Speculation: Trade and Free Agency Talk XLIII

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Dr Jan Itor

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Long lists of players that do nothing to prove that it's easy to trade for a top 6 center. This is what I said wouldn't be worth your time.



Next 5 years, not next 5 months. Pretty important distinction when everyone here is talking about urgency and getting a center to help the team now.

Top 6 centers are easy to get, well actually I'm just saying they do get moved once in a while. Gotta get a top 6 center yesterday or it's unacceptable, but chances are similar players will be moved in the next 5 years. Looking at top 6 centers and we're listing guys like Derek Grant, Andrew Shaw, Alex Kerfoot. Guerin should have done something by now, but we're going to include all centers traded before he was a GM here to hold it against him. I've lost count of how many times the goalposts have been moved in this discussion.

Let's make it simple. The top 6 centers on your lists that have been moved during Guerin's tenure were Dubois and Trochek. He was in on both. We don't know what his offer was for either, but we know we weren't equipped to win Dubois.

So he missed out on Trochek for whatever reasons we may never know. In two years here, you can maybe make the argument that he could have gotten Trochek. That's it.

And you continue to try to tie 2 separate arguments together. We can probably close it up now.
 

DemidovSaveUs

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Lose Soucy in ED

Resign:
Kap $8M x 8
Fiala $6.5M x 6
Ek $4.25M x 4
Hartman $2.67M x 3

Sign:
Granlund $5M x 3
Menell (ELC)

View attachment 419262

Roughly $2M in space for extras.

If the cap doesn’t raise for the 22-23 season, there would be some problems with the Kahkonen and Greenway extensions, but those could be alleviated with Talbot, Foligno, and/or Dumba trades.

There is the problem of 4 RHD, so I’m not sure if that’d work, but it does allow us to keep the Top 4 around for at least 1 good season. You can replace Granlund for any other FA center too, I just kind of wanted to show that everyone can be re-signed to long extensions plus a FA center.
I don’t like the idea of paying a guy whose produced as a 3rd line RW the past two seasons 5 million a year to be our number one center
 
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Dr Jan Itor

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Dec 10, 2009
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Buyout Parise
Lose Soucy in ED

Resign:
Kap $8M x 8
Fiala $6.5M x 6
Ek $4.25M x 4
Hartman $2.67M x 3

Sign:
Granlund $5M x 3
Menell (ELC)

View attachment 419262

Roughly $2M in space for extras.

If the cap doesn’t raise for the 22-23 season, there would be some problems with the Kahkonen and Greenway extensions, but those could be alleviated with Talbot, Foligno, and/or Dumba trades.

There is the problem of 4 RHD, so I’m not sure if that’d work, but it does allow us to keep the Top 4 around for at least 1 good season. You can replace Granlund for any other FA center too, I just kind of wanted to show that everyone can be re-signed to long extensions plus a FA center.

We’ll call this ‘Plan Q’.
 
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AKL

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And you continue to try to tie 2 separate arguments together. We can probably close it up now.

Which two separate arguments am I tying together? The one where it's easy to trade for a top 6 center, and the one where Guerin should have done something by now? I quite think they actually tie in very well.

Still waiting for you to prove it's easy to trade for a top 6 center, btw
 

AKL

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My only point in posting the list was to get a better idea of what the frequency for NHL center trades was over the course of a few years. It wasn't to point to this guy or that guy as a specific case where Guerin (or Fenton, or Fletcher) missed out.

And again: if there isn't a good market to acquire the player we need, fine. But Guerin's other moves don't indicate that he thinks that's the case, which is my real complaint. Since taking the job his largest decisions have been:

1.) Extending Spurgeon with a full NMC
2.) Trading Zucker for a 1st and Addison to make for Kaprizov
3.) Extending Brodin with a full NMC
4.) Choosing to hold onto Dumba with the Seattle expansion coming up
5.) Trading away Staal and replacing him with some mix of Johansson, Bonino and Bjugstad

I fully admit that I don't know what the market for centers really looks like, but I'd assume that Guerin does. If it's that bleak why not be more proactive with the other elephant in the room: the expansion draft? If his roster has a crippling weakness that isn't fixable in the short term, how can that not inform what he's been doing for the last year?

I'm not even arguing against Guerin's failures with the Spurgeon extension and mishandling the Dumba situation. I'm talking specifically about the top 6 center (lack thereof) situation. I can understand how they play off each other, but I am talking specifically about the idea of urgency in finding a center, and the idea that it should have happened by now, or that it has to happen this summer.

I think the Spurgeon extension was a mistake because there's no need for him where we're going, that is consistent with my opinion that there doesn't need to be urgency in finding a top 6 center. Making one bad decision (the Spurgeon extension) doesn't mean making another bad decision (rushing a patchwork center) is justifiable.
 

Spurgeon

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I don’t like the idea of paying a guy whose produced as a 3rd line RW the past two seasons 5 million a year to be our number one center

If we could get him for cheaper, I really think they’d need to consider it. He’s never clicked in Nashville, but we know that he worked here playing with Staal and Zucker. He has the offensive abilities to be successful and he’s not a slouch on defense either. I think he’d pair up better than Danault would with a guy like Kaprizov. He’ll also very likely be cheaper.

I didn’t think Staal was going to be anything special and he looked washed when he came here, but then he showed up and was a 1C for us. Granlund was never a 1C, but he definitely was a 1st line player. I think he has the potential to return to form on a short-term deal.
 

Bazeek

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I'm not even arguing against Guerin's failures with the Spurgeon extension and mishandling the Dumba situation. I'm talking specifically about the top 6 center (lack thereof) situation. I can understand how they play off each other, but I am talking specifically about the idea of urgency in finding a center, and the idea that it should have happened by now, or that it has to happen this summer.

I think the Spurgeon extension was a mistake because there's no need for him where we're going, that is consistent with my opinion that there doesn't need to be urgency in finding a top 6 center. Making one bad decision (the Spurgeon extension) doesn't mean making another bad decision (rushing a patchwork center) is justifiable.
I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise, though several of us probably have pretty different ideas about what qualifies as a bad decision.
 

AKL

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I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise, though several of us probably have pretty different ideas about what qualifies as a bad decision.

You're basing your opinion of the center situation, at least partially, off the fact that he extended Spurgeon, Brodin. You can't imagine how he could re-sign those defensemen, and then not immediately go out and upgrade the center situation. You think re-signing those guys is a sign that he's trying to contend for a Cup right now.

This is what a rebuild looks like when you don't bottom out. When you keep certain players around to try to build a certain type of culture through a rebuild, that's what we're looking at right now. We are in a rebuild. Remember all the conversations where people said, we can't rebuild like Buffalo or Edmonton because they eternally suck? Bottoming out isn't the answer? Yeah, those people are getting their wish. Some people just want to jump the gun because Kaprizov is good, and our defense is aging.
 

kegstandbyme

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I still think the Zucker trade was one of Billy’s better moves. Calen should be damn good going forward and the 1st rounder is another great piece. Looks even better with the stagnant cap.
 

ctmagic

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Can we just find an upgrade to Rask like right away? I’d take a Hoffman trade right about now just to keep Rask off the pp.
:laugh:
 

AKL

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Can we just find an upgrade to Rask like right away? I’d take a Hoffman trade right about now just to keep Rask off the pp.
:laugh:

We have an upgrade to Rask. It's Marco Rossi.
 

Dr Jan Itor

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Which two separate arguments am I tying together? The one where it's easy to trade for a top 6 center, and the one where Guerin should have done something by now? I quite think they actually tie in very well.

Still waiting for you to prove it's easy to trade for a top 6 center, btw

Yes, those exact separate arguments.
 

Bazeek

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You're basing your opinion of the center situation, at least partially, off the fact that he extended Spurgeon, Brodin. You can't imagine how he could re-sign those defensemen, and then not immediately go out and upgrade the center situation. You think re-signing those guys is a sign that he's trying to contend for a Cup right now.

This is what a rebuild looks like when you don't bottom out. When you keep certain players around to try to build a certain type of culture through a rebuild, that's what we're looking at right now. We are in a rebuild. Remember all the conversations where people said, we can't rebuild like Buffalo or Edmonton because they eternally suck? Bottoming out isn't the answer? Yeah, those people are getting their wish. Some people just want to jump the gun because Kaprizov is good, and our defense is aging.
That's really not what I'm saying. I'm saying that based on those moves I'd assume a GM would focus on accomplishing one of two things (if not both):

1.) Acquiring a center.
2.) Moving Dumba to avoid losing him for nothing to expansion.

I've generally focused on 1 because I suspect the window to do 2 has largely (though not entirely) closed. It could still happen, in which case I've got no major beef... but signs are starting to point toward it not happening. He needs to do one of those things or yes, he's not very good at his job.
 

AKL

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Yes, those exact separate arguments.

1) You have failed to provide any evidence that it's easy to acquire top 6 centers
2) The only top 6 centers moved in his time here were Trochek and Dubois, he was in on both, lost out for various reasons.

There, we've addressed both separately now, and you were incorrect on both points.
 

AKL

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guess you missed the “right away” part. Want something to help a playoff push. #chipandachair

There is no "acquiring someone to help with the playoff push this year". That doesn't exist outside of fans imagination. Guerin has said he's not looking at rentals and he has a long term plan/approach.
 

AKL

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That's really not what I'm saying. I'm saying that based on those moves I'd assume a GM would focus on accomplishing one of two things (if not both):

1.) Acquiring a center.

I've generally focused on 1 because I suspect the window to do 2 has largely (though not entirely) closed. It could still happen, in which case I've got no major beef... but signs are starting to point toward it not happening. He needs to do one of those things or yes, he's not very good at his job.

He is trying to find a top 6 center. Not sure what the issue is.
 

Dr Jan Itor

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1) You have failed to provide any evidence that it's easy to acquire top 6 centers
2) The only top 6 centers moved in his time here were Trochek and Dubois, he was in on both, lost out for various reasons.

There, we've addressed both separately now, and you were incorrect on both points.

And your citing our inability to do so doesn’t prove that it’s hard. It proves that we haven’t been competent at it.
 

AKL

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And your citing our inability to do so doesn’t prove that it’s hard. It proves that we haven’t been competent at it.

You were the one that said you could prove it's easy.

Still waiting on that proof by the way.
 

AKL

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At this point this is just an Abbot and Costello routine.

You're either making the assumption that he's not trying to find a center, or you have an issue with timing/difficulty/availability.

When I address one, you and the other guy want to flip and talk about the other one. And neither of you nor anyone else has done anything to support the idea that it should have been easy to do by now.
 
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