Proposal: Trade Proposal Thread Part 12

[Mrb1p]

Can they?

I mean, it's not like Rantanen is established, and Jost hasn't even played in the NHL yet. Plus, MacKinnon has been somewhat stagnating after a phenomenal rookie season, although a lot of that could be attributed to poor team environment. It's kind of the equivalent of us saying we can afford to move Weber because we have Petry, Beaulieu and Sergachev coming up.

Still, this is a team that went from having a ton of riches up front, to being rather thin. And if they move both Landeskog and Duchene for a defenseman, while they may solve their issues on defense, they'll create an even bigger hole on the offense.

First Stastny and O'Reilly, then Duchene and Landeskog... No team generates top 6 talents at a good enough rate to replace all these talented guys that are leaving [or will leave] the organization.

We arent rebuilding though, so its nothing like us.

They are, and theyre most likely looking at Patrick and probably another top pick.

I mean, you could do a lot worse than Mackinnon, Rantanen, Jost and Patrick as the building blocks of your team.

Plus they more than likely get a forward back if they go after OEL.

Carolina could also be another target for them, way too much back end talent there.

Slavin, Faulk, Pesce, Mckeown, Bean, Fleury, or Hanifin will have to move.

 

[Lebowski]

We arent rebuilding though, so its nothing like us.

They are, and theyre most likely looking at Patrick and probably another top pick.

I mean, you could do a lot worse than Mackinnon, Rantanen, Jost and Patrick as the building blocks of your team.

Plus they more than likely get a forward back if they go after OEL.

Carolina could also be another target for them, way too much back end talent there.

Slavin, Faulk, Pesce, Mckeown, Bean, Fleury, or Hanifin will have to move.

Fair enough, I guess if you factor in a throw in like Duclair in a potential OEL deal, plus Patrick or Hischier at the draft, it could be doable.

 

[Mrb1p]

Fair enough, I guess if you factor in a throw in like Duclair in a potential OEL deal, plus Patrick or Hischier at the draft, it could be doable.

I mean, if theres a team in the league that is in a good position enough to lose two top line talent, its Colorado.


It just kinda sucks that theyll have to go through another rebuild, to end up with pretty much similar quality of players.

 

[Lebowski]

I mean, if theres a team in the league that is in a good position enough to lose two top line talent, its Colorado.


It just kinda sucks that theyll have to go through another rebuild, to end up with pretty much similar quality of players.

Thing is, by the time they could theoretically compete with their new core, some other players would be on the tail end of their prime, most importantly Varlamov and Johnson.

Although Varlamov hasn't been quite himself over the past two years, so he might be a non factor after all.

 

[Mrb1p]

Thing is, by the time they could theoretically compete with their new core, some other players would be on the tail end of their prime, most importantly Varlamov and Johnson.

Although Varlamov hasn't been quite himself over the past two years, so he might be a non factor after all.

Thats true. Even OEL would be older.

But with Mack and Rantanen its about next year, probably the same goes for Patrick and Jost.

More of a retool but these rarely work... Somewhat worked in CB and Edm case.

 

[Lebowski]

Thats true. Even OEL would be older.

But with Mack and Rantanen its about next year, probably the same goes for Patrick and Jost.

More of a retool but these rarely work... Somewhat worked in CB and Edm case.

I think rebuilding by tanking is proving to be a very risky attempt at becoming a winning team as well, so there's no perfect method, really.

You look at the amount of teams that spent literally a decade in the lottery, and are barely even playoffs teams today, and you realize that you can't put too much faith into prospects. Beyond tanking for draft picks, it's about who's available at your picks. Tanking for an Ovechkin/Malkin/Crosby/McDavid can turn a franchise around in itself. But these guys don't come around very often.

 

[Mrb1p]

I think rebuilding by tanking is proving to be a very risky attempt at becoming a winning team as well, so there's no perfect method, really.

You look at the amount of teams that spent literally a decade in the lottery, and are barely even playoffs teams today, and you realize that you can't put too much faith into prospects. Beyond tanking for draft picks, is about who's available at your picks. Tanking for an Ovechkin/Malkin/Crosby/McDavid can turn a franchise around in itself. But these guys don't come around very often.

Tanking for Kane, Toews, Doughty, Kopitar, Hedman and Stankos can turn it around too.

I mean, of tbe last twenty cup winners im pretty sure they all tanked ten years or so prior to their cup. True for the Hawks, true for the Kings, true for the Pens, etc.

The only teams that wont fit that bill are the Ducks, Canes and Detroit?

 

[Lebowski]

Tanking for Kane, Toews, Doughty, Kopitar, Hedman and Stankos can turn it around too.

I mean, of tbe last twenty cup winners im pretty sure they all tanked ten years or so prior to their cup. True for the Hawks, true for the Kings, true for the Pens, etc.

The only teams that wont fit that bill are the Ducks, Canes and Detroit?

Boston, New Jersey as well.

Chicago wouldn't have been a perennial contender if not for a miraculous find in the 2nd round in Duncan Keith, or Hjalmarsson in the 4th, and Crawford in the 2nd... You see where I'm going. They had the perfect timing where Keith peaked at the same time as their two young forwards. For only timing to be right, you need a fair amount of luck in the first place. And they made good use of their picks in later rounds as well. That's how they managed to stay relevant as long as they did, even after making some costly decisions like Bickell's contract that ended up costing them Terevainen.

Same thing for LA. Kopitar wasn't so much of a lottery pick (universal lottery, anyway). Guys picked 11th overall rarely turn as good as he has. But they had a lot of other things going on for them. An elite goalie, great depth from prior drafts, key trades. You could easily argue Doughty was the icing on the cake, the one that put them over the top, but he came into a team that had a solid structure already.

I think there's more examples of failed tanking rebuilds than successful ones. At the end of the day, it's all about timing and adding key pieces to the existing core. Scrapping everything and starting from scratch from the draft hasn't brought a lot of success to the teams that went into that direction. Edmonton, Atlanta/Winnipeg, Florida, Toronto, Columbus, Buffalo, NYI, Arizona...

 

[Price4Prez]

The truth actually lies somewhere in between, that is, you can win a cup by tanking and getting a top pick OR you can retool/trade/sign/draft players while making the playoffs.

The only constant with the tanking method is you definitely, in most cases, is you become a more consistent contender.

The problem here is, Montreal will NEVER be aloud or supported to tank many consecutive seasons. Additional revenue aside, the Canadiens are widely still looked upon, as the best, when debating top sport franchises. THE reference for winning. That idea is skewed because its been 25 years it has not won a championship, but never the less, I highly doubt, ownership/management will accept a losing culture for a decade.

 

[Lebowski]

The truth actually lies somewhere in between, that is, you can win a cup by tanking and getting a top pick OR you can retool/trade/sign/draft players while making the playoffs.

The only constant with the tanking method is you definitely, in most cases, is you become a more consistent contender.

The problem here is, Montreal will NEVER be aloud or supported to tank many consecutive seasons. Additional revenue aside, the Canadiens are widely still looked upon, as the best, when debating top sport franchises. THE reference for winning. That idea is skewed because its been 25 years it has not won a championship, but never the less, I highly doubt, ownership/management will accept a losing culture for a decade.

I don't think that's true, not in "most" cases, anyway.

As I said in my other post, I think there's more examples of failed tanks than successful ones, and the ones that were successful had a bunch of other factors that allowed them to make them successful. There's a huge difference between tanking for a Crosby and tanking for a Patrick.

The Habs had a lot more success than the majority of tankers. And I think a lot of that can be attributed to drafting. I think it's about finding contributing pieces where other teams usually can't find them that really puts a team over the top. Finding a Pacioretty in the late 1st, a Subban in the 2nd and a Gallagher in the 5th, for example. By finding core players in the later rounds on a somewhat consistent basis, you can maintain a winning core a lot more easily than by starting from scratch.

You look at the failure of the Oilers' rebuild before McDavid, and I think a lot of it can be blamed on poor drafting beyond the first round. No substantial contribution from anyone drafted beyond the 1st round since 2007, when their tank more or less started.

 

[Price4Prez]

I don't think that's true, not in "most" cases, anyway.

As I said in my other post, I think there's more examples of failed tanks than successful ones, and the ones that were successful had a bunch of other factors that allowed them to make them successful. There's a huge difference between tanking for a Crosby and tanking for a Patrick.

The Habs had a lot more success than the majority of tankers. And I think a lot of that can be attributed to drafting. I think it's about finding contributing pieces where other teams usually can't find them that really puts a team over the top. Finding a Pacioretty in the late 1st, a Subban in the 2nd and a Gallagher in the 5th, for example. By finding core players in the later rounds on a somewhat consistent basis, you can maintain a winning core a lot more easily than by starting from scratch.

You look at the failure of the Oilers' rebuild before McDavid, and I think a lot of it can be blamed on poor drafting beyond the first round. No substantial contribution from anyone drafted beyond the 1st round since 2007, when their tank more or less started.

Sure the Oilers team is an exception. Despite tanking for nearly a decade, they couldn't get it together.

But you can't disagree that the Pens didn't become the team they've become without Crosby and Malkin. The Hawks with Kane and Toews. The Lightning with Stamkos. The Capitals with Ovechkin and Backstrom.

These teams made other moves than panned out and gave them other complimentary quality players, but the back bone of those teams are the players mentioned above, and those came from being bottom dwellers.

Anyway, im not a supporter of any type of tank, was just pointing out that it does have that benefit.

 

[Lebowski]

Sure the Oilers team is an exception. Despite tanking for nearly a decade, they couldn't get it together.

But you can't disagree that the Pens didn't become the team they've become without Crosby and Malkin. The Hawks with Kane and Toews. The Lightning with Stamkos. The Capitals with Ovechkin and Backstrom.

These teams made other moves than panned out and gave them other complimentary quality players, but the back bone of those teams are the players mentioned above, and those came from being bottom dwellers.

Anyway, im not a supporter of any type of tank, was just pointing out that it does have that benefit.

Not just Edmonton.

Edmonton, Atlanta/Winnipeg, Florida, Toronto, Columbus, Buffalo, NYI, Arizona...

I addressed some of your points in another post.

Pittsburgh and Chicago are the exception, not the other way around. And again, their success is based on a lot of different things.

 

[crazyd]

Hanzal, better than will ever be McCarron?

If so I can understand the rumors. Get Hanzal which may be the ceilling that McCarron could attain, allows you to flip McCarron as a piece of a trade.

Worth pondering I think.

 

[Price4Prez]

Not just Edmonton.



I addressed some of your points in another post.

Pittsburgh and Chicago are the exception, not the other way around. And again, their success is based on a lot of different things.

I understand what you re saying and I do agree with you on some parts - but when I look at the current Habs team, one thing sticks out to me as sorely lacking, and that's top end talent.

The Habs had bad seasons, and drafted Price, Galchenyuk . Which are arguably our 2 best players. I think they have done a decent job at adding complementary talent as well. But finishing last for a season and getting a Matthews,Kane,Stamkos would make a world of a difference on this team. Doesn't need to be a Crosby or McDavid.

 

[Mrb1p]

I understand what you re saying and I do agree with you on some parts - but when I look at the current Habs team, one thing sticks out to me as sorely lacking, and that's top end talent.

The Habs had bad seasons, and drafted Price, Galchenyuk . Which are arguably our 2 best players. I think they have done a decent job at adding complementary talent as well. But finishing last for a season and getting a Matthews,Kane,Stamkos would make a world of a difference on this team. Doesn't need to be a Crosby or McDavid.

The best player in the last two years is not good enough? Price has made a much stronger impact than Stamkos or Matthews.

 

[Hannibal]

I'm pretty confident that MB will be all in on Duchesne.

MB always said that he's looking to trade for a young player that will help the team now and for the futur. Duchesne fits that mold. Plus, Duchesne was on team Canada and Bergevin was on the "deciding team" so we have to know that Duchesne is in MB's good book.

 

[Mrb1p]

Screw the future. Screw the plans.

Win it this year. Go all in.

 

[Milhouse40]

An don't come back until you have Duchene

 

[The Nightman]

Duchene and Landeskog are more off season trades, barring any ridiculous offers I doubt Colorado is in too much of a rush to trade either of them before the TDL. SN and TSN will hype it up to get viewers on their specials though.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Hanzal, better than will ever be McCarron?

If so I can understand the rumors. Get Hanzal which may be the ceilling that McCarron could attain, allows you to flip McCarron as a piece of a trade.

Worth pondering I think.

This made my brain hurt for a second.

 

[CrAzYNiNe]

This made my brain hurt for a second.

Why? Because you feel that it's feasible in the realm of possibilities? I would love to see McCarron be that player... but what have you seen that implies that he can be a top6 center, or even the prototypical #3C shutdown and put up points?

At 21 I would still give him 1-3 years to show if he can be an impact player in the NHL, however that window may be too late for what this team has before it for a chance at the Stanley Cup. Sometimes you need to make a move like Dallas and Calgary did for Iginla. Not saying Hanzal is Joe Nieuwendyk, but gotta make a move to make this team better.

 

[rockjngo]

Alex Galchenyuk for John Tavares.

 

[Sterling Archer]

Why? Because you feel that it's feasible in the realm of possibilities? I would love to see McCarron be that player... but what have you seen that implies that he can be a top6 center, or even the prototypical #3C shutdown and put up points?

At 21 I would still give him 1-3 years to show if he can be an impact player in the NHL, however that window may be too late for what this team has before it for a chance at the Stanley Cup. Sometimes you need to make a move like Dallas and Calgary did for Iginla. Not saying Hanzal is Joe Nieuwendyk, but gotta make a move to make this team better.

I think because of the bad grammar.

 

[Mrb1p]

Why? Because you feel that it's feasible in the realm of possibilities? I would love to see McCarron be that player... but what have you seen that implies that he can be a top6 center, or even the prototypical #3C shutdown and put up points?

At 21 I would still give him 1-3 years to show if he can be an impact player in the NHL, however that window may be too late for what this team has before it for a chance at the Stanley Cup. Sometimes you need to make a move like Dallas and Calgary did for Iginla. Not saying Hanzal is Joe Nieuwendyk, but gotta make a move to make this team better.

Read it again

Better than will ever be McCarron

 

[FerrisRox]

Why? Because you feel that it's feasible in the realm of possibilities?

No, because it's not really a sentence.