Training Camp 2019 - Senators 63-player roster announced

[Micklebot]

Sabourin's role is to play 7 or 8 mins a night. Which prospect should be getting that job exactly? Better they get big minutes in the A, even guys like Parker Kelly.

To be fair, there is no rule that one player on each team shall be limited to 8 mins a night.

On average, there's 15 mins available for each forward. If you want one player to get more, it needs to come from another, but there is no reason why you can't have 4 lines that all get a reasonable amount of icetime.

Just as an example,

L1: 17:00 mins (2.5 on PP and 1.5 on PK)
L2: 16:00 mins (1.5 on PP and 1.5 on PK)
L3: 14:00 mins (.5 on PP and 1 on PK)
L4: 13:00 mins (.5 on PP and 1 on PP)

Playing players 8 mins a night typically comes from having players you don't trust and need to shelter, it's a result of having bad players on the roster, not a role you need to fill on a roster.

 

[Slack]

To be fair, there is no rule that one player on each team shall be limited to 8 mins a night.

On average, there's 15 mins available for each forward. If you want one player to get more, it needs to come from another, but there is no reason why you can't have 4 lines that all get a reasonable amount of icetime.

Just as an example,

L1: 17:00 mins (2.5 on PP and 1.5 on PK)
L2: 16:00 mins (1.5 on PP and 1.5 on PK)
L3: 14:00 mins (.5 on PP and 1 on PK)
L4: 13:00 mins (.5 on PP and 1 on PP)

Playing players 8 mins a night typically comes from having players you don't trust and need to shelter, it's a result of having bad players on the roster, not a role you need to fill on a roster.

Fair point. But 4th line minutes are typically limited minutes at the best of times. A bit of hyperbole on my end but I just don't think any of our young guys would benefit much from those minutes, whatever the totals may be.

 

[Hale The Villain]

The expectations for Sabourin were so low that simply not being a liability means he performed well apparently.

His pre-season contributions amount to hitting a Leafs player from behind and fighting Harpur, as well as attempting to slewfoot Domi, then throwing punches at him before he had his gloves off, resulting in a powerplay against.

He's a complete plug with zero talent that has no business being anywhere near an NHL roster. In fact, he shouldn't be playing above the 4th line in Belleville given his track record in the AHL the last 5 years.

A smart GM would haven't have signed him to plug a hole on the roster and instead used his contract spot to pick up one of the several decent players on the waiver wire. Alas, we do not have a smart GM.

 

[Crosside]

The expectations for Sabourin were so low that simply not being a liability means he performed well apparently.

His pre-season contributions amount to hitting a Leafs player from behind and fighting Harpur, as well as attempting to slewfoot Domi, then throwing punches at him before he had his gloves off, resulting in a powerplay against.

He's a complete plug with zero talent that has no business being anywhere near an NHL roster. In fact, he shouldn't be playing above the 4th line in Belleville given his track record in the AHL the last 5 years.

A smart GM would haven't have signed him to plug a hole on the roster and instead used his contract spot to pick up one of the several decent players on the waiver wire. Alas, we do not have a smart GM.

How many team pick up waiver since today? Ok thank you

 

[Micklebot]

Fair point. But 4th line minutes are typically limited minutes at the best of times. A bit of hyperbole on my end but I just don't think any of our young guys would benefit much from those minutes, whatever the totals may be.

I think the problem is labeling lines. We could make two bottom 6 lines that are pretty similar in quality. Give them the same type of mins. Heck, we could probably make 3 bottom 9 lines that are equivalent and spread the wealth.

Put all of Duclair Anisimov, Ennis, Pageau, Ryan, Chlapik, Tierney, Boedker and whatever prospect we don't want getting 4th line mins, (lets use waive NYI Ho-Sang for this exercise), though a blender and create some lines.

Duclair-Anisimov-Ho-Sang
Ennis-Pageau-Ryan
Chlapik-Tierney-Boedker

Alternatively, we could build a 4th line out of discardable vets opening up top 9 mins for prospects instead of relegating them to the 4th line:

Ennis-Anisimov-Boedker as the discardable 4th line

Duclair-Tierney-Ho-Sang
Chlapik-Pageau- Ryan

There really is no reason we need to have a prospect playing 8 mins a night or getting traditional 4th line mins.

 

[Hale The Villain]

How many team pick up waiver since today? Ok thank you

How many teams had a couple injuries occur in training camp and had no young guys play well enough to force their way onto the roster to fill in the spots?

Put me in Dorion's shoes and I wouldn't have signed Sabourin and kept Brannstrom up to replace Balcers and Wolanin. Instead I would have picked up Djoos/Forsling and Sprong to plug the holes, sending Brannstrom down to the AHL for some much needed development.

 

[Slack]

I think the problem is labeling lines. We could make two bottom 6 lines that are pretty similar in quality. Give them the same type of mins. Heck, we could probably make 3 bottom 9 lines that are equivalent and spread the wealth.

Put all of Duclair Anisimov, Ennis, Pageau, Ryan, Chlapik, Tierney, Boedker and whatever prospect we don't want getting 4th line mins, (lets use waive NYI Ho-Sang for this exercise), though a blender and create some lines.

Duclair-Anisimov-Ho-Sang
Ennis-Pageau-Ryan
Chlapik-Tierney-Boedker

Alternatively, we could build a 4th line out of discardable vets opening up top 9 mins for prospects instead of relegating them to the 4th line:

Ennis-Anisimov-Boedker as the discardable 4th line

Duclair-Tierney-Ho-Sang
Chlapik-Pageau- Ryan

There really is no reason we need to have a prospect playing 8 mins a night or getting traditional 4th line mins.

I mean it's possible we could roll 4 lines, we probably have the C depth to do that, but I haven't seen anything from DJ to suggest he'll be doing this. If he does, then Sabu can easily do down to the A in favour of a callup.

 

[JD1]

To be fair, there is no rule that one player on each team shall be limited to 8 mins a night.

On average, there's 15 mins available for each forward. If you want one player to get more, it needs to come from another, but there is no reason why you can't have 4 lines that all get a reasonable amount of icetime.

Just as an example,

L1: 17:00 mins (2.5 on PP and 1.5 on PK)
L2: 16:00 mins (1.5 on PP and 1.5 on PK)
L3: 14:00 mins (.5 on PP and 1 on PK)
L4: 13:00 mins (.5 on PP and 1 on PP)

Playing players 8 mins a night typically comes from having players you don't trust and need to shelter, it's a result of having bad players on the roster, not a role you need to fill on a roster.

Honest question

Do you believe what you wrote here or are you trying to present an opposing view?

There is a reason you dont have 4 lines of 15 minutes equal ice time. That reason is because you have some players that are better than others. Look at any boxscore from any game....ever. you'll find an unequal distribution of ice.

Players getting 8 minutes of ice are typically getting 8 mins of ice because there are better players, not typically because they are sheltered. If Matthew's and Tavares or Crosby and Malkin are getting 19 minutes a night each, then some 4C is getting 8. The coach may not shelter him at all and the 8 minutes comes from the other guys getting 19

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Honest question

Do you believe what you wrote here or are you trying to present an opposing view?

There is a reason you dont have 4 lines of 15 minutes equal ice time. That reason is because you have some players that are better than others. Look at any boxscore from any game....ever. you'll find an unequal distribution of ice.

Players getting 8 minutes of ice are typically getting 8 mins of ice because there are better players, not typically because they are sheltered. If Matthew's and Tavares or Crosby and Malkin are getting 19 minutes a night each, then some 4C is getting 8. The coach may not shelter him at all and the 8 minutes comes from the other guys getting 19

The point is on this team it would be quite easy to balance the lines .. The better individuals would see PP and PK time. We do not have the Crosby's Malkins, Kucherovs 1st line players . Our best players top out at 2nd liners at the moment we can easily balance the lines and distribute the icetime staying away from the traditional 4th liner minutes. If not all 4 we could load up 1 and balance 3.. but our loading up with a line like White Tkachuk and Brown is arguably not really any better than Duclair Tierney and Batherson or Ennis Anisimov and Ryan .. head to head there is not much to pick and chose between those lines. If that is true, then trying to balance in Chlapik Pageau and Boedker is not that difficult. Hence the opinion , and a valid one imo, is that there is no reason for a prospect to be playing those traditional 4th line minutes with this group.. the separation is not big enough between at least 3/4 at every forward postion

 

[JD1]

The point is on this team it would be quite easy to balance the lines .. The better individuals would see PP and PK time. We do not have the Crosby's Malkins, Kucherovs 1st line players . Our best players top out at 2nd liners at the moment we can easily balance the lines and distribute the icetime staying away from the traditional 4th liner minutes. If not all 4 we could load up 1 and balance 3.. but our loading up with a line like White Tkachuk and Brown is arguably not really any better than Duclair Tierney and Batherson or Ennis Anisimov and Ryan .. head to head there is not much to pick and chose between those lines. If that is true, then trying to balance in Chlapik Pageau and Boedker is not that difficult. Hence the opinion , and a valid one imo, is that there is no reason for a prospect to be playing those traditional 4th line minutes with this group.. the separation is not big enough between at least 3/4 at every forward postion

Theoretically yes sure we could do that. I think the strength of the team might well be that forwards 5 thru 13 are better than a lot of teams. But coaches coach the way they do. I think with Sabourin we're likely to see him getting 5, 6, 7 minutes a night and his extra minutes distributed all over the place a lot of nights. I see almost all of them between 12 to 17 minutes a night and Sabourin down quite low. 3 shifts a period at even strength. I dont have an issue with him playing that role for a half to a full season. I dont have an issue with the contract situation either. We might have hit a jackpot with Duclair which is good but we dont need reclamation projects around from a chemistry view point if mgmt is good with the group we have.

 

[Micklebot]

Honest question

Do you believe what you wrote here or are you trying to present an opposing view?

There is a reason you dont have 4 lines of 15 minutes equal ice time. That reason is because you have some players that are better than others. Look at any boxscore from any game....ever. you'll find an unequal distribution of ice.

Players getting 8 minutes of ice are typically getting 8 mins of ice because there are better players, not typically because they are sheltered. If Matthew's and Tavares or Crosby and Malkin are getting 19 minutes a night each, then some 4C is getting 8. The coach may not shelter him at all and the 8 minutes comes from the other guys getting 19

I have a hard time believing you read my post and thought that I needed to be explained that there is a reason you don't have 4 lines of 15 mins, so I'm left to believe motives are less than honourable.

I'm not sure if you're just getting hung up on me saying they get 8 mins because they get sheltered, I also said it was a result of having bad players, the implication being that bad players get sheltered, but I'll concede that it's possible to be bad and not be sheltered while getting 8 mins a night.

We don't have a Matthew's and Tavares or Crosby and Malkin to be getting 19 minutes a night each. So we shouldn't really have to worry about needing to find those mins. We don't have the spread of talent a lot of other teams do, the gap between our #1 center and #4 center is probably the smallest in the league. We don't really have any wingers that particularly stand out aside from Tkachuk and maybe Duclair. While DJ Smith will likely end up having his favourites, there is no reason to believe we can't find time for 4 lines worth of players to have meaningful roles should we determine we have players good enough to fill those roles.

We don't need to have an 8 min player, there is no doubt in my mind of that. It is not a role that is required out of necessity, it is one that arises because the player isn't good enough relative to his teammates to play a greater role. So, when somebody says Sabourin will play 8 mins a night, and that fine because we wouldn't want some other prospect that he's blocking now playing those mins, the original topic to which I was responding, I'll point out the flawed logic.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

How many team pick up waiver since today? Ok thank you

Hale once famously said he doesn't care what other NHL teams do when evaluating what the Sens do. He lives in a bubble.

 

[JD1]

I have a hard time believing you read my post and thought that I needed to be explained that there is a reason you don't have 4 lines of 15 mins, so I'm left to believe motives are less than honourable.

I'm not sure if you're just getting hung up on me saying they get 8 mins because they get sheltered, I also said it was a result of having bad players, the implication being that bad players get sheltered, but I'll concede that it's possible to be bad and not be sheltered while getting 8 mins a night.

We don't have a Matthew's and Tavares or Crosby and Malkin to be getting 19 minutes a night each. So we shouldn't really have to worry about needing to find those mins. We don't have the spread of talent a lot of other teams do, the gap between our #1 center and #4 center is probably the smallest in the league. We don't really have any wingers that particularly stand out aside from Tkachuk and maybe Duclair. While DJ Smith will likely end up having his favourites, there is no reason to believe we can't find time for 4 lines worth of players to have meaningful roles should we determine we have players good enough to fill those roles.

We don't need to have an 8 min player, there is no doubt in my mind of that. It is not a role that is required out of necessity, it is one that arises because the player isn't good enough relative to his teammates to play a greater role. So, when somebody says Sabourin will play 8 mins a night, and that fine because we wouldn't want some other prospect that he's blocking now playing those mins, the original topic to which I was responding, I'll point out the flawed logic.

How you perceive my motives is your prerogative. I think my motives on this site have always been pretty clear.

You frequently present opposing points of view for discussion or arguments sake. I find it difficult at times to distinguish between when you are simply presenting an opposing view or your personal belief which frankly is why I began that post with the words "honest question"

You might however consider your own motives and narratives. Why do you feel that someone quoting your post has a motive? And what less than honourable motive do you think I have?

 

[Tuna99]

Montreal radio was saying Ottawas team isn’t going to great but has a ton of grit and plays hard hockey. They expect Montreal to win most of the games we play, but they like DJ Smiths style and feel Ottawa has an old school mentality in terms of push back which they like.

Respect.

Also said they’ve never heard a coach swear behind the bench like DJ Smith. We’re getting a reputation as a team of pirates. Foul mouthed, drop the gloves, take no prisoners.

It’s a good start to the rebuild

 

[Micklebot]

How you perceive my motives is your prerogative. I think my motives on this site have always been pretty clear.

You frequently present opposing points of view for discussion or arguments sake. I find it difficult at times to distinguish between when you are simply presenting an opposing view or your personal belief which frankly is why I began that post with the words "honest question"

You might however consider your own motives and narratives. Why do you feel that someone quoting your post has a motive? And what less than honourable motive do you think I have?

JD1, I have no issue with you discussing my position, it's a hockey discussion board after all. What I took issue with was you, for lack of a better term, mansplaining.
You started off with a strawman argument about 4 lines of 15 mins, and moved on to explaining that to give top players more mins it has to come from bottom line players, something that as I mentioned, was abundantly clear that I understood from my post given that I literally posted an example of it in my post.

I'm sure you are aware this is a hockey forum where concepts such as that need not be explained; your post could only come across as intentionally condescending.

Anyways, to paraphrase yourself, I'm not interested in having an argument with you today since your not even sticking to the topic of discussion, so have a good day.

 

[Sensung]

I think the problem is labeling lines. We could make two bottom 6 lines that are pretty similar in quality. Give them the same type of mins. Heck, we could probably make 3 bottom 9 lines that are equivalent and spread the wealth.

Put all of Duclair Anisimov, Ennis, Pageau, Ryan, Chlapik, Tierney, Boedker and whatever prospect we don't want getting 4th line mins, (lets use waive NYI Ho-Sang for this exercise), though a blender and create some lines.

Duclair-Anisimov-Ho-Sang
Ennis-Pageau-Ryan
Chlapik-Tierney-Boedker

Alternatively, we could build a 4th line out of discardable vets opening up top 9 mins for prospects instead of relegating them to the 4th line:

Ennis-Anisimov-Boedker as the discardable 4th line

Duclair-Tierney-Ho-Sang
Chlapik-Pageau- Ryan

There really is no reason we need to have a prospect playing 8 mins a night or getting traditional 4th line mins.

Exactly, but the false dichotomy of “in AHL or playing 4th line minutes” makes it much easier to justify the stupidity.

 

[Sensung]

I think my motives on this site have always been pretty clear.

Agreed

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDoo]

How many team pick up waiver since today? Ok thank you

Very few other teams are in the position we are in -- virtually zero chance of making the playoffs and in desperate need of high end talent.

I'm a little surprised that LA and Edmonton didnt claim one of these guys, but I'm not that familiar with their current rosters to actually comment.

 

[JD1]

Isn't this like, the same damn argument? Take about trying to present an opposing view for the hell of it...

The question I had about the initial post was driven from the notion that guys that get 8 minutes a night only get 8 minutes a night because they are sheltered and I don't believe that is true. Lots of guys are getting single digit ice because there are better players ahead of them and it has nothing to do with being sheltered nor is it typical. Those same players move off to other teams and often see their ice time flourish. What is "typical" is the better players play more leaving less ice for other players. That doesn't imply those guys are being sheltered

 

[RAFI BOMB]

Delete

 

[Sensung]

The expectations for Sabourin were so low that simply not being a liability means he performed well apparently.

His pre-season contributions amount to hitting a Leafs player from behind and fighting Harpur, as well as attempting to slewfoot Domi, then throwing punches at him before he had his gloves off, resulting in a powerplay against.

He's a complete plug with zero talent that has no business being anywhere near an NHL roster. In fact, he shouldn't be playing above the 4th line in Belleville given his track record in the AHL the last 5 years.

A smart GM would haven't have signed him to plug a hole on the roster and instead used his contract spot to pick up one of the several decent players on the waiver wire. Alas, we do not have a smart GM.

Good summary.