdoing...

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

If a team had vision, we could have had a chance to draft in other years top picks too......I hate how Bergevin is often perceived as a victim of his own wrongdoing...

I completely agree. We should've made a concerted effort to rebuild properly. We only got Price via a flukey lottery pick.

 

[montreal]

I will always believe in confidence. Of course. So people will say that we've destroyed their confidence. Yet...when you are traded, aren't we hearing how it's a great fresh start? And how ''I will show my detractors'' how great I finally was? Shouldn't it be a boost for confidence?

for some, everyone handles things differently.

 

[Whitesnake]

for some, everyone handles things differently.

True. So what the perfect coach will have is the ability to address issues with players solely depending of how much they could handle it. Not given to everybody. Thing is, when you can't handle it...you do what Leblanc does, you retire. To me, it seems that Galchenyuk, like Tinordi, was ready to show people what he was worth based on the fact that he still continue his road. But it remains to be seen what ceiling can be obtained.

 

[montreal]

True. So what the perfect coach will have is the ability to address issues with players solely depending of how much they could handle it. Not given to everybody. Thing is, when you can't handle it...you do what Leblanc does, you retire. To me, it seems that Galchenyuk, like Tinordi, was ready to show people what he was worth based on the fact that he still continue his road. But it remains to be seen what ceiling can be obtained.

I loved getting to listen to Guy Boucher talk about how you have to handle kids differently these days, back when he was Hamilton's coach as he gave the best pre/post game interviews. Such a good idea to have a coach that has a degree in sports psychology. Of course that was Timmins who was behind pushing for Boucher.

 

[Holystik]

TSN's Craig Button just released his 2021 annual top 75 NHL prospects ranking.
Lets take a look at Habs prospects rankings.

#2 -Cole Caufield
#36 -Kaiden Guhle
#62 -Mattias Norlinder

Now onto his personal Habs prospects top 5:

1-Cole Caufield
2-Kaiden Guhle
3-Mattias Norlinder
4-Cayden Primeau
5-Ryan Poehling

Wings' blue chippers, Caufield headline Top 75 prospects list - TSN.ca

 

[montreal]

not ready to put Poehling in the top 5 just yet but Harris, Struble, Ylonen, Tuck, Mysak, Brook, Farrell, Leksinen, Teasdale, Faribrother, Dobes, RHP (not in any order) shows what a good year the top 15 or so prospects are having. Plus I could see Hillis, Smith, and Stapley bouncing back next year.

 

[montreal]

NCAA players can be so tough to get a read on. I talked about how much more I liked Quinn Hughes over Tkackuk but how I never would have expected them to be this good in the NHL. I didn't think Will Butcher could step right into the NHL and do as good as he did. Even Makar, my god is he so good but after his Freshman year, he really wasn't very impressive at all.

I mean he put up some points for sure but his .62 ppg at 19, was a hair lower then Jordan Harris's at 19 (.64 ppg). When he went back to UMass at 20 for his Sophmore year despite being a 4th OA pick, I thought it was a good idea, then he puts up a 1.2 ppg and from there he's now one of the best players in the NHL. I did not see that coming.

I really like what the Avs did there with him (not that they could have forced him to sign of course) or what the Nucks did with Pettersson. I talk a lot about development and how much I hate rushing prospects, and this is clearly in hindsight as at the time who knew that Makar going back to the NCAA at 20 would see him double his ppg or that Pettersson would still be Pettersson had he not spend another year with Vaxjo where he led the team in goals, assists, points at 19. But it does make me wonder how things may have gone differently for some of our guys that they not been rushed so quickly. Hopefully Caufield going back for his 2nd year is going to end up being MB's greatest move ever and we have a Makar like prospect on our hands!

 

[Whitesnake]

People are bringing up the fact that Galchy started strong and could not have faded if he would have been better developed....so I guess that's what happened to Yakupov too? How come people are talking about Yakupov as a failure....when he had 17 goals and 31 points in 48 games? And then went downhill from there? Was it development too? How about Anthony Mantha? Already downhill at 26 years old? How about DeBrusk? I mean it's more frequent than people think....

 

[robert ethan]

MB makes the trades not Timmins. Norlinder will easily play in the NHL.

I think Bergy largely goes along with the scouts as far as the draft is concerned. If Tiny tells him there's a hidden talent they can still land further down the board, Marc answers the call from the other GM to move back. He doesn't have the time to study prospects personally.

Though at least they have Leguerrier now, if they were prepared to take Norlinder in the second round.

 

[Adam Michaels]

I think Bergy largely goes along with the scouts as far as the draft is concerned. If Tiny tells him there's a hidden talent they can still land further down the board, Marc answers the call from the other GM to move back. He doesn't have the time to study prospects personally.

MB definitely checks in with Timmins about trades. But it's MB who makes the final decision. Not Timmins.

There are videos of them at the draft table where MB clearly checks with Timmins if a guy TT wants is still on the board, if not, he will move back.

In 2018, you see MB move a pick when Timmins was on his way to confirm the pick with the league. MB called him back to the table. You see Timmins was disappointed.

Luckily, the player Timmins wanted to take at that moment was still available later. It ended up being Hillis.

He also was ready to move the pick that they had when they selected Fairbrother. TT and Churla told MB that this was someone they wanted. MB agreed but told them if he is off the board, he will move the pick.

So yes, MB consults with TT. But the final decision is MB. As it was shown in the Hillis pick, he moved the pick regardless of TT agreed to it or not.

 

[Legend123]

I think Bergy largely goes along with the scouts as far as the draft is concerned. If Tiny tells him there's a hidden talent they can still land further down the board, Marc answers the call from the other GM to move back. He doesn't have the time to study prospects personally.

Though at least they have Leguerrier now, if they were prepared to take Norlinder in the second round.

That's not true as we know he personally scouts players from time to time like he did with Kakko

 

[robert ethan]

That's not true as we know he personally scouts players from time to time like he did with Kakko

"From time to time". Don't think he's checking out mid round prospects.

 

[Legend123]

"From time to time". Don't think he's checking out mid round prospects.

i should have said we know at the very least "from time to time." Im quite sure his duties include scouting prospects

 

[Whitesnake]

Minus Victor Mete.... So 2016 is Sergachev. A top 10 pick. We can close that draft year. Luckily for him, 2016 was a bad year.

 

[Gaylord Q Tinkledink]

Should be let go with pretty much everyone else in the scouting department at the end of the season along with Ducharme and Bergevin

 

[montreal]

Minus Victor Mete.... So 2016 is Sergachev. A top 10 pick. We can close that draft year. Luckily for him, 2016 was a bad year.

1 pick in the top 69 is just terrible but he nailed that Sergachev pick. Mete if he never plays an NHL game again is still a solid pick in the 4th round imo, but I would bet everything I own he plays in the NHL again. I haven't seen Bitten, but liked the pick, that Staum pick though, one of his worst picks despite being a 5th rounder.

I haven't followed why he's not playing at Colorado College but they aren't very good the past few years but I don't know if it's injuries or he just stinks but just 11 games and 1 pt since going to the NCAA. Can't get much worse then that. I like what Pezzetta is doing this year, I would re-sign him 100% and I think he will see NHL games. Henriksson I would have fired Rockstrom after that, what the f*** were they thinking trading to get a pick so they could take him because Rockstrom wanted him, if I recall correctly.

 

[Whitesnake]

way too early to say that. In 2-3 years he could look much better.

Missing the mark doesn't mean he's done progressing. I have NO DOUBT he'll look better soon. Just talking about developing players as they should be. Should have never started in the NHL. That's how they miss the mark.

I personally have never used the word Ruined, but I never understood how people can look at pre MB/Lef era and see that drafting and development were working well enough (depending on ones definition) and then it just turns to utter shit and now it's just starting to look better in the post Lefebvre world but somehow there's no correlation and that makes sense?

Also there's no need to take shots at posters because they see things differently then you do, calling someone a fanatic for their opinion is over the line imo. Why not just discuss your opinion and not take pot shots at anyone who has a different opinion.

Well my point of view is that Lefebvre had the possibility to really work on habs prospects from 27% of Timmins prospects. The other 73% are about players he never saw or their stints were relatively short so he'd had no impact on them.

In comparison, if you take the good Timmins years from 03 to 07, out of those 42 prospects taken, 19 players played significantly in the AHL and i'm including Pacioretty 'cause he asked himself to be sent back to get his game going. But I'm not counting Subban 'cause he only played 1 year. So 19 out of 42 = 45%

08-16 = 27%
03-07 = 45%

Timmins and Co were THEN better from 03-07 compared to 08-16. Period. Whether it's Timmins himself. Or the group he was surrounding himself with.

Of course, there will be moer successed coming out of the AHL level if you have more players to work with.

Also, out of the 55% missing from the 03-07, these are not Cepek of this worl only...but quite a few making it without no or limited time in the AHL.

Which prooves one thing....IF we ever want to blame development, we have to do it WAY MORE at the NHL LEVEL. Not the AHL level.

 

[montreal]

Missing the mark doesn't mean he's done progressing. I have NO DOUBT he'll look better soon. Just talking about developing players as they should be. Should have never started in the NHL. That's how they miss the mark.




Well my point of view is that Lefebvre had the possibility to really work on habs prospects from 27% of Timmins prospects. The other 73% are about players he never saw or their stints were relatively short so he'd had no impact on them.

In comparison, if you take the good Timmins years from 03 to 07, out of those 42 prospects taken, 19 players played significantly in the AHL and i'm including Pacioretty 'cause he asked himself to be sent back to get his game going. But I'm not counting Subban 'cause he only played 1 year. So 19 out of 42 = 45%

08-16 = 27%
03-07 = 45%

Of course, there will be moer successed coming out of the AHL level if you have more players to work with.

Also, out of the 55% missing from the 03-07, these are not Cepek of this worl only...but quite a few making it without no or limited time in the AHL.

Which prooves one thing....IF we ever want to blame development, we have to do it WAY MORE at the NHL LEVEL. Not the AHL level.

I don't see the point of looking at the % of prospects when what's important is the success rate. If we had 2 prospects that played for Lefebvre, but those 2 turned into solid NHLers, that's great.

1st round picks in the AHL,

08-15 = 6
03-07 = 4

Yet the one with just 4 all turned into solid NHLers with at least 398 games and all over 100 pts or being a top goalie in the NHL.

The one that had 6 so far the best one out of the group is Beaulieu. Our first 4 years had one 4th liner in Chipchura, yet 5 of the 6 combined haven't even played as many games as him.

You could go beyond 1st round picks and just say all the prospects that were drafted pre Lefebvre and in the AHL and then during the MB/Lef era and see how many progressed/regressed as that's the #1 thing you would want from an AHL coach is to see progression. How do you think that will turn out, not the %, the actual number.