Trade Ideas Discussion Thread

[Sore Loser]

FWIW, count me out of trading Werenski as well - unless it's for a high end, top line forward under 25. Tarasenko (almost) fits into that... but, it will take a high end young player like Werenski to get him. Realistically... give up good players to get good players (see Jones for Johansen). The days of Kris Beech being the centerpiece in a trade for Jaromir Jagr are over, GMs are just too good at evaluating talent now. Save for a few. Personally, I don't make that deal. Maybe I consider it more if it guarantees Panarin staying, but I still have to think long and hard.

That being said, I don't think trading Werenski is as dire as some seem to. Seth Jones is one of the best - if not the best - defensemen in the league. When healthy (big key), Ryan Murray is a very capable top pairing guy that can eat up minutes. I think Nuti is our #3 right now personally, and I think with some PP time he would prove very capable of producing enough to make us forget Werenski over time. Savard has a few good years left, or at least a couple. Let's not overlook Harrington, who has truly shocked the hell out of me and become very reliable on the third pair. I wouldn't want him playing much more, but he isn't completely lost like Jack Johnson was.

That's five very capable guys. Round that out with Dean Kukan, who looked eye opening in his last lineup appearance, and we are still no slouches defensively. Depth defensemen are out there if you just know which stones to turn over. Ian Cole was fantastic for us last year and he came cheap... all of this is assuming that we can't keep pace until some of the prospects come over (Gavrikov) or are ready (Peeke, Carlsson). Not a bad "worst case scenario".

By no means would I "give up" on Werenski. But he has a ways to go defensively and he's going to command huge dollars after this year. Might not be a bad thing to use that depth to our advantage. If a game breaking forward is out there, I think you have to consider that contingency.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

They also brought in Trotz and added Lehner who has given them almost Vezina level goaltending. There success comes from going dead last in the league in goals against last season to #1 this season. They would be a downright scary team if they still had Tavares. Their goals for is actually down this year. Just saying they lost Tavares and got better is not telling anywhere close to the whole story.

Yeah, I pointed out Trotz.

The point still stands. You can improve in different ways even if you lose your best player.

 

[thebus88]

So, what does the Wennberg-Bobrovsky package bring back?

 

[CharlotteJacket]

Not that he matters, but Portzline on his Front and Nationwide podcast with Tom Reed and Alison Lukan just predicated the CBJ will be very active with a lot of new faces on the CBJ when this trade season is complete. He didn't give any names or details and the podcast is behind a paywall, but there's that.

 

[koteka]

Sonny for Josh Ho-Sang. Two players get a change of scenery. Milano gets to go home. We get to watch Torts deal with Josh Ho-Sang. It is a good old fashioned hockey trade.

Ho-Sang has 24 points in 53 NHL games and is currently in the AHL. Milano has 24 points in 70 NHL Games and is currently in the AHL. Both were 2014 first round picks.

 

[Sabo0290]

Not that he matters, but Portzline on his Front and Nationwide podcast with Tom Reed and Alison Lukan just predicated the CBJ will be very active with a lot of new faces on the CBJ when this trade season is complete. He didn't give any names or details and the podcast is behind a paywall, but there's that.

The podcast is free on iTunes.

 

[MAHJ71]

We already have a great topline, a great 3rd line (Jenner's line), and an underrated 4th line. We need to get that great 2nd line with an elite forward on it to match up with Toronto and Tampa.

Duchene is a great rental option that makes the lineup look great going into the playoffs. I think he is somewhat of an overrated player though, and he'll be paid like a great player when he's really just a low end 1C who is enjoying some firewagon production this year in Ottawa. Since I don't think we should pay him the anticipated ~$8.5-9m per, I'm less interested in paying the extra premium that is the hope we can sign him. Eric Staal looks to me to be the best value rental option at 2C, if the Wild decide to sell. If not him then Kevin Hayes.

The leader I want for our second line is Mark Stone, I'm a broken record on this. Ottawa is still trying to sign him but I hope they fail. And I hope the Jackets can sign him long term, he's worth that $9m per no problem - though I'm not sure about the term. He's a great rental target even if they can't sign him long term.

Here's my ideal forward lineup going into the playoffs:

Panarin-Dubois-Atkinson
Bjorkstrand-Staal-Stone
Foligno-Jenner-Anderson
Hannikainen-Nash-Sedlak

Looks good in theory but who do you plan on giving up for Staal and Stone?

 

[Columbus Jack]

Trading Werenski blows a massive hole into our lineup. You really trust Dean Kukan as a regular, and Scott Harrington getting more time? I know we love Nutivaara here, but he hasn't shown anything close to the offensive firepower Werenski has. That's alot on the plate of Jones, who teams will have an easier time focusing on. I know the response to this from some will be "Just trade for a guy", but it's not like top 4 defenseman are easy to acquire. Seth Jones wasn't even a top 4 defenseman at the time we traded for him, and we had to deal Johansen (Off a 70 point season IIRC) for him. Defenseman worth anything are hard to get, and if people want another Ian Cole type (as in, solid player but not a difference maker) it will still significantly hurt us.

The point of Werenski not being a game changer absolutely infuriates me. That is completely the shiny new toy syndrome that drives me nuts. He nearly had 50 points as a rookie, and 20 goals as a sophomore. That's not game changing? That's more points than Erik Karlsson had in his first two seasons and he was regarded as a rock star back when that was happening. Tarasenko is a hell of a player and a great goal scorer, but to act like Werenski isn't a game breaking offensive threat from the point is absolutely ridiculous. Every other team in the league would have Werenski untouchable, yet we don't because Seth Jones is here and people think Nutivaara has some next offensive level he can reach. It would be a mistake.

Panarin-Tarasenko-Jones still doesn't compete with Crosby-Malkin-Kessel, Tavares-Mathews-Marner, or Ovechkin-Backstrom-Kuznetsov.

Just as you can argue that "Tarasenko is the shiny new toy", I can argue that you are clearly overvaluing Werenski, a classic case of "our guy is better because he is our guy". Werenski the same level as Karlsson? Really? Maybe one day but my god he is not even close, it goes a lot more than just racking up secondary assists too.

For most teams defenseman are hard to come by, yes that's true but this team has plenty in the pipeline and still not game changing forwards after Panarin. You trade from a position of strength, there is Gavrikov, Peeke and others in the pipeline. Not to mention, its not as if Jones, Murray, Savard and Nuti isnt a respectable top 4. The main point here is, Werenski doesn't stop other teams from putting the puck in the net in the playoffs, if he's not doing that, why not just replace him with a guy who at least adds goals? But really we aren't exactly unleashing the flood gates if Werenski is suddenly gone. Yes it would be tough to see such a young defenseman go but you truly need to give to get in the NHL.

As far as game changer, does Werenski change games on a consistent night? I would say no, at least not consistently. Tarasenko is proven and just because Werenski had 50 points his rookie year does not mean he changes games, nor does it mean he will do it in the future. We have already seen a little decline is his effectiveness from that first season. He's a great player, but Jones is the type of defenseman that changes games, if Werenski actually started dominating on the PP, I would agree with you. It's what this team needs from him.


"Panarin-Tarasenko-Jones still doesn't compete with Crosby-Malkin-Kessel, Tavares-Mathews-Marner, or Ovechkin-Backstrom-Kuznetsov."

As for this point, I don't understand. So you are admitting that Panarin Tarasenko and Jones is better than Panarin Jones and Werenski? Tarasenko Jones and Panarin certainly competes a lot more against those top guys than the other way around. But hey might as well not yet try then? I don't really understand the point. Perhaps it's "this team still can't compete with Tarasenko." Find, fair enough, what team has the better change of ACTUALLY WINNING A PLAYOFF SERIES? I think that would be a good start after 18 years? Don't you? Or perhaps we should just keep building through the draft so we gather ALL the draft picks as we continue to take 1-4th spot in the Metro while losing every first round. I think you are missing the fact that AT SOME POINT, the window for good years of what we already built A.K.A. Cam, Foligno, and others will eventually be over and we'll be starting back from the beginning. Still with no playoff rounds won.

PS: I would like to add that the guy you trade Werenski for does not have to be Tarasenko. I think it works but it could be for someone younger, the point is we need to replace Panarin from a position of strength.

 

[NotWendell]

Nash and Milano for Dzingel.

 

[JKinCLE]

Sonny for Josh Ho-Sang. Two players get a change of scenery. Milano gets to go home. We get to watch Torts deal with Josh Ho-Sang. It is a good old fashioned hockey trade.

Ho-Sang has 24 points in 53 NHL games and is currently in the AHL. Milano has 24 points in 70 NHL Games and is currently in the AHL. Both were 2014 first round picks.

I've had this very idea for a little while now. Absolutely a good hockey trade.

 

[MAHJ71]

I've had this very idea for a little while now. Absolutely a good hockey trade.

For how long Ho-Sang has been walking on thin ice with the Islanders I would imagine this is the TDL he doesn't survive... assuming they go for it this year based on their current standing.

 

[JKinCLE]

For how long Ho-Sang has been walking on thin ice with the Islanders I would imagine this is the TDL he doesn't survive... assuming they go for it this year based on their current standing.

Agree. He will be going somewhere as part of a package most likely considering they'll be buyers. Same goes for Milano as well, since he's already asked to be traded.

But if not traded in packages, this prospect swap makes a lot of sense.

 

[KJ Dangler]

Its absolutely stupid to trade Milano . A good coach doesn't try to make every player fit his system, he utilizes a system that gets the most out of his players. Torts doesn't do that. Look at St Louis right now, and that's the road we are headed. Bjork was asked to be a different player, and his production fell off a cliff. Duclair is being asked to be a different player, gotten the same treatment as Bjork, and Milano, last year, scratched often, even though he's one of our best forwards, and his production fell off a cliff. I've never seen a player have the production Milano had last year as a rookie, in such limited time, and all the skill tried to be coached out of him. Torts turns young skill players into overthinking robots. That's why this team will remain what it is, a solid team that goes nowhere in the playoffs. For the love of god, I hope Jarmo doesn't start chasing away skilled players to fit Torts system. I know some on here think Milano is terrible, but he was 2nd in points per minute played last year, as a rookie. You develop these players, and let them play their game, your teams ceiling becomes much higher. That doesn't mean these type players shouldn't play defense, but let them play and grow, as you teach them. They get over coached , and start thinking, rather than playing.

 

[KJ Dangler]

No, you just have to worry about protecting the forward you just acquired.

And I'd protect Nuti over Savard, myself, simply because 1) Peeke looks like he'll be ready by then and 2) by the time the expansion draft rolls around, he'll be 30.

* * *​

Pretty much this, with some caveats. Specifically, I'm quite certain it's possible for a Werenski trade to ultimately be profitable for this team, but I'd want someone better and/or younger than Tarasenko. (Tarasenko would be the seventh-oldest player on this team, after Dubi, Foligno, Bob, Nash, Atkinson, and Savard.)

What forwards are we really concerned with protecting ? Pld, Cam, Anderson, and whomever the elite forward we get in return for werenski ?

Also, Tarasenko is 3 years younger than Bob, that is having a miserable year, will be 31 by the time his new contract kicks in, and wants a 7-8 yr deal. How can you be so gung ho on Bob, and then be worried about Tarasenko, who is 27 ?

 

[Viqsi]

FWIW, count me out of trading Werenski as well - unless it's for a high end, top line forward under 25.

This is where I am as well, only my requirements are slightly more strict:

• Prior and/or current season should be over 0.85 PPG (read: 70 points in a full season or more)
• Age 23 or under (can be relaxed by a year or two if production is very good)
• Center preferred (also can be relaxed if production is very good)
• No recent "down years"

The criteria for Jones were similar, except that the points requirement was slightly relaxed and being a center was required. These aren't hard and fast rules, as there's more considerations that go into it, but they serve as decent rules of thumb.

A good example of the kind of player that would qualify? PLD.

A player that would qualify as "I'd accept him, although he's just outside the parameters"? Jonathan Huberdeau (he's just over a point per game). Other examples of acceptable players include guys like Dylan Larkin, or Sasha Barkov, or Mathew Barzal.

Examples that don't pass the test include Vladimir Tarasenko (too old, and having a down year), Vincent Trocheck (not producing enough for me to be happy with his being 25), and Evgeni Kuznetzov (he's 26). I'd be back-and-forth on guys like Victor Arvidsson (age, but producing well) and Bo Horvat (below production threshold, but pretty awesome in his own right). Guys who technically meet the criteria but I'd be wary about would be folks who've been subthreshold previously but are doing well this year - y'know, folks like Max Domi and Sam Reinhart.

I claim justification in asking for that much because in point production alone, Werenski is #27 in the League in defensive scoring (min 20 games played) - and he's the youngest by a notable margin of everyone in the top 30 (the only player who's within a year of his age is #5 Thomas Chabot - half a year older), not to mention the eighth-youngest in the top 100 on that list (the younger folks are #33 Rasmus Dahlin, #52 Filip Hronek, #58 Miro Heiskanen, #60 Mikhail Sergachev, #73 Jakob Chychrun, #79 Dennis Cholowski, and #84 Henri Jokiharju). Not to mention that many scoring defensemen don't really come into their own until they're 22 or 23 or 24, and Werenski's juuuuust outside that range...

 

[Viqsi]

What forwards are we really concerned with protecting ? Pld, Cam, Anderson, and whomever the elite forward we get in return for werenski ?

So you don't see any problem with losing guys like Bjorkstrand, Jenner, Duclair, Stenlund, Abramov, Texier, or Davidsson. Or anyone else we might pick up along the way.

Yes, every single one of those names are valid. Yes, that explicitly includes Abramov and Texier and Davidsson - and a bunch of other prospects as well - because they are signed to NHL professional contracts and playing in professional-level leagues the NHL has agreements with. They count. The top-quality forward prospects we don't yet have to worry about are Foudy, Bemstrom, Marchenko, and Fix-Wolansky - and in all of those cases save Marchenko, if we sign them this season (EDIT: or if we play Foudy in Cleveland at all, since he's already signed), we automatically have to start worrying. (Marchenko's in the same situation as Gavrikov - if we sign him to an NHL contract this season and bring him to Cleveland, then he counts. Can be avoided by PTOing him in Cleveland, like we did with Werenski and might consider doing with Gavrikov and/or any of the three goaltenders.)

Also, Tarasenko is 3 years younger than Bob, that is having a miserable year, will be 31 by the time his new contract kicks in, and wants a 7-8 yr deal. How can you be so gung ho on Bob, and then be worried about Tarasenko, who is 27 ?

Two easy reasons:
1) Goaltenders have a longer career than forwards (this is a proven phenomenon), but mostly...
2) You're fabricating my position out of thin air. I've actually been very frustrated with Bob lately, and if you were paying any attention at all you'd have noticed that.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

Just as you can argue that "Tarasenko is the shiny new toy", I can argue that you are clearly overvaluing Werenski, a classic case of "our guy is better because he is our guy". Werenski the same level as Karlsson? Really? Maybe one day but my god he is not even close, it goes a lot more than just racking up secondary assists too.

For most teams defenseman are hard to come by, yes that's true but this team has plenty in the pipeline and still not game changing forwards after Panarin. You trade from a position of strength, there is Gavrikov, Peeke and others in the pipeline. Not to mention, its not as if Jones, Murray, Savard and Nuti isnt a respectable top 4. The main point here is, Werenski doesn't stop other teams from putting the puck in the net in the playoffs, if he's not doing that, why not just replace him with a guy who at least adds goals? But really we aren't exactly unleashing the flood gates if Werenski is suddenly gone. Yes it would be tough to see such a young defenseman go but you truly need to give to get in the NHL.

As far as game changer, does Werenski change games on a consistent night? I would say no, at least not consistently. Tarasenko is proven and just because Werenski had 50 points his rookie year does not mean he changes games, nor does it mean he will do it in the future. We have already seen a little decline is his effectiveness from that first season. He's a great player, but Jones is the type of defenseman that changes games, if Werenski actually started dominating on the PP, I would agree with you. It's what this team needs from him.


"Panarin-Tarasenko-Jones still doesn't compete with Crosby-Malkin-Kessel, Tavares-Mathews-Marner, or Ovechkin-Backstrom-Kuznetsov."

As for this point, I don't understand. So you are admitting that Panarin Tarasenko and Jones is better than Panarin Jones and Werenski? Tarasenko Jones and Panarin certainly competes a lot more against those top guys than the other way around. But hey might as well not yet try then? I don't really understand the point. Perhaps it's "this team still can't compete with Tarasenko." Find, fair enough, what team has the better change of ACTUALLY WINNING A PLAYOFF SERIES? I think that would be a good start after 18 years? Don't you? Or perhaps we should just keep building through the draft so we gather ALL the draft picks as we continue to take 1-4th spot in the Metro while losing every first round. I think you are missing the fact that AT SOME POINT, the window for good years of what we already built A.K.A. Cam, Foligno, and others will eventually be over and we'll be starting back from the beginning. Still with no playoff rounds won.

PS: I would like to add that the guy you trade Werenski for does not have to be Tarasenko. I think it works but it could be for someone younger, the point is we need to replace Panarin from a position of strength.

Jesus, no Werenski is not Karlsson. I didn't say that. I said he has out performed Karlsson's first two seasons in the NHL (which is accurate) and everybody was going crazy for him at the time. Yet, nobody here is excited for Werenski anymore. Why? Because we have Jones. It makes no sense to me. I didn't say he was going to be the next Karlsson.

(BTW secondary assists, you know, still count? And it makes a lot of sense for a defenseman to have secondary assists.)

We have plenty of D in the pipeline? Like who? Gavrikov, who seems to be pretty good. People are indifferent over Peeke, but even if you like him he's a few years away. Carlsson is busting. Who else? That's not plenty. Jones, Savard, Murray, and Nuti is OK as a top 4...but with one injury it becomes very weak, especially if its to Jones or Murray. Heck, it's very weak NOW if we lose Jones or Murray, and that's still with Werenski. That is very unstable and not trustworthy to go forward with.

Yeah, I would say its rare for Werenski to change and take over games on a consistent basis. You know why? He's 21 years old. People advocating trading him because "give to get" seem to forget/not care that his first 3 years are one of the best for a defenseman in modern NHL history. Seth Jones didn't start taking over and dominating games until two years ago/last year, when he was 22/23 and in his 5th/6th full NHL season. We gave him time because of how much potential he had. Werenski doesn't get that luxury because we have Artemi Panarin? It's funny how you say just because Werenski got 50 points as a rookie as if everyone ahead of him that year wasn't at least 3 years older than him. Seems pretty game changing to me.

I was trying to be a devils advocate. No, I'd personally rather have Werenski in that group of three, but in the hypothetical that we DID make the move for Tarasenko, it still isn't better than the group of three from other teams. I also believe Werenski helps this team win a round more than Tarasenko, as Tarasenko is a better goal scorer (way better), but Werenski is better at everything else.

I guess it makes no sense for me to continue arguing this as nobody is changing their mind (including myself). So, I'll leave the Werenski trade talk with this.

 

[blahblah]

Just as you can argue that "Tarasenko is the shiny new toy", I can argue that you are clearly overvaluing Werenski, a classic case of "our guy is better because he is our guy". Werenski the same level as Karlsson? Really? Maybe one day but my god he is not even close, it goes a lot more than just racking up secondary assists too..

I'm kind of cranky today, so... I award you zero points and may God have mercy upon your soul.

Werenski is a rarity in the NHL. He is not being over valued. Actually most around here, like you, are under valuing him (or at least being cautious in their appraisal). He has the potential to be a future HoF'er. He's NOT Karlsson. He doesn't have to be. In the spirit of V, if I hear more crap about secondary assists I'm going to burn these boards down to the ground.

It's taken Jones a few years to get to the level he has and Werenski will continue to improve. Assuming injuries don't come into play, he will be one of the better defensemen in the league. He is a franchise player in his own right. To suggest this is homerism is ludicrous.

Having said all that I'd be ok moving him in the right deal. I'm not sure that is for an "elite" forward. I also haven't see the "right" deal here. I think we had a chance to make one hell of a deal for both team during the offseason with the Sens. That is likely gone at this point. We could have traded youth to give us a real window for about 5 years and the Sens could have gotten a lot younger and added a lot of skill.

Honestly Tarasenko isn't that guy for me (as return for Werenski). I don't think it gets us any closer to a Cup. I say that with the realization that he's one of my top 5 forwards in the league, I love the guy.

 

[MoeBartoli]

We already have a great topline, a great 3rd line (Jenner's line), and an underrated 4th line. We need to get that great 2nd line with an elite forward on it to match up with Toronto and Tampa.

Here's my ideal forward lineup going into the playoffs:

Panarin-Dubois-Atkinson
Bjorkstrand-Staal-Stone
Foligno-Jenner-Anderson
Hannikainen-Nash-Sedlak

I agree this would be an attractive line-up. Like you, I’ve felt that the 71-38-77 line is moe appropriately a 3rd line and the missing link is a second line. Bjork fits here because he’s a structured and skilled offensive player which works with guys like Stone and Staal. And I’m all for a Dubi-free 4th line.

 

[3074326]

A poster over on HF Pens said what I have pasted below, I can't view the article. What do you think?

FWIW, TIOPS is saying that PIT, CLB and CAR are working on a three way deal whereby Pens would give up a first and Brass and in return we get Ferland and Riley Nash with salary retained...CAR would get a first and second round pick (and have to retain on Nash) and CLB would get Brass and have to give up the second (and Nash obviously)....also says Brass gave a soft trade request about two weeks ago...also says teams like Olek as a depth 6/7 D man but he’s not generating much interest re paying assets for him...

EDIT: For simplification purposes -

PIT - Ferland, Riley Nash (retained)
CBJ - Brassard
CAR - 1st (PIT), 2nd (CBJ)

 

[MAHJ71]

A poster over on HF Pens said what I have pasted below, I can't view the article. What do you think?

My reaction:

 

[Viqsi]

A poster over on HF Pens said what I have pasted below, I can't view the article. What do you think?



EDIT: For simplification purposes -

PIT - Ferland, Riley Nash (retained)
CBJ - Brassard
CAR - 1st (PIT), 2nd (CBJ)

Given that we're not the ones retaining on Nash? I'd go for it. We don't have our 2nd this year, tho, so I suspect that it's a fabrication rather than a rumor.

 

[blahblah]

A poster over on HF Pens said what I have pasted below, I can't view the article. What do you think?

EDIT: For simplification purposes -

PIT - Ferland, Riley Nash (retained)
CBJ - Brassard
CAR - 1st (PIT), 2nd (CBJ)

I think we get out of Nash's contract at the cost of a 2nd round pick at the cost of about 500k for a Brassard rental. He's already been paid his bonus and his salary is 1 million. We can also look at another center come the off season. I have no idea what the above poster is talking about.

Where do I sign up? This seems like a no brainer if true.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Absent this year's second, if that could be in 2020, yeah, make it so, Wesley.

Should I know what TIOPS is?

 

[Xoggz22]

So you don't see any problem with losing guys like Bjorkstrand, Jenner, Duclair, Stenlund, Abramov, Texier, or Davidsson. Or anyone else we might pick up along the way.

Yes, every single one of those names are valid. Yes, that explicitly includes Abramov and Texier and Davidsson - and a bunch of other prospects as well - because they are signed to NHL professional contracts and playing in professional-level leagues the NHL has agreements with. They count. The top-quality forward prospects we don't yet have to worry about are Foudy, Bemstrom, Marchenko, and Fix-Wolansky - and in all of those cases save Marchenko, if we sign them this season (EDIT: or if we play Foudy in Cleveland at all, since he's already signed), we automatically have to start worrying. (Marchenko's in the same situation as Gavrikov - if we sign him to an NHL contract this season and bring him to Cleveland, then he counts. Can be avoided by PTOing him in Cleveland, like we did with Werenski and might consider doing with Gavrikov and/or any of the three goaltenders.)

I need to go back and check but I don't believe you are completely correct. I believe the "Professional" was signed and playing in North America (ie. NHL, AHL) or an age stipulation (like second contract). Certainly could be wrong but something doesn't sound right about that. I recall somethign about the ELCs and having 2 years but the slide years counted if kept in Junior or overseas. ???

Either way, there will be more to worry about than just Cam, Anderson and PLD