Proposal: Trade Proposal Thread (Part VI)

[Vachon23]

Late first.

25-30 range
vs
two picks near 50-55 ish.

Ylonen is also trending much better than Liljegren

Try to trade 2 late 2nd pick for a late 1st pick at the draft and you will never have a deal

 

[Milhouse40]

Late first.

25-30 range
vs
two picks near 50-55 ish.

Ylonen is also trending much better than Liljegren

Well....Muzzin just went down and is out after blocking a shot.
That might end the discussion

 

[nhlfan9191]

There were several Kings fans who thought Liljegren and a 1st fit from the Leafs. How is this different than Ylonen and two 2nd's? Liljegren is not trending any better than Fleury and Juulsen.

We should not be giving up two seconds on this team. Let it play out. They have no chance of winning anything serious. Buyers give up good prospects and picks. If we make the playoffs, I’ll cheer. Giving up futures for something that won’t result in a cup? Not a chance.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Yeah, Carter is amazing too.

You’re making it seem like Muzzin just once won a Cup and that’s it. Like he’s Ed Ronan. You’re ignoring the fact he’s a top pairing defenceman who averages over 40 points a year and is good defensively.

No, I like Muzzin a lot. I think you are misreading the narrative. The post you saw and replied to was about me saying Muzzin = Petry

 

[Habs Halifax]

We should not be giving up two seconds on this team. Let it play out. They have no chance of winning anything serious. Buyers give up good prospects and picks. If we make the playoffs, I’ll cheer. Giving up futures for something that won’t result in a cup? Not a chance.

Sorry, I'm not on the we should do nothing and wait boat. I'm fully aware of the risks in both situations where we wait vs trying to use assets we can spare for a 1.5 year rental in Muzzin. Think about the probability of replacing guys like Weber, Petry, Gallagher, Tatar. Yeah, our young core looks very good but we can't say that our team in 5 years is for sure better than the team we have today. And you know how I feel about our prospect pool and young core.

If you don't feel Muzzin is good and provides more reinforced shutdown ability in front of Price, then you have a point. But I consider Muzzin = Petry. And I believe our team core and direction might help us sign Stone. Try to win now AND try to win later. This is my strategy

Defense wins championships just like offense does. Weather we wait or make some moves now, we are tracking to be cup contenders like the Preds are IMO.

 

[Captain Mountain]

You have to be kidding. Have you noticed how Chaput has been playing? Not just recently. He's going to cost us games. If Weise can't do better than Chaput, then yeah, it's a lost cause. But, I'm willing to bet that Weise would come in fully motivated and energize that 4th line. And he wouldn't cost much either.

Weise isn't a center.

 

[Vachon23]

Sorry, I'm not on the we should do nothing and wait boat. I'm fully aware of the risks in both situations where we wait vs trying to use assets we can spare for a 1.5 year rental in Muzzin.

Think about the probability of replacing guys like Weber, Petry, Gallagher, Tatar. Yeah, our young core looks very good but we can't say that our team in 5 years is for sure better than the team we have today. And you know how I feel about our prospect pool and young core.

And no one say that we will not resign or we can trade him next years TDL if he don’t want to resign

 

[Habs Halifax]

And no one say that we will not resign or we can trade him next years TDL if he don’t want to resign

Exactly.

I am 100% sure that if for some reason we get lucky and face the Islanders in the 1st round (upset them as the #1 seed), and face either the Caps or Pens in the 2nd round, several people who say we should wait today will say that Bergevin was stupid for not going after Muzzin. I guess that all depends on if Muzzin gets traded and for what.

Today: Not good enough

5 years from now: Could very well be the same story.

You understand me. I'm only willing to mortgage some of the future buy trading assets we can spare. No way I'm trading our 1st or our top prospects like Suzuki, Poehling, Brook, Romanov, Primeau. Ylonen and Oloffson are two more but I might consider trading them. Juulsen and Fleury hurt as well but I rather have Petry for the next 2.5 years vs Juulsen or Fleury who may never be a top 4D.

 

[nhlfan9191]

Sorry, I'm not on the we should do nothing and wait boat. I'm fully aware of the risks in both situations where we wait vs trying to use assets we can spare for a 1.5 year rental in Muzzin.

Think about the probability of replacing guys like Weber, Petry, Gallagher, Tatar. Yeah, our young core looks very good but we can't say that our team in 5 years is for sure better than the team we have today. And you know how I feel about our prospect pool and young core.

This is exactly the trap every middle of the pack team falls into that keeps them idol or trending down. You have to weigh your realistic chance at winning. We need to have a draft with multiple first round picks, we can’t be afford to be giving them away on a pipe dream. We’re over achieving. We have vets whose windows will close absolutely. Leave it to them to pull off the incredibly small percentage of a miracle. How many teams like ours have won a cup? If they make the playoffs and win a few series, enjoy it. Don’t be buying in a sellers market because your in a playoff race. A Muzzin isn’t worth the price to acquire. That would show a lack of direction and being trigger happy. Name one team like ours that’s won a cup ever? We’ve seen some fluke close before but are you going to gamble on that?

 

[Guy Larose]

We should not be giving up two seconds on this team. Let it play out. They have no chance of winning anything serious. Buyers give up good prospects and picks. If we make the playoffs, I’ll cheer. Giving up futures for something that won’t result in a cup? Not a chance.

Nobody knows what can happen in the playoffs. Look at Vegas last year, and they weren't the first to pull something like this off either. Picks are great, but for the most part, only a few ever pan out...and that will include the 7 at the WJ this year. Whoever thinks all 7 will be stars or even make it, are delusional. Plenty of players from past WJ never even got a sniff at the NHL even while being great at the WJ. It's up to management to try and forecast that.

 

[Habs Halifax]

This is exactly the trap every middle of the pack team falls into that keeps them idol or trending down. You have to weigh your realistic chance at winning. We need to have a draft with multiple first round picks, we can’t be afford to be giving them away on a pipe dream. We’re over achieving. We have vets whose windows will close absolutely. Leave it to them to pull off the incredibly small percentage of a miracle. How many teams like ours have won a cup? If they make the playoffs and win a few series, enjoy it. Don’t be buying in a sellers market because your in a playoff race. A Muzzin isn’t worth the price to acquire. That would show a lack of direction and being trigger happy. Name one team like ours that’s won a cup ever? We’ve seen some fluke close before but are you going to gamble on that?

Not really cause I'm not trading our top prospects or a 1st. I'm trading for Muzzin from a position of strength. If some team trumps my personal best offer (Ylonen and two 2nd's) so be it. We don't go any higher. I rather the trade be Juulsen, 2nd, and Ikonen. All depends on how high they are with Juulsen.

I'm not throwing either Ylonen or Olofsson or both 2nd's in the mix till the very end. If it's not good enough, I'm ok with it.

Remember. Our two 2nd's are 55 ish. Not early 2nd round . Think about the difference in value between Romanov/Ylonen vs Olofsson and where we drafted them.

 

[Vachon23]

If the deal is good for Muzzin I make it but I’m sure they will be a bidding war for him and no way I wan’t to go in that

 

[Runner77]

Weise isn't a center.

True, he's a RW. But, you'd still have Peca to play center.

Plus, it's not as if Chaput is playing brilliantly at center.

 

[Runner77]

Nobody knows what can happen in the playoffs. Look at Vegas last year, and they weren't the first to pull something like this off either. Picks are great, but for the most part, only a few ever pan out...and that will include the 7 at the WJ this year. Whoever thinks all 7 will be stars or even make it, are delusional. Plenty of players from past WJ never even got a sniff at the NHL even while being great at the WJ. It's up to management to try and forecast that.

I dare you to find one poster in here who thinks all 7 Hab prospects at the WJC will be "stars". Everyone is aware of the failure rate of prospects, especially those drafted later. While it's not an exact science, NHL GMs have become more and more efficient at identifying and developing talent that has a reasonable chance at making the NHL. Starring at the NHL level is a whole other ballgame.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Well....Muzzin just went down and is out after blocking a shot.
That might end the discussion

 

[nhlfan9191]

Not really cause I'm not trading our top prospects or a 1st. I'm trading for Muzzin from a position of strength. If some team trumps my personal best offer (Ylonen and two 2nd's) so be it. We don't go any higher. I rather the trade be Juulsen, 2nd, and Ikonen. All depends on how high they are with Juulsen.

I'm not throwing either Ylonen or Olofsson in the mix till the very end.

Anything in the top two rounds isn’t paying from a position of strength. Those are two good picks and a good prospect. If we were a top tier team, sure. We’re not. Fans are getting carried away yet again with playoff teams with no chance of winning. You should want a cup, not a participation medal if we do make it. We aren’t even a sure thing for the playoffs yet, let alone a championship. Why are people settling for less then a 25th SC?

Nobody knows what can happen in the playoffs. Look at Vegas last year, and they weren't the first to pull something like this off either. Picks are great, but for the most part, only a few ever pan out...and that will include the 7 at the WJ this year. Whoever thinks all 7 will be stars or even make it, are delusional. Plenty of players from past WJ never even got a sniff at the NHL even while being great at the WJ. It's up to management to try and forecast that.

Vegas was a well oiled machine threw the regular season and playoffs last year. Us being in a wildcard right now is no comparison to them last year. Not sure what you’re talking about.

 

[Habs Halifax]

If the deal is good for Muzzin I make it but I’m sure they will be a bidding war for him and no way I wan’t to go in that

This is why you start with this...
- One of Juulsen or Fleury
- 2nd
- Ikonen

And at last moment before the deadline, you offer this...
- Ylonen or Olofsson
- Two 2nd's

If it's not good enough, no big deal. We tried.

 

[Guy Larose]

I dare you to find one poster in here who thinks all 7 Hab prospects at the WJC will be "stars". Everyone is aware of the failure rate of prospects, especially those drafted later. While it's not an exact science, NHL GMs have become more and more efficient at identifying and developing talent that has a reasonable chance at making the NHL. Starring at the NHL level is a whole other ballgame.

Plenty of people are saying not to touch the "big seven". Bet that at least 3 of those don't have a good career in the NHL. Every year I see people not wanting to trade some of our prospects, and tons of those have become busts.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Anything in the top two rounds isn’t paying from a position of strength. Those are two good picks and a good prospect. If we were a top tier team, sure. We’re not. Fans are getting carried away yet again with playoff teams with no chance of winning. You should want a cup, not a participation medal if we do make it. We aren’t even a sure thing for the playoffs yet, let alone a championship. Why are people settling for less then a 25th SC?



Vegas was a well oiled machine threw the regular season and playoffs last year. Us being in a wildcard right now is no comparison to them last year. Not sure what you’re talking about.

Well, Muzzin is worth what he is worth. You have to give to get. You can prefer not to make any moves and I get that. But I think a large % of our fan base things that we will for sure be better than who we are today in 5 years. I'm not so sure I think this.

Calculated risks. That's what it comes down to. Once you agree on a trade base for Muzzin, you ask for permission to talk to him and see how excited he is to play for the Habs and our team core. Ask him that if he was a UFA this off season, what would you be willing to sign for. If the conversation goes well, it give you confidence you have ability to extend him and you do extend him after July 1st if the deal fits for both sides.

 

[Guy Larose]

Anything in the top two rounds isn’t paying from a position of strength. Those are two good picks and a good prospect. If we were a top tier team, sure. We’re not. Fans are getting carried away yet again with playoff teams with no chance of winning. You should want a cup, not a participation medal if we do make it. We aren’t even a sure thing for the playoffs yet, let alone a championship. Why are people settling for less then a 25th SC?



Vegas was a well oiled machine threw the regular season and playoffs last year. Us being in a wildcard right now is no comparison to them last year. Not sure what you’re talking about.

No they weren't lol. Every expert had them out of the playoffs before the season started and were always waiting for the bubble to burst all year. They exceeded expectations all year.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Plenty of people are saying not to touch the "big seven". Bet that at least 3 of those don't have a good career in the NHL. Every year I see people not wanting to trade some of our prospects, and tons of those have become busts.

Agreed. Those who prefer not to trade any futures at all for Muzzin have pre calculated that our trending top prospects will all turn into impact players. In truth, Suzuki might not be better than Drouin and look at how some people feel about him. Poehling might be another Danault. Romanov might be just an average top 4D. Who knows.

It's silly to project our future in 5 years to be for sure better than who we are today and ignore Weber's window.

Our prospects look very good today but in 12 months once Poehling, Brook, Suzuki turn pro, it could be a different story. I like our top prospects a lot. Those who know me, know this. But it's way to dam hard to predict how good they will be. Ignoring the Weber window completely and the term left with Petry/Gallagher/Tatar/Danault is not smart IMO.

It all comes down to calculated risks.

 

[Runner77]

Plenty of people are saying not to touch the "big seven". Bet that at least 3 of those don't have a good career in the NHL. Every year I see people not wanting to trade some of our prospects, and tons of those have become busts.

Yeah, but not touching them doesn't mean permanently. And certainly, it doesn't mean they're expected to become "stars" as your post stated.

Point is, we're an organization that is lacking in quality organizational depth. Why not amass quality disposable organizational depth so that eventually, we can have those trading chips that can tilt the balance between a deal getting done on a player we really want vs. losing out.

I'd like to see us stay the course until after next summer's shopping is done. Ideally we'd need to see these players reach the AHL at least, to see what we really have and then decide if their expected ceiling is likely to be met or not.

 

[Guy Larose]

Agreed. Those who prefer not to trade any futures at all for Muzzin have pre calculated that our trending top prospects will all turn into impact players. In truth, Suzuki might not be better than Drouin and look at how some people feel about him. Poehling might be another Danault. Romanov might be just an average top 4D. Who knows.

It's silly to project our future in 5 years to be for sure better than who we are today and ignore Weber's window.

Our prospects look very good today but in 12 months once Poehling, Brook, Suzuki turn pro, it could be a different story. I like our top prospects a lot. Those who know me, know this. But it's way to dam hard to predict how good they will be. Ignoring the Weber window completely and the term left with Petry/Gallagher/Tatar/Danault is not smart IMO.

Agree and that's all I'm trying to say.

 

[Guy Larose]

Yeah, but not touching them doesn't mean permanently. And certainly, it doesn't mean they're expected to become "stars" as your post stated.

Point is, we're an organization that is lacking in quality organizational depth. Why not have quality disposable organizational depth so that eventually, we can have those trading chips that can tilt the balance between a deal getting done on a player we really want vs. losing out.

I'd like to see us stay the course until after next summer's shopping is done. Ideally we'd need to see these players reach the AHL at least, to see what we really have and then decide if their expected ceiling is likely to be met or not.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying to trade the whole farm away either.

 

[Milhouse40]

Anything in the top two rounds isn’t paying from a position of strength. Those are two good picks and a good prospect. If we were a top tier team, sure. We’re not. Fans are getting carried away yet again with playoff teams with no chance of winning. You should want a cup, not a participation medal if we do make it. We aren’t even a sure thing for the playoffs yet, let alone a championship. Why are people settling for less then a 25th SC?



Vegas was a well oiled machine threw the regular season and playoffs last year. Us being in a wildcard right now is no comparison to them last year. Not sure what you’re talking about.

Just to be fair....Yes we are in a wildcard spot...but only because we're in the best division in the NHL.
We would be fighting for 1st place of our Division if we were in the Metropolitan.....and in the west, AVS are 3rd in their division with only 50 points, Habs have 59.