Toronto Maple Leafs reaping benefits of good drafting and development

[Mapleleafs Fan*]

The real weakness for our team had been the real growth. We haven't utilized the full potential of Kadri yet. We are afraid of putting Rielly on 1st line despite of showing a lot of promise. Give them time and the place they deserve and they will perform their best by learning through mistakes. Great players are smart and the more the mistakes they make the more they learn from those mistakes. That's why they are rated A in potential. They can really learn at very high pace.

That said, we have quite a lot of quality players in late picks. Carter Verhaeghe, Connor Brown, Andreas Johnson, Josh Leivo. With the right training these guys can be studs. I see a Shea Weber quality in Rielly and Subban quality in Stuart Percy. Good all around play very high IQ and very good offensive skills from Rielly. Very good two way game and hard slap shots from Stuart Percy.

We have our own studs but we have to be more accurate with our top and 2nd picks. You can't really complain that much, because you are getting our 2nd round picks once in a while. Also busts like Biggs. We need excellence in drafting not just good or decent. Leafs has the budget to afford that luxury on scouting. Organization has to utilize the capital effectively and not just in buying FAs or spending all money on players and management.

If I would be in a position if the guy is showing a lot of promising prospects from Europe, I would let him have the 2nd/3rd round picks for 1 draft so others can do a better job or we get to know the quality he chooses for our team.

 

[Delicious Dangles*]

Did you not get the whole purpose of the post? I was stating the fact that the leafs never got any blue chip caliber prospects (since Kabs) aside from their top 10 picks, which is pretty pathetic for a team that has so much resources. Just look at the Bruins drafts steal the last 10 years, they got 1st line caliber players such as Marchand, Lucic, Bergeron and Krejci all of which are drafted in the 2nd and 3rd rounds, now that's what I call excellent scouting. Now lets looks at the Habs (another team with excellent scouting) draft steals; Subban (2nd rounder), Streit (9th rounder), Gallagher (5th rounder), Patches (22nd overall) and some others I'm to lazy to list. Now do you see where I'm getting at? A lot of teams has managed to draft themselves at least 1 top quality skaters the last 10 years without needing a top 10 pick.

First off, with the possible exception of Krejci, none of the Boston players you named are 1st-line caliber players. Same goes for the Montreal players you named, except for Subban and Pacioretty. Not sure any you named were considered blue-chip prospects, aside from maybe Subban.

If you want to play this game, both Bozak and Gunarrsson were drafted/developed by us, and are playing top-line for our team. Our goalie Reimer is sporting a 0.942 save percentage, and has been spectacular since entering the league. He was a 4th round pick of ours. Kulemin has put up 30 goals on a top line, and is a defensive rock on our team. Tlusty has put up 23 goals in a 48 game season (39 goal pace) on a top line. Steen, the current leader in points and goals this season, as well as Rask, one of the best goalies in the league (and in the top-3 this season), were both our draft picks, and outside the top-10.

Players drafted in the last few years are still to young for us to really know what they will become in the NHL. Some of them are looking great, and putting up elite numbers in junior leagues. This is all with less than the average number of draft picks in the sample years and without the ones where most of these "steals" come from (or more than average in top-10 which you don't count. Kadri and Rielly both look like great picks, even considering where they were drafted).

When you are looking at 10 years of drafting across 30 teams, in 7 different rounds accounting for more than 2000 prospects, you are going to find a couple gems. These finds, are for the most part, based on luck. To a much lesser extent, based on which teams look for high risk, high reward prospects, which is not us (but doesn't mean we are bad at drafting, it's a different style). You're going to find some of them around the league at any given time, and it's pretty easy when you cherry pick teams that fit your agenda.

It's also a matter of opportunity for a lot of these occurrences, and we currently have an elite top-6 locked in. 3 were traded for, 1 was signed as a free agent, 1 "doesn't count" because he was top-10, and one went undrafted. We don't have self-drafted "steals" in our top-6, because for the most part, there is no room for any in our top-6.

 

[lebdafor norris]

First off, with the possible exception of Krejci, none of the Boston players you named are 1st-line caliber players. Same goes for the Montreal players you named, except for Subban and Pacioretty. Not sure any you named were considered blue-chip prospects, aside from maybe Subban.

If you want to play this game, both Bozak and Gunarrsson were drafted/developed by us, and are playing top-line for our team. Our goalie Reimer is sporting a 0.942 save percentage, and has been spectacular since entering the league. He was a 4th round pick of ours. Kulemin has put up 30 goals on a top line, and is a defensive rock on our team. Tlusty has put up 23 goals in a 48 game season (39 goal pace) on a top line. Steen, the current leader in points and goals this season, as well as Rask, one of the best goalies in the league (and in the top-3 this season), were both our draft picks, and outside the top-10.

Players drafted in the last few years are still to young for us to really know what they will become in the NHL. Some of them are looking great, and putting up elite numbers in junior leagues. This is all with less than the average number of draft picks in the sample years and without the ones where most of these "steals" come from (or more than average in top-10 which you don't count. Kadri and Rielly both look like great picks, even considering where they were drafted).

When you are looking at 10 years of drafting across 30 teams, in 7 different rounds accounting for more than 2000 prospects, you are going to find a couple gems. These finds, are for the most part, based on luck. To a much lesser extent, based on which teams look for high risk, high reward prospects, which is not us (but doesn't mean we are bad at drafting, it's a different style). You're going to find some of them around the league at any given time, and it's pretty easy when you cherry pick teams that fit your agenda.

It's also a matter of opportunity for a lot of these occurrences, and we currently have an elite top-6 locked in. 3 were traded for, 1 was signed as a free agent, 1 "doesn't count" because he was top-10, and one went undrafted. We don't have self-drafted "steals" in our top-6, because for the most part, there is no room for any in our top-6.

We don't have self drafted "steals" in our top 6 because we haven't drafted a PROVEN top 6 nhl player since Steen, our top 6 has been with many holes for years and yet, none of our drafted players ever became long term solutions for that.

Also, did you just compare Marchand, Lucic, Bergeron and Streit with Tlusty, Kulemin, Bozak and Gunnar? Streit back then was definitely a top pairing D and guys like Lucic, Bergeron and Marchand are at least, elite 2nd line players, while the leaf players listed above are 2nd/3rd line tweeners and a decent top 4 D. There's a reason I didn't include guys like Versteeg and Sobotka (for Boston) and Grabo and Kostitsyn (for montreal) on my example of draft "steals". No team hope for their blue chip prospect to turn out like this guys but I sure wouldn't mind if my top 10 pick ended becoming the next Bergeron, or the next Lucic, or the next Marchand, you get the point. Also, I am aware about the leaf's success of drafting goaltenders which is why my arguament is about them not being able to draft quality SKATERS.

Why can't I compare the Leaf's past drafting results with some of the most successful drafting teams in the NHL, don't the leafs have at least just as much as resources as they do? Don't we have one of the largest scouting team in the NHL? Anyway, If you think those 2 are the only team that got nice draft "steals" the last 10 years or so then you are wrong, let me list some more for you.
Phoenix: Yandle (4th round)
Dallas: Neal (2nd round), Benn (5th round)
Islanders: Hamonic (2nd round)
Sharks: Vlassic (2nd round)
Hawks: Hjalmarrson (4th) Saad (2nd round)
Preds: Josi (2nd)

I'm too lazy to list everything but you get the point, I would take any of this players over any SKATERS (outside the top 10) the leafs drafted from 2004 onwards.

 

[Delicious Dangles*]

We don't have self drafted "steals" in our top 6 because we haven't drafted a PROVEN top 6 nhl player since Steen, our top 6 has been with many holes for years and yet, none of our drafted players ever became long term solutions for that.

There is a reason these "steals" aren't taken high in the draft. They are not going to step into the fire right away in most circumstances, so it will take years to develop them from when they are drafted.

Which means that when we had open spots on our top lines to give kids opportunities, the only prospects that would be able to step in were ones from the JFJ/fletcher era, and we barely had any prospects from that era because JFJ traded away our picks.

Why does Bozak not count? He was still identified by our scouts, and was developed by our team. Just because he doesn't have a magic number from the almighty draft attached to his name?

Also, did you just compare Marchand, Lucic, Bergeron and Streit with Tlusty, Kulemin, Bozak and Gunnar? Streit back then was definitely a top pairing D and guys like Lucic, Bergeron and Marchand are at least, elite 2nd line players, while the leaf players listed above are 2nd/3rd line tweeners and a decent top 4 D. There's a reason I didn't include guys like Versteeg and Sobotka (for Boston) and Grabo and Kostitsyn (for montreal) on my example of draft "steals". No team hope for their blue chip prospect to turn out like this guys but I sure wouldn't mind if my top 10 pick ended becoming the next Bergeron, or the next Lucic, or the next Marchand, you get the point.

I'd be pretty disappointed if my top-10 pick turned into a Streit, Marchand, Lucic, or Gallagher. Streit didn't even become an NHLer until he was 28.

Also funny how you are allowed to count guys who have only been good for one season or a few seasons, yet the Leaf draftees putting up top numbers when they got their top line opportunities is dismissed.

You also seem to be glossing over Steen as if he doesn't count.

Also, I am aware about the leaf's success of drafting goaltenders which is why my arguament is about them not being able to draft quality SKATERS.

Ah. So we have two #1 goaltenders steals (including one of the best in the world), both putting up elite numbers in the NHL, but they "don't count" either.

Why can't I compare the Leaf's past drafting results with some of the most successful drafting teams in the NHL, don't the leafs have at least just as much as resources as they do? Don't we have one of the largest scouting team in the NHL? Anyway, If you think those 2 are the only team that got nice draft "steals" the last 10 years or so then you are wrong, let me list some more for you.

Because it's easy to make your argument look stronger when you can cherry-pick teams that fit your argument.

It doesn't matter how big your scouting team is or how much money you have. In this day and age, it's luck. Most of the time, it's not even something you can identify at the draft. It's all about how they develop after that, which is mostly on the individual, not the team.

Phoenix: Yandle (4th round)
Dallas: Neal (2nd round), Benn (5th round)
Islanders: Hamonic (2nd round)
Sharks: Vlassic (2nd round)
Hawks: Hjalmarrson (4th) Saad (2nd round)
Preds: Josi (2nd)

I'm too lazy to list everything but you get the point, I would take any of this players over any SKATERS (outside the top 10) the leafs drafted from 2004 onwards.

You're actually kind of proving my point. If all these teams, even ones bleeding money with minimal investment into scouting, have these kind of steals, then they are obviously random luck, and not affected by financial advantages.

But let me get this straight. You're naming one, maybe two, for these teams that you hand-picked. We have drafted at least 3 in the same time frame (Steen, Rask, Reimer) or equal/greater quality (Rask likely the best of ANY of the players you have named), as well as a bunch of "complimentary" players that have top-line seasons to their credit with top-line production, some playing key roles to this day, plus two excellent players drafted in the top-10...

Yet because of all this silly criteria you have made up (Can't be goalies, can't be top-10, has to be top-line for their entire career unless non-Leaf drafted, anybody named Steen is ignored, etc.), none of them count? And from this, you have come to the conclusion that we suck at drafting?

Yeah, I'm not seeing anything except a guy trying hard to push his agenda and failing. Also, hilarious that you included Saad.

 

[Cap'n Flavour]

I see a lot of mediocrity in our prospect pool. Rielly's the only top pick from the last few years I'm actually excited about. Ross, Biggs and Gauthier don't seem to be accomplishing much of anything. Percy and Finn may turn out decently, but it's not immediately obvious that they have the to be top 4 defensemen... maybe Finn does.

 

[crazyaces**]

We don't have self drafted "steals" ...

Also, I am aware about the leaf's success of drafting goaltenders which is why my arguament is about them not being able to draft quality SKATERS ...

Why can't I compare the Leaf's past drafting results with some of the most successful drafting teams in the NHL, don't the leafs have at least just as much as resources as they do? Don't we have one of the largest scouting team in the NHL?

You're trying to make a point, but to exclude the players the leafs have drafted according to your silly criteria, isn't fair. to say goalies don't count, you do realise the leafs have drafted 2 of the best goalies in the NHL from recent drafts 2005 and 2006. Montreal had to use their 5th overall pick to get a goalie like Price.

True, we havn't gotten lucky like some other teams in drafting high-end forwards or Dman, but eventually we will.

Players like Leivo, Finn, Andreas Johnson, Verhaeghe all have good upside and look promising

The leafs have also done really well in trades lately:

Phaneuf
Bernier
JVR
Lupul
Gardiner
Kessel (*)

make of it what you want.

 

[lebdafor norris]

There is a reason these "steals" aren't taken high in the draft. They are not going to step into the fire right away in most circumstances, so it will take years to develop them from when they are drafted.

Which means that when we had open spots on our top lines to give kids opportunities, the only prospects that would be able to step in were ones from the JFJ/fletcher era, and we barely had any prospects from that era because JFJ traded away our picks.

Why does Bozak not count? He was still identified by our scouts, and was developed by our team. Just because he doesn't have a magic number from the almighty draft attached to his name?


I'd be pretty disappointed if my top-10 pick turned into a Streit, Marchand, Lucic, or Gallagher. Streit didn't even become an NHLer until he was 28.

Also funny how you are allowed to count guys who have only been good for one season or a few seasons, yet the Leaf draftees putting up top numbers when they got their top line opportunities is dismissed.

You also seem to be glossing over Steen as if he doesn't count.


Ah. So we have two #1 goaltenders steals (including one of the best in the world), both putting up elite numbers in the NHL, but they "don't count" either.


Because it's easy to make your argument look stronger when you can cherry-pick teams that fit your argument.

It doesn't matter how big your scouting team is or how much money you have. In this day and age, it's luck. Most of the time, it's not even something you can identify at the draft. It's all about how they develop after that, which is mostly on the individual, not the team.


You're actually kind of proving my point. If all these teams, even ones bleeding money with minimal investment into scouting, have these kind of steals, then they are obviously random luck, and not affected by financial advantages.

But let me get this straight. You're naming one, maybe two, for these teams that you hand-picked. We have drafted at least 3 in the same time frame (Steen, Rask, Reimer) or equal/greater quality (Rask likely the best of ANY of the players you have named), as well as a bunch of "complimentary" players that have top-line seasons to their credit with top-line production, some playing key roles to this day, plus two excellent players drafted in the top-10...

Yet because of all this silly criteria you have made up (Can't be goalies, can't be top-10, has to be top-line for their entire career unless non-Leaf drafted, anybody named Steen is ignored, etc.), none of them count? And from this, you have come to the conclusion that we suck at drafting?

Yeah, I'm not seeing anything except a guy trying hard to push his agenda and failing. Also, hilarious that you included Saad.

Are you serious? Did you just skimmed thru my post and posted accordingly? I acknowledge that fact that the leafs had done a great job drafting goaltenders in my previous post have I not? My arguament is about them struggling to draft SKATERS (forwards and Dman) outside the top 10, I swear I even capitalize that part on my last post how could you have missed it. Also I already said a dozen times thru my last post and previous post that Steen is a really good player but the fact that he was the last legit 1/1b forward the leafs drafted outside the top 10 is not very good at all, ITS ALREADY BEEN MORE THAN 10 YEARS SINCE WE GOT HIM.

I understand not giving up a top 10 pick for Gallagher but to say Lucic and Marchand are not worth a top 10 pick is just asinine. Do you even have any idea how good of a player Lucic is? A skilled, physical top 6 player who can drop the gloves with the best of em and just be really intimidating on the ice is so rare in today's NHL that I cant think of any other players with this skillset but him. Also I'm pretty sure most GMs and fans for that matter, wouldn't mind trading a pick outside the top 7 for arguable a top 3 agitator in the league whose been putting up solid numbers ever since coming to the NHL. Streit you could say is debatable, but in my mind he was worth a top 10 pick when he was in his prime, not may D man can put up 4 straight years of 40+ point season which included an all star trip and a 62 point year. Also how am I being bias? Tell me which NHL SKATER the leafs drafted the past 10 years (excluding Rielly and Kadri of course) that is/was as good as this guys. If I was being biased I would have included guys like Grabovski, Emilin, Sobotka and Versteeg (for BOS and MONT) as well but do you really consider this guys "an awesome steal"? Do you consider guys like Kulemin, Bozak and other "leaf players who looked good at one point such as *cough* Stajan, awesome steals"? Heck I cant even think of a single forward the leafs drafted (besides Kadri) that is as good offensively as Grabo is since Steen, and he didn't even make my list.

Finally how the heck am I cherry picking? Did I not list you a bunch of other teams besides Bos and MON that has had awesome Success drafting SKATERS outside the 1st round? I dont know why you keep bringing up goaltenders as a reason when my whole arguament has always been about drafting top line forwards and paring D, maybe you should read people's post before making such uninformed comments. Finally this whole drafting in the late rounds is pure luck is so BS, its a scouts jobs to find those players who are possiblly late bloomers, they are paid to this, if its just pure luck then whats the point of scouting players outside the top 40 at all? Why not just use central scouting list and pick ini mini miny mo to select their players? Please if you you truly believe its all pure luck then your not giving scouts much credit at all and I'm pretty sure most of HF agrees with me with this one, make a poll for it on the main forum if your still not convince.