Proposal: Trade Proposals

[Drake744]

If Turris is out for an extended period of time I'd like to seriously consider moving a lot of Duchene.

Center. Wants to be here. Left handed shot.

Is this with or without an extension in place?

I realize he'd probably stay but just asking

 

[maplepred]

I would hope Fiala, Fabbro, and a First would garner more than Mark Stone aka Craig Smith.

Mark stone is light years better than Craig smith. Not even close. If Craig smith for mark stone trade happened, the league would be calling Poile a wizard once again and Ottawa fans would all jump ship to cheer for us after that kind of brutal trade.

Also, do not hold out much hope in getting duchene guys... I can see if happening in free agency but very highly unlikely in a trade. Considering the mountain they gave up to get duchene I doubt he gets moved for much less. He hits free agency almost 100%. Dorion will look pathetic if he moves him for something way less was that he moved for him less than a year ago.

Unless dorion is just plain dumb (and that could be) then duchene is a pipe dream. Stone would cost a boat load as well, he’s better than duchene IMO.

 

[Roman Yoshi]

Did someone really just compare Mark Stone to Craig Smith? Yikes.

 

[GeauxPreds1]

Tor- Subban

Chicago- Nylander, tolvenen, Zaitsev Nash 2019 2nd, Tor 2019 3rd

Nashville- Kane, Liljengren

Just curious would you anybody do this. I get subban means alot but to have a guy like Kane would be so sick.

 

[Gh24]

Uhm, why would any team do this? Sure Chicago gets younger by this move, but on the expense of losing Kane, who has been a ppg player for his 10+ year career and continues to be one? No.

Toronto gets Subban (9m) for Nylander + Liljegren + Zaitsev (4.5m) + 3rd while trying to figure out how they're gonna fit Marner and Mathews? I don't think so.

Us? I'd take Kane screaming, but if we're trading Subban AND Tolvanen (+ that 2nd round pick) I want a defenseman coming back who can contribute NOW, not in 1-3 years.

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

Well, at least that proposal was posted on our boards before unleashed on the main board. Hopefully it won't find it's way to the latter.

Edit: Too late....

 

[GeauxPreds1]

Uhm, why would any team do this? Sure Chicago gets younger by this move, but on the expense of losing Kane, who has been a ppg player for his 10+ year career and continues to be one? No.

Toronto gets Subban (9m) for Nylander + Liljegren + Zaitsev (4.5m) + 3rd while trying to figure out how they're gonna fit Marner and Mathews? I don't think so.

Us? I'd take Kane screaming, but if we're trading Subban AND Tolvanen (+ that 2nd round pick) I want a defenseman coming back who can contribute NOW, not in 1-3 years.

Eh just coming up with fun proposals

 

[101st_fan]

Eh just coming up with fun proposals

How about something remotely rational?

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Tor- Subban

Chicago- Nylander, tolvenen, Zaitsev Nash 2019 2nd, Tor 2019 3rd

Nashville- Kane, Liljengren

Just curious would you anybody do this. I get subban means alot but to have a guy like Kane would be so sick.

Kane with his cap hit and his cup rings and he's 30 now... it feels like he's not quite the same player. Subban won't be either perhaps. But I'm not going out of my way to get Kane like it's still 2015. I'd rather spend our cap space on other guys. I'm not convinced Kane would be a fit with our forward group anyway. Not throwing in Tolvanen at least. Pass.

 

[LCPreds]

There are just certain things you don't do. I just don't think my heart would ever really be into it if I tried to cheer for Kane.

 

[Gh24]

I wanted to play along and started to think of a "fun proposal" scenario where we'd trade Subban and the only one I could somehow rationalize from everyone's POV was between us, Kings and Sens. Well, truthfully I just looked at bottom teams and who we could be targeting as a top4 replacement and then figured out how to justify a trade that lead to us acquiring said dman and Duchene (who I hope we make a trade for anyway). I had to make some assumptions.

Spoiler

Assumptions #1 and #2 are that neither of Stone or Duchene wants to stay in Ottawa and are both willing to sign with their new teams.

So. Kings are tight against cap and they have a situation with Kovalchuk. According to Kings fans he hasn't been bad. Not worth that caphit, but not bad. He thought he'd sign with a contender, but for whatever reason they're not doing very well. There have been rumors of Kovalchuk bolting to KHL, so he's open for a little tour (Assumption #3).

Since we're looking for a replacement in our top4 for Subban, one of Muzzin (signed thru 19-20), Martinez or Phaneuf (signed thru 20-21) is added to the deal between Kings and Ottawa (what would happen to Phaneuf retention???). Kings have 27.6M invested to six dman after Doughty's new contract kicks in next season, so they're willing to part with one of their 4-5.25M deals (Assumption #4). Maybe Borowiecki ($1.25M) going the other way?

Kings need a winger and Stone would be a perfect fit (Assumption #5). They have a good core of Kopitar, Carter, Toffoli on forwards side and Doughty and two of the three mentioned before on D. They should be doing a lot better than they are and Stone recognizes this (Assumption #6) and is therefore willing to sign there. Kings also give up 1st and a prospect I cannot name. I just don't know enough about their prospects and what they're worth.

Might not sound much, but Ottawa does this to finalize the deal with us and Kovalchuk's base salary is only $650,000 for this season, rest of it being signing bonuses, so Kings have already paid over 90% of his total earnings for this season. Ottawa is going to flip Kovalchuk later to a contender with a retention (up to 50%), so they end up paying Kovy next to nothing and get free cap dollars to reach the floor during their rebuild AND another first or a prospect (Assumption #7).

So, Muzzin, Martinez or Phaneuf? My rationale to acquire a dman with 1-2 years left on their contract is Fabbro. We want to get back a top4 dman who is with us next year, but do we expect Fabbro to be ready for top4 minutes already in 20-21 after Muzzin's deal would expire or do we play safe and trade for Martinez or Phaneuf who we can then stuff to 3rd pair if Fabbro proves to be ready. I'd say the latter.

Now here comes the Subban to Ottawa part and this one was harder to justify since they're not contending. This is where it pretty much falls apart. That being said, I had to finish this "fun proposal", so here it is.

Ottawa acquires a face that is more valuable to the franchise and the owners than it is to the team itself. While Subban is very very valuable player on ice, he's probably more valuable to Ottawa off the ice. Sell those Subban jerseys and maybe lure more folks to the arena. Take advantage of the Subban brand for few years and deal him forward. Maybe with a retention. Aaaaand at the end of the day, according to my first assumptions, neither of Stone nor Duchene were going to stay anyway!

Essentially the three teams ends up trading the following (I'm gonna pick one of those three dmen to keep this better looking):

Kings:
Kovalchuk + Martinez + 1st (2019) + prospect <-> Stone (+ Borowiecki)

Ottawa:
Stone + Duchene <-> Subban + Kovalchuk + 1st (2019) + prospect

Nashville:
Subban <-> Duchene + Martinez

I spent so much time writing that, checking those numbers that while I don't believe it's gonna happen, I don't want to erase it. I want to know how far off you think I am with the value. With or without those assumptions I made.

That all being said, I'd rather keep it simple. Fiala or Tolvanen for signed Duchene.

Or if it still has to be Subban, maybe for Giroux/Couturier+MacDonald. Adds to balance either way. I can't figure out another possibility (except for Draisaitl) and I don't know if Philly were interested in the first place, but more importantly, I can't figure out why we'd trade Subban right now in the first place.

 

[Flyers Faithful]

Would Nashville have any interest in Wayne Simmonds?

 

[King Weber]

Would Nashville have any interest in Wayne Simmonds?

I believe so. Certainly could use a player like him on the PP and Lavy would be familiar with him.

Really depends on what it would take to get him though, since I don't see Poile trading either Tolvanen or Fabbro for someone who'd likely only be a rental.

what are the Flyers needs besides goaltending?

 

[Flyers Faithful]

I believe so. Certainly could use a player like him on the PP and Lavy would be familiar with him.

Really depends on what it would take to get him though, since I don't see Poile trading either Tolvanen or Fabbro for someone who'd likely only be a rental.

what are the Flyers needs besides goaltending?

They need a 3C and some help on d to go along with goaltending.

I know he’s a winger but what’s the deal with Fiala? Is he really in Lavys dog house? And if so is he someone you’d consider moving in a deal for simmer? We can retain 50% on simmer to help if you wanted to Have more flexibility for deadline moves.

 

[Drake744]

They need a 3C and some help on d to go along with goaltending.

I know he’s a winger but what’s the deal with Fiala? Is he really in Lavys dog house? And if so is he someone you’d consider moving in a deal for simmer? We can retain 50% on simmer to help if you wanted to Have more flexibility for deadline moves.

I've heard worse proposals on here. I'd really like to have Simmonds personally. Fiala is hit or miss. He shows flashes of brilliance but then tries to do too much and makes silly mistakes. He has something, it's just a matter of putting it together. He also has a history of being kind of immature at times and easily frustrated but, he turned 22 this summer so that may be a thing of the past. Plus that's not really fair to label him as that when I don't know if that's still true. But on the flip side he's still pretty young, so, there lies the uncertainty with him. My guess is most teams in the league would see him as an attractive trade return. Or part of one.

As far as a 3C, that's probably going to raise people's ears here as an excuse to trade Bonino. I'm personally not there right now but I think some are. For a right move anyway. Center depth in the immediate near future though is a little hazy until we find out what the Turris injury is. If it's a long term problem we may actually try and buy a center, not trade one.

 

[Scoresberg]

Would absolutely l0ve to get Simmonds. Don't know what we have to offer for Philly to be interested. If he reaches UFA I want us to make a big push for him.

 

[Flyers Faithful]

I've heard worse proposals on here. I'd really like to have Simmonds personally. Fiala is hit or miss. He shows flashes of brilliance but then tries to do too much and makes silly mistakes. He has something, it's just a matter of putting it together. He also has a history of being kind of immature at times and easily frustrated but, he turned 22 this summer so that may be a thing of the past. Plus that's not really fair to label him as that when I don't know if that's still true. But on the flip side he's still pretty young, so, there lies the uncertainty with him. My guess is most teams in the league would see him as an attractive trade return. Or part of one.

As far as a 3C, that's probably going to raise people's ears here as an excuse to trade Bonino. I'm personally not there right now but I think some are. For a right move anyway. Center depth in the immediate near future though is a little hazy until we find out what the Turris injury is. If it's a long term problem we may actually try and buy a center, not trade one.

I think Bonino is a good player he tore us up while he was on pit, we’re looking for someone on a shorter deal though because we have frost waiting in the wings.

Would simmer at 50% retained straight up for Fiala be something of interest?

 

[Gh24]

Cap hit is not an issue. We can easily take Simmonds at 100% and that should not play a significant role in the discussions. Too much of a futures to a rental to my liking. And futures here being someone who has already proven to be an NHLer, despite being a little streaky and still maturing as a player.

Should Simmonds show interest in resigning with us at a reasonable price (5x5 or so), then that's a whole new story. Then I'd do it. While I still believe Fiala is going to be an effective top6 playmaker for a long time as soon as he gets his **** together, I'll take proven, gritty, warrior type player for the length of our current window.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

I think Simmonds would help us and he'd certainly be on my "list" heading towards the trade deadline. Just not necessarily very close to the top of the list. For one thing, I don't see him as being quite as retainable as others might be. I'm thinking he'd be more like a pure rental. Mostly just because I see him as more of a uni-dimensional player - granted a dimension we need badly - but potentially one who will have a sharp dropoff at some point... he doesn't have a speed or skill element to his game, and for all that we could definitely use his grit and presence around the net, I would be leery of locking him up long-term to the kind of UFA pay day he probably deserves. There aren't a lot of players like him in the NHL anymore, I could see him commanding a bit of a premium on the UFA market. He deserves that contract. I just wouldn't necessarily want to be the team that gives it to him.

So I'd still be chasing other players ahead of him. But the market seems to be quite well-stocked at the moment... we surely have to be able to land one of these guys, don't we?

 

[Scoresberg]

I think Simmonds would help us and he'd certainly be on my "list" heading towards the trade deadline. Just not necessarily very close to the top of the list. For one thing, I don't see him as being quite as retainable as others might be. I'm thinking he'd be more like a pure rental. Mostly just because I see him as more of a uni-dimensional player - granted a dimension we need badly - but potentially one who will have a sharp dropoff at some point... he doesn't have a speed or skill element to his game, and for all that we could definitely use his grit and presence around the net, I would be leery of locking him up long-term to the kind of UFA pay day he probably deserves. There aren't a lot of players like him in the NHL anymore, I could see him commanding a bit of a premium on the UFA market. He deserves that contract. I just wouldn't necessarily want to be the team that gives it to him.

So I'd still be chasing other players ahead of him. But the market seems to be quite well-stocked at the moment... we surely have to be able to land one of these guys, don't we?

Agreed, he's gonna demand top dollar in the summer, and the team that will give him 6-7 years, @ 6.5-7M will regret it. This situation reminds me of Eriksson/Ladd situations a couple years back.

Would love to have him, but wouldn't give him more than four years.

 

[Drake744]

The unknown with Simmonds as far as potentially re-signing here is how much did he like playing for Lavy. If he was particularly fond of it, the chances may be much higher than we anticipate. Obviously money talks but if you throw a lot of money in a tax-free state at a player who really likes his coach, well.....

 

[valeriammm]

There are just certain things you don't do. I just don't think my heart would ever really be into it if I tried to cheer for Kane.

I totally get that. I was thinking about how id someone like Marchand ever got traded to Nashville (yeah right) theres no way I could ever wish him well. Some players you just cant stand no matter how good they are, even if they were on our team it would be incredibly hard to cheer for them

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

The unknown with Simmonds as far as potentially re-signing here is how much did he like playing for Lavy. If he was particularly fond of it, the chances may be much higher than we anticipate. Obviously money talks but if you throw a lot of money in a tax-free state at a player who really likes his coach, well.....

I guess for me in saying "not quite as retainable" I mean it more that we should be less interested in retaining him, as opposed to anything related to his own inclinations. He still has a track record and uniqueness that to me makes me think he deserves something in the 6x$6M range on an open UFA market. Which I would not want to sign up to for him. What I'd commit in his direction is probably not fair relative to what the open market would/should offer, if that makes sense. So in my mind he'd be more a pure rental. I wouldn't expect him to take the degree of discount necessary for me to want to retain him even if he loves the coach and everything else about playing here.

 

[Drake744]

I guess for me in saying "not quite as retainable" I mean it more that we should be less interested in retaining him, as opposed to anything related to his own inclinations. He still has a track record and uniqueness that to me makes me think he deserves something in the 6x$6M range on an open UFA market. Which I would not want to sign up to for him. What I'd commit in his direction is probably not fair relative to what the open market would/should offer, if that makes sense. So in my mind he'd be more a pure rental. I wouldn't expect him to take the degree of discount necessary for me to want to retain him even if he loves the coach and everything else about playing here.

Yeah that's fair enough, although I think 6x6 may be pushing it. Then again I'm the same guy that always likes to remind people that teams highly overpay for UFAs so maybe I shouldn't weigh in on that because that could very well be what he gets. He'll be 31 when next season starts, and at the end of a 6 year deal he'll be finishing his 17th year in the NHL (he typically plays almost every game in a season so A.) he's been durable, but B.) a lot of tread is gone off the tires) but as I like to say, all it takes is one team to overpay someone on a fat contract. see: James Neal. While something like 6x6 seems like too much for a guy like Simmonds, I can certainly see him being a guy that our staff would want to target though. Ideally, something like 4 years/20 mil, sure, that would be great. However you're right and he'll probably get more term and more money somewhere. Whether or not we make a play for him I don't know. Considering how young our main core is, I wouldn't hate a proven veteran that likes to mix it up and add a valuable net presence though.

 

[glenngineer]

You don't trade a skilled 22 year old top 6 forward for a 30 year old top 6 power forward. Simmonds will be out of the league by the time he's 35 and we'll be kicking ourselves watching Fiala somewhere else at the age of 27. We need to get a power forward type to put either between Smith and Fiala or in place of one of those two and move the other one down to the third line. We either do that or arrange the lines to have more balance. I'm not sure we need Bonino, Sissons and Watson together as they lack overall speed but have size. Swap one of them out with the second line and you may have your answer of balance with speed, size and offense. You also have Hartman that you can throw in to that mix of your top 9 so there are plenty of options if you ask me. That doesn't even include Jarnkrok either.