Toronto sweeps Ottawa in 2001 or Anaheim sweeps Detroit in 2003, which was more shocking?

[Johnny Engine]

Usually picking on grammar in an Internet forum is poor form, but consistent use of passive voice is a common way to attribute your own opinions to a broad consensus.

 

[Doctor No]

I don’t doubt many of you were alive in 2001, but many of your responses here suggest you didn’t “live” 2001, didn’t watch the Leafs and/or Sens game after game that year, didn’t follow the team mood day after day. And if you did, all of that appears to be long forgotten, and understandably so. A neutral observer has no reason to remember those days and that series, and a Senators fan wishes to actively forget. Your responses suggest something akin to a historian looking at old data of the Peloponnesian War, and then piecing together a puzzle forcefully until you have a narrative that explains the overall present-day reputation of the past Greek armies.

Of course, someone "living 2001" as a Leafs fan is subject to the narrative biases that result, and probably looks for ways to find it to be more special than it actually was.

It was special, undoubtedly. But you're biased.

It's the same reason that I view 2001 as so amazing as an Avalanche fan.

 

[trentmccleary]

In the early playoff series in the BOO, Toronto's game was characterized by strong defensive efforts. Lots of shot blocking, diving to break up cross ice passes and at times, basically putting all 5 defenders in a basketball key around the net to block shots. It was very frustrating, very successful and probably pretty grueling for the players. It wasn't something that they could maintain in the regular season.

Shayne Corson, described as basically useless above, was given a lot of praise at the time for being the player who shut down Alexei Yashin in 2001.

 

[streitz]

Roberts was seen as a great signing because of what he did in those playoff years with the Leafs. We eventually came to appreciate his regular season play too, but not until after the 2001 playoffs. The question before the 2001 playoffs was whether a 34 year old Roberts was too old and banged up to make an impact on the playoffs. He recently missed an entire year to injury. He was long past his prime Calgary years.

While there was some initial joy over his and Corson’s signings in the summer of 2000, that was only because they were the “best” available UFAs in a weak UFA class, and their paltry $2-2.5 million annual salaries reflected that. There was no UFA Curtis Joseph that year, no UFA Mogilny or UFA Roenick. The real stars and difference makers. Roberts and Corson were the best of a lowly bunch, they were from Toronto, and the Leafs needed grit after a thrashing by the Devils the year earlier. So might as well sign them. But did they have any skill?

Roberts was in fact seen as a reason why the Leafs fell in the standings in 2000-2001. The Leafs were too old and too slow, it seemed. Steve Thomas had suddenly regressed, though not surprising for a 37 year old. Gone were their promising youth of 1-2 years ago, and the remaining youth they did have in Nikolai Antripov seemed to stop developing. The rest of the team was coined to be a mess. Jonas Hoglund was Mats Sundin’s backpack, Darcy Tucker was Sideshow Bob, and Corson was seen as no better. An old Roberts with a banged up body himself was seen as an epitome of why the Leafs took a step back in 2001.

I hope you’re not suggesting the Leafs and everyone else knew they had a playoff warrior in Roberts on the eve of the 2001 playoffs who was capable of being a series difference maker against powerhouse Ottawa. With the benefit of hindsight, we all know Roberts rekindled his reputation as a playoff warrior, and his reputation for taking care of his body as an old man was so wonderful that he cashed in on his time in Toronto by making a career out of this reputation post-NHL. We also all know now that the early 2000’s Senators were abysmal failures, gutless, soft, the very opposite of what a playoff team in the early 2000’s should look like. A beating by the same team year after year after year after year will make that clear. But there was nothing to suggest any of this at the time.

I don’t doubt many of you were alive in 2001, but many of your responses here suggest you didn’t “live” 2001, didn’t watch the Leafs and/or Sens game after game that year, didn’t follow the team mood day after day. And if you did, all of that appears to be long forgotten, and understandably so. A neutral observer has no reason to remember those days and that series, and a Senators fan wishes to actively forget. Your responses suggest something akin to a historian looking at old data of the Peloponnesian War, and then piecing together a puzzle forcefully until you have a narrative that explains the overall present-day reputation of the past Greek armies.

You can write as many essay's on the 2001 series as you want, it wasn't that big of an upset.

Also 'recently' missed a whole season....As in 4 years earlier, lol.

 

[FerrisRox]

Roberts was seen as a great signing because of what he did in those playoff years with the Leafs. We eventually came to appreciate his regular season play too, but not until after the 2001 playoffs. The question before the 2001 playoffs was whether a 34 year old Roberts was too old and banged up to make an impact on the playoffs. He recently missed an entire year to injury. He was long past his prime Calgary years.

It's pretty funny you come into this thread talking about revisionist history and then present this piece of of short fiction.

Roberts led the Maple Leafs in goal scoring that year with 29. He was second on the team in points trailing only Sundin. Of course people expected him to to be a valued part of their post-season team. Why would anyone think their top goal scorer and best physical player wouldn't be a key factor in a series against a soft team? It's idiotic to suggest otherwise.

As for him recently missing an entire year to injury... The season he missed was the 1996-97 season. What on earth are you talking about?

 

[Eisen]

And we shouldn't forget that beating Detroit in 2003 was much harder than beating any Ottawa team.

 

[NyQuil]

And we shouldn't forget that beating Detroit in 2003 was much harder than beating any Ottawa team.

Well, in 2003 Ottawa were the President’s Trophy winners and went to the last 2 minutes of Game 7 in the ECFs against the Devils.

That was the best team Ottawa ever had IMO.

I think a lot of people were hoping for Ottawa-Detroit but obviously New Jersey earned their place and Anaheim had Giguere.

 

[Eisen]

Well, in 2003 Ottawa were the President’s Trophy winners and went to the last 2 minutes of Game 7 in the ECFs against the Devils.

That was the best team Ottawa ever had IMO.

I think a lot of people were hoping for Ottawa-Detroit but obviously New Jersey earned their place and Anaheim had Giguere.

That's true, and they were a good team. But Detroit in 2003 was had a roster that I'd say compares favourably against Ottawa. But, of course, the game is played on ice and not on paper. And Detroit's January was far from convinving.

 

[c9777666]

The interesting thing is that both of these playoff series almost didn't happen.

Toronto finished only 2 points ahead of 8th place Carolina and could have played the Devils in round 1 instead of 2. Detroit in 2003 blew a chance to finish #1 in the West with a game 82 OT loss at Chicago and Dallas/Anaheim could have taken place a round earlier.

 

[c9777666]

In 2001, Ottawa was seen as possibly the best team in the NHL outside of Colorado and NJ. It showed in the standings, it showed in their goal differential. Vast majority picked Ottawa over Toronto before the series. They looked at the return of Yashin after sitting out a season, seen at that moment as the most dangerous player on either team. They looked at the emergence of Hossa as a completely different player than the one who knocked out Berard’s eyes the year before. They looked at the addition of Havlat, who was having an impactful rookie season as someone who wasn’t part of the series a year earlier. They looked at the emergence of Wade Redden and the addition of Karel Rachunek, all as reasons why 2001 Ottawa was nothing at all like 2000 Ottawa.

IDK if they were seen as the best team outside of Colorado/NJ. Were they seen as better than Detroit (more wins, more points, better playoff pedigree)? They had literally the same record as another division champion- Washington.

Heck, Buffalo in their own division had more wins and more proven in the playoffs (outside Toronto and New Jersey, they were the one other team that beat Ottawa in the playoffs from 1999-2004) and still had Hasek. And let's not discount another Northeast Division team- Pittsburgh (more wins, Lemieux/Jagr, better playoff track record, more offensive punch). That was a tough division (and 5th place Boston barely missed on a tiebreaker with Carolina.

I don't think Ottawa was seen as a slam dunk pick to make the Conference Finals. Maybe to beat Toronto, but even if that game 1 OT goes differently, they might have still lost to Buffalo/Pittsburgh.

Or maybe Ottawa simply matched up better with BUF/PIT than TOR.

 

[BayStreetBully]

In the early playoff series in the BOO, Toronto's game was characterized by strong defensive efforts. Lots of shot blocking, diving to break up cross ice passes and at times, basically putting all 5 defenders in a basketball key around the net to block shots. It was very frustrating, very successful and probably pretty grueling for the players. It wasn't something that they could maintain in the regular season.

Shayne Corson, described as basically useless above, was given a lot of praise at the time for being the player who shut down Alexei Yashin in 2001.

Yep. Corson was phenomenal in that series. Great vindication for a player who was absolutely vilified during the regular season, and seen as emblematic of the fall of those Leafs that year- slow, old and distracted, they said. Crucified for dragging his brother in law Tucker down with him as well, they said. Tucker was sidetracked all year in defending his wife’s brother, they said.

Obviously no one knew it at the time given how the Leafs’ regular season went that year, but Corson and Roberts were great pickups in hindsight, and crucial in defeating the heavily-favoured Ottawa Senators.

 

[ShelbyZ]

Has to be the Ducks.

I mean you have them completely shutting down the vaunted Red Wings team that won the year before, but with some minor tweaks or even arguable improvements:

-Everyone is a year older (a good thing in the case of Datsyuk, etc.)
-rookie Zetterberg in for Devereaux (down to the same line)
-Joseph for Hasek
-Schneider, Woolley and Bykov in for Duchesne, Olausson and Fischer (who was still with the team but hurt)

 

[Hobnobs]

Is this a rhetorical question? Of course its the 8th seed sweeping the defending cup champs.

 

[Johnny Engine]

Is this a rhetorical question? Of course its the 8th seed sweeping the defending cup champs.

The Ducks were the 7th seed, not 8th, which I suppose is where OP got his comparison. But that (and a complete inability for the #2 seed to beat their opponent's goalie) is where the similarity ends, for sure.

 

[LeafsNation75]

The Ducks were the 7th seed, not 8th, which I suppose is where OP got his comparison. But that (and a complete inability for the #2 seed to beat their opponent's goalie) is where the similarity ends, for sure.

Yes my comparison was the fact that Toronto and Anaheim were both #7 seeds in the playoffs those years.

 

[Hobnobs]

The Ducks were the 7th seed, not 8th, which I suppose is where OP got his comparison. But that (and a complete inability for the #2 seed to beat their opponent's goalie) is where the similarity ends, for sure.

Oh that's right. Ducks were the 7th seed that year. Wings lost 1st seed because of an OT loss in the last game while Stars won theirs iirc. Anyway, my point still stands.

 

[HawkNut]

Everything about that 2003 Anaheim team was surprising. There's been great goaltender play in the postseason since then, but not like Giguere that year.