Proposal: Toronto - Colorado

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Notsince67

Papi and the Lamplighters
Apr 27, 2018
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A healthy Auston Matthews would certainly help that cause.

I'm curious about Nazem Kadri, with the two centers playing ahead of him now and Tavares presence on the power play makes me wonder what kind of numbers he might post.
I think his numbers will be strong. He has put up good numbers with lower quality team mates before. With the PP line that they are going with, PP time will rise. I also suspect fairly equal usage between line 1,2 & 3 for a while with the fourth being limited to 7 minutes at most. It is also possible that they go with an 11-7 lineup with only 3 centres, who will fill for the 4th line minutes.
 

Notsince67

Papi and the Lamplighters
Apr 27, 2018
15,854
11,052
The problem with statistics is they can be twisted in any manner, I did the same research and found multiple websites indicating Barrie is much better. So rather than going back and forth, I rather have another opinion from the NHL.com website and their ranking of DMen.

Barrie - 17th
Gardiner - 30th

Fantasy defenseman top 50 rankings for 2018-19

1. Erik Karlsson, D, SJS*
2. Brent Burns, D, SJS
3. Victor Hedman, D, TBL
4.
Dustin Byfuglien, D, WPG
5.
Drew Doughty, D, LAK
6.
P.K. Subban, D, NSH
7. John Klingberg, D, DAL
8.
Seth Jones, D, CBJ
9.
Roman Josi, D, NSH
10. John Carlson, D, WSH
11.
Kris Letang, D, PIT
12. Shayne Gostisbehere, D, PHI
13.
Dougie Hamilton, D, CAR
14.
Torey Krug, D, BOS (INJ.)
15. Rasmus Dahlin, D, BUF
16. Keith Yandle, D, FLA
17. Tyson Barrie, D, COL
18.
Ivan Provorov, D, PHI**
19.
Mark Giordano, D, CGY
20.
Charlie McAvoy, D, BOS**
21.
Alex Pietrangelo, D, STL
22.
Oliver Ekman-Larsson, D, ARI
23.
Morgan Rielly, D, TOR
24.
Zach Werenski, D, CBJ (INJ.)**
25.
Matt Dumba, D, MIN
26.
Rasmus Ristolainen, D, BUF
27.
Ryan Ellis, D, NSH
28.
Aaron Ekblad, D, FLA
29.
Mikhail Sergachev, D, TBL
30. Jake Gardiner, D, TOR*
31.
Ryan Suter, D, MIN (INJ.)
32. Shea Theodore, D, VGK (RFA)
33.
Jake Muzzin, D, LAK
34.
Brandon Montour, D, ANA
35. Ryan Pulock, D, NYI
36. Marc-Edouard Vlasic, D, SJS
37. Nick Leddy, D, NYI
38.
Colton Parayko, D, STL
39.
Will Butcher, D, NJD**
40.
Erik Johnson, D, COL
41.
Kevin Shattenkirk, D, NYR
42.
Josh Manson, D, ANA
43.
Justin Faulk, D, CAR
44. Miro Heiskanen, D, DAL
45.
Duncan Keith, D, CHI
46.
Mike Matheson, D, FLA
47.
Cam Fowler, D, ANA
48.
Tyler Myers, D, WPG*
49.
Mattias Ekholm, D, NSH
50.
Mike Green, D, DET - INJ.
So I don't much like these fantasy lists but as an aside, I would rather have Erik Johnson than Barrie on the Leafs
 
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Randy Randerson

Registered User
Jul 28, 2016
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You have no issue with the fact that your exemplary player is a -7 in less than 20 playoff games and has never won a playoff series?
plus minus should not be used to evaluate individual players, ever, period. It says a lot more about the player's scenario than it does about the player

Its a hypothetical that Gardnier m/Nylander would produce more give those circumstances. If they had done it and then got less mins, maybe you could use that an argument. But right now, you’re artificially giving hypothetical points to compare against players who have done it in real life.
I'm saying that Barrie put up a ton of points in a usage that was more favourable to do so than any other defenseman in the NHL. It's not a big leap to say that increasing any player's PP minutes would yield more points. It seems like you just want Barrie to be better rather than looking at them, and that's not my position here on Gardiner. I'm looking at what they do in the opportunity they're given and seeing similar levels of player, both excelling in 2nd pairing usage, one more on the offensive side and one more on the possession side

The problem with statistics is they can be twisted in any manner, I did the same research and found multiple websites indicating Barrie is much better. So rather than going back and forth, I rather have another opinion from the NHL.com website and their ranking of DMen.

Barrie - 17th
Gardiner - 30th

Fantasy defenseman top 50 rankings for 2018-19

1. Erik Karlsson, D, SJS*
2. Brent Burns, D, SJS
3. Victor Hedman, D, TBL
4.
Dustin Byfuglien, D, WPG
5.
Drew Doughty, D, LAK
6.
P.K. Subban, D, NSH
7. John Klingberg, D, DAL
8.
Seth Jones, D, CBJ
9.
Roman Josi, D, NSH
10. John Carlson, D, WSH
11.
Kris Letang, D, PIT
12. Shayne Gostisbehere, D, PHI
13.
Dougie Hamilton, D, CAR
14.
Torey Krug, D, BOS (INJ.)
15. Rasmus Dahlin, D, BUF
16. Keith Yandle, D, FLA
17. Tyson Barrie, D, COL
18.
Ivan Provorov, D, PHI**
19.
Mark Giordano, D, CGY
20.
Charlie McAvoy, D, BOS**
21.
Alex Pietrangelo, D, STL
22.
Oliver Ekman-Larsson, D, ARI
23.
Morgan Rielly, D, TOR
24.
Zach Werenski, D, CBJ (INJ.)**
25.
Matt Dumba, D, MIN
26.
Rasmus Ristolainen, D, BUF
27.
Ryan Ellis, D, NSH
28.
Aaron Ekblad, D, FLA
29.
Mikhail Sergachev, D, TBL
30. Jake Gardiner, D, TOR*
31.
Ryan Suter, D, MIN (INJ.)
32. Shea Theodore, D, VGK (RFA)
33.
Jake Muzzin, D, LAK
34.
Brandon Montour, D, ANA
35. Ryan Pulock, D, NYI
36. Marc-Edouard Vlasic, D, SJS
37. Nick Leddy, D, NYI
38.
Colton Parayko, D, STL
39.
Will Butcher, D, NJD**
40.
Erik Johnson, D, COL
41.
Kevin Shattenkirk, D, NYR
42.
Josh Manson, D, ANA
43.
Justin Faulk, D, CAR
44. Miro Heiskanen, D, DAL
45.
Duncan Keith, D, CHI
46.
Mike Matheson, D, FLA
47.
Cam Fowler, D, ANA
48.
Tyler Myers, D, WPG*
49.
Mattias Ekholm, D, NSH
50.
Mike Green, D, DET - INJ.
don't get me wrong, I agree that Barrie is a better offensive player than Gardiner. These fantasy rankings are based on point production, they don't factor in the defensive aspects (or at least beyond things like hits, they need widely kept stats to base points on for automated updating of yahoo/draftkings and other fantasy site leagues). Barrie isn't nearly the caliber of player of some of the guys below him on this list - Pietrangelo, Rielly, Suter are all top pairing players who handle the peak level of competition and do it well (neither Gardiner or Barrie is in that boat), Heiskanen hasn't played an NHL game and is on this list as a speculative draft position ranking for fantasy purposes, etc. So this shouldn't be treated as a ranking of how good NHL defenders are, it's based on expected point production alone

in terms of twisting of statistics, I've seen the raw data and it all seems pretty consistent, can you share where you've seen something to the contrary that's based on performance rather than fantasy value? I'm using Corsica and NHL.com mostly

I will also say that my whole point here is that Gardiner+ for Barrie isn't a ridiculous premise from a value point of view (neither guy fits the other team's needs currently), and in the context of 186+ NHL jobs (some teams dress a 7th dman), the #17 for the #30 with adds seems pretty reasonable
 
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GirardSpinorama

Registered User
Aug 20, 2004
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I'm saying that Barrie put up a ton of points in a usage that was more favourable to do so than any other defenseman in the NHL. It's not a big leap to say that increasing any player's PP minutes would yield more points. It seems like you just want Barrie to be better rather than looking at them, and that's not my position here on Gardiner. I'm looking at what they do in the opportunity they're given and seeing similar levels of player, both excelling in 2nd pairing usage, one more on the offensive side and one more on the possession side

It is a huge leap that more mins mean more production. Not every player can produce in the offensive zone. Take away Barrie’s point shot and replace it with Gardiner’s, we would have a far less effective pp. Its the fundamental flaw in your argument. This is the nhl, not the nba. You have a goalie to contend against, a million more variables that result in the goals or missed opportunities. Attributing or discounting real production based on a simple extrapolation of minutes is wrong. We have to use real numbers, not hypothetical ones.
 

Randy Randerson

Registered User
Jul 28, 2016
10,637
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Hamilton
It is a huge leap that more mins mean more production. Not every player can produce in the offensive zone. Take away Barrie’s point shot and replace it with Gardiner’s, we would have a far less effective pp. Its the fundamental flaw in your argument. This is the nhl, not the nba. You have a goalie to contend against, a million more variables that result in the goals or missed opportunities. Attributing or discounting real production based on a simple extrapolation of minutes is wrong. We have to use real numbers, not hypothetical ones.
Ok, so Tyson Barrie is a 70pt defenseman going forward then?

It's a much more reasonable assumption that a player will maintain production rates with additional time given the size of the samples we're dealing with here than their production will go to zero, neither will be exactly right but one will be close
 

Randy Randerson

Registered User
Jul 28, 2016
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Hamilton
If he plays as well as he did last year. Which is 20 points better than Gardnier, unless Gardiner improves.
Let's revisit this post in April and see what the difference looks like. You're also not accounting for the leafs having another pp qb that got 50 pts because the opportunity is spread around in Toronto, so it's not the gap you're portraying, it's just concentrated to Barrie where it's spread around in Toronto

It's also sorta funny that you project Barrie to 70pts but criticize me for projecting Gardiner to being more productive with more opportunity, that's hypocrisy
 
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GirardSpinorama

Registered User
Aug 20, 2004
21,046
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Let's revisit this post in April and see what the difference looks like. You're also not accounting for the leafs having another pp qb that got 50 pts because the opportunity is spread around in Toronto, so it's not the gap you're portraying, it's just concentrated to Barrie where it's spread around in Toronto

Yes, lets revisit in April.

Why should I account for it? Why should i give hypothetical points? Which NHL award/all NHL team selection is based on points normalized by pp minutes?

This isnt the NBA with an open basket. The NHL has goalies and many factors and everything has to go right to result in goals. You can’t linearly extrapolate anything with that much noise.

We can argue about player qualities like passing, shot, skating etc, it’s be subjective but at least it has merit.
 

connormcmuffin

Registered User
Feb 17, 2018
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No one is saying Gardiner is terrible though are they. It’s merely being pointed out that Barrie is better. No need to take it personally and get bent out of shape. Believe it or not there are good players on the other teams in the league as well as the Leafs.
I don't care if people trash Gardiner, most Leafs fans do too.

There are no good players on the Leafs, good players are only on small markets, like Philly, thanks for chiming in fren. I think Giroux is soooooo underrated.
 

Patagonia

Keep Whining
Jan 6, 2017
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plus minus should not be used to evaluate individual players, ever, period. It says a lot more about the player's scenario than it does about the player


I'm saying that Barrie put up a ton of points in a usage that was more favourable to do so than any other defenseman in the NHL. It's not a big leap to say that increasing any player's PP minutes would yield more points. It seems like you just want Barrie to be better rather than looking at them, and that's not my position here on Gardiner. I'm looking at what they do in the opportunity they're given and seeing similar levels of player, both excelling in 2nd pairing usage, one more on the offensive side and one more on the possession side


don't get me wrong, I agree that Barrie is a better offensive player than Gardiner. These fantasy rankings are based on point production, they don't factor in the defensive aspects (or at least beyond things like hits, they need widely kept stats to base points on for automated updating of yahoo/draftkings and other fantasy site leagues). Barrie isn't nearly the caliber of player of some of the guys below him on this list - Pietrangelo, Rielly, Suter are all top pairing players who handle the peak level of competition and do it well (neither Gardiner or Barrie is in that boat), Heiskanen hasn't played an NHL game and is on this list as a speculative draft position ranking for fantasy purposes, etc. So this shouldn't be treated as a ranking of how good NHL defenders are, it's based on expected point production alone

in terms of twisting of statistics, I've seen the raw data and it all seems pretty consistent, can you share where you've seen something to the contrary that's based on performance rather than fantasy value? I'm using Corsica and NHL.com mostly

I will also say that my whole point here is that Gardiner+ for Barrie isn't a ridiculous premise from a value point of view (neither guy fits the other team's needs currently), and in the context of 186+ NHL jobs (some teams dress a 7th dman), the #17 for the #30 with adds seems pretty reasonable

I don't want to get into this back and forth with statistics. Spent most of my years in university studying numbers, there is no point and we just waste our energies going back in forth. Using the NHL's own rating system is impartial and removes any personal opinions.

Barrie is the better player and we should just accept the findings.

Interestingly, I am willing to concede the same ratings from RW. Don't necessarily agree, but assumed Rants was much better than both Leaf players Marner/Nylander which does not seem to be the case here.

Fantasy right wing top 50 rankings for 2018-19

1. Nikita Kucherov, RW, TBL
2. Patrik Laine, RW, WPG**
3. David Pastrnak, RW, BOS
4. Blake Wheeler, C/RW, WPG
5. Patrick Kane, RW, CHI
6. Vladimir Tarasenko, RW, STL - INJ.
7. Mitchell Marner, RW, TOR**
8. Phil Kessel, RW, PIT
9. Joe Pavelski, C/RW, SJS*
10. Jakub Voracek, RW, PHI
11. Alexander Radulov, RW, DAL
12. Brock Boeser, RW, VAN - INJ.**
13. Patric Hornqvist, RW, PIT
14. Wayne Simmonds, RW, PHI - INJ.*
15. William Nylander, C/RW, TOR - RFA
16. Mikko Rantanen, RW, COL**
17. Mikael Granlund, C/RW, MIN
18. Viktor Arvidsson, RW, NSH
19. Teuvo Teravainen, LW/RW, CAR**
20. T.J. Oshie, RW, WSH
21. Cam Atkinson, RW, CBJ
22. Sam Reinhart, C/RW, BUF
23. J.T. Miller, C/RW, TBL
24. Andrei Svechnikov, RW, CAR
25. Dustin Brown, RW, LAK - INJ.
26. Tom Wilson, RW, WSH
27. Reilly Smith, LW/RW, VGK
28. Jordan Eberle, RW, NYI*
29. Mark Stone, RW, OTT*
30. Pavel Buchnevich, RW, NYR**
31. Travis Konecny, LW/RW, PHI**
32. Yanni Gourde, C/RW, TBL*
33. Anthony Mantha, LW/RW, DET
34. James Neal, RW, CGY
35. Tyler Toffoli, RW, LAK
36. Nick Bjugstad, C/RW, FLA
37. Jason Zucker, LW/RW, MIN
38. Corey Perry, RW, ANA
39. Kyle Palmieri, RW, NJD
40. Alex Tuch, RW, VGK**
41. Brendan Gallagher, RW, MTL
42. Elias Lindholm, C/RW, CGY
43. Daniel Sprong, RW, PIT
44. Ondrej Kase, RW, ANA
45. Tyler Johnson, C/RW, TBL
46. Valeri Nichushkin, RW, DAL
47. Mats Zuccarello, RW, NYR*
48. Eeli Tolvanen, RW, NSH
49. Craig Smith, RW, NSH
50. Kailer Yamamoto, RW, EDM
 

Randy Randerson

Registered User
Jul 28, 2016
10,637
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I don't want to get into this back and forth with statistics. Spent most of my years in university studying numbers, there is no point and we just waste our energies going back in forth. Using the NHL's own rating system is impartial and removes any personal opinions.

Barrie is the better player and we should just accept the findings.

Interestingly, I am willing to concede the same ratings from RW. Don't necessarily agree, but assumed Rants was much better than both Leaf players Marner/Nylander which does not seem to be the case here.

Fantasy right wing top 50 rankings for 2018-19

1. Nikita Kucherov, RW, TBL
2. Patrik Laine, RW, WPG**
3. David Pastrnak, RW, BOS
4. Blake Wheeler, C/RW, WPG
5. Patrick Kane, RW, CHI
6. Vladimir Tarasenko, RW, STL - INJ.
7. Mitchell Marner, RW, TOR**
8. Phil Kessel, RW, PIT
9. Joe Pavelski, C/RW, SJS*
10. Jakub Voracek, RW, PHI
11. Alexander Radulov, RW, DAL
12. Brock Boeser, RW, VAN - INJ.**
13. Patric Hornqvist, RW, PIT
14. Wayne Simmonds, RW, PHI - INJ.*
15. William Nylander, C/RW, TOR - RFA
16. Mikko Rantanen, RW, COL**
17. Mikael Granlund, C/RW, MIN
18. Viktor Arvidsson, RW, NSH
19. Teuvo Teravainen, LW/RW, CAR**
20. T.J. Oshie, RW, WSH
21. Cam Atkinson, RW, CBJ
22. Sam Reinhart, C/RW, BUF
23. J.T. Miller, C/RW, TBL
24. Andrei Svechnikov, RW, CAR
25. Dustin Brown, RW, LAK - INJ.
26. Tom Wilson, RW, WSH
27. Reilly Smith, LW/RW, VGK
28. Jordan Eberle, RW, NYI*
29. Mark Stone, RW, OTT*
30. Pavel Buchnevich, RW, NYR**
31. Travis Konecny, LW/RW, PHI**
32. Yanni Gourde, C/RW, TBL*
33. Anthony Mantha, LW/RW, DET
34. James Neal, RW, CGY
35. Tyler Toffoli, RW, LAK
36. Nick Bjugstad, C/RW, FLA
37. Jason Zucker, LW/RW, MIN
38. Corey Perry, RW, ANA
39. Kyle Palmieri, RW, NJD
40. Alex Tuch, RW, VGK**
41. Brendan Gallagher, RW, MTL
42. Elias Lindholm, C/RW, CGY
43. Daniel Sprong, RW, PIT
44. Ondrej Kase, RW, ANA
45. Tyler Johnson, C/RW, TBL
46. Valeri Nichushkin, RW, DAL
47. Mats Zuccarello, RW, NYR*
48. Eeli Tolvanen, RW, NSH
49. Craig Smith, RW, NSH
50. Kailer Yamamoto, RW, EDM
I have an honours finance degree too, the numbers that you've presented are purely based on fantasy league point production not quality of individual play, if that's what you're relying on you need to reconsider your sources. If you did that as a leaf fan, you would be heavily criticized for using this as a reference


Corsica and natural stat trick are good sites for data mining, hockey reference is good for full seasons at a glance

I'm still of the opinion that the gap between Barrie and Gardiner is small, Barrie is a better offensive player and Gardiner a better possession player. I'm open to changing my opinion if there's support

On the Rantanen front, I'm not sure why the rankings assume that Barrie will perform similarly to last year and Rantanen won't, they both got an absolutely ton of powerplay time so either they think that they are going to balance time between the two forward pp units or these aren't well thought out. Maybe they think that Toronto's offense is going to be unstoppable, Marner was point per game for like his last 60 games last year so I could see him being in the 80 range this year
 

Patagonia

Keep Whining
Jan 6, 2017
7,621
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I have an honours finance degree too, the numbers that you've presented are purely based on fantasy league point production not quality of individual play, if that's what you're relying on you need to reconsider your sources. If you did that as a leaf fan, you would be heavily criticized for using this as a reference


Corsica and natural stat trick are good sites for data mining, hockey reference is good for full seasons at a glance

I'm still of the opinion that the gap between Barrie and Gardiner is small, Barrie is a better offensive player and Gardiner a better possession player. I'm open to changing my opinion if there's support

On the Rantanen front, I'm not sure why the rankings assume that Barrie will perform similarly to last year and Rantanen won't, they both got an absolutely ton of powerplay time so either they think that they are going to balance time between the two forward pp units or these aren't well thought out. Maybe they think that Toronto's offense is going to be unstoppable, Marner was point per game for like his last 60 games last year so I could see him being in the 80 range this year

You're welcome to your opinion, but NHL Fantasy rates Barrie higher and Rants lower.

I'm personally mixed on the results, but you can examine as many statistical reports. The rankings were prepared by surveying multiple reports, fans, writers and coaches opinions to have a consensus. I wouldn't be surprised if the results are skewed due to the possible large contingent of Leaf fans.

Consider if points were used to measure Barrie being superior Gardiner, than explain Rants that far exceeded point totals of Marner/Nylander and ranked lower? There is no chance on the open market Rants will return less than the Leaf wingers. Centres Matthews is ranked 4th and Mackinnon 5th (MVP Finalist), even though he nearly tied McDavid with the highest PPG which makes even less sense?

As mentioned before, Leafs and AVs are not good trading partners. Matthews and Reilly which are untouchable are the only players the AVs might be of interest.
 

Randy Randerson

Registered User
Jul 28, 2016
10,637
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Hamilton
You're welcome to your opinion, but NHL Fantasy rates Barrie higher and Rants lower.

I'm personally mixed on the results, but you can examine as many statistical reports. The rankings were prepared by surveying multiple reports, fans, writers and coaches opinions to have a consensus. I wouldn't be surprised if the results are skewed due to the possible large contingent of Leaf fans.

Consider if points were used to measure Barrie being superior Gardiner, than explain Rants that far exceeded point totals of Marner/Nylander and ranked lower? There is no chance on the open market Rants will return less than the Leaf wingers. Centres Matthews is ranked 4th and Mackinnon 5th (MVP Finalist), even though he nearly tied McDavid with the highest PPG which makes even less sense?

As mentioned before, Leafs and AVs are not good trading partners. Matthews and Reilly which are untouchable are the only players the AVs might be of interest.
the data isn't affected by fandom my friend, that's why it's the source you should trust. The fantasy rankings are not a ranking of how good the players are, they're a ranking of how those players are expected to finish in fantasy points in yahoo leagues, that's their intended purpose, that's why they use the word "fantasy"

It looks like the Leafs are loading up a #1pp unit of Marner-Matthews-Tavares-Nylander-Rielly, so there's a possibility that they see the PP time share between Rantanen and Marner/Nylander evening out and the same between MacKinnon and Matthews, where they still see Barrie having a significant edge in PP time over Gardiner. That could easily explain the fantasy rankings, but make no mistake that they are rankings for fantasy league purposes and they are not hiding that.

I agree that the Leafs and Avs aren't good trade partners, but with the Avs scoring depth I believe there is about 5 more Leafs players that would be of obvious interest to the Avs, Gardiner is probably not one of those

Yes, lets revisit in April.

Why should I account for it? Why should i give hypothetical points? Which NHL award/all NHL team selection is based on points normalized by pp minutes?

This isnt the NBA with an open basket. The NHL has goalies and many factors and everything has to go right to result in goals. You can’t linearly extrapolate anything with that much noise.

We can argue about player qualities like passing, shot, skating etc, it’s be subjective but at least it has merit.
you realize that data extrapolation is just as effective in the NHL as it is in any sport right? Having a goalie might reduce the shooting percentage, but there will still be a mean percentage over a large enough data sample that will be regressed towards. If you don't know that, then I can see why you think the way you do, but that's just plainly not true. That's why there's a growing analytics industry across all of the major sports, they're figuring out how to use them and now there's an arms race to find the most effective ones

There's a reason that all of the best shooters in the NHL have a shooting percentage within less than 15 of 100 possible percentage points, and a reason that band narrows as the sample size increases in length of time - that's regression towards the mean
 
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pmwlker

Registered User
Apr 13, 2018
662
424
I don't care if people trash Gardiner, most Leafs fans do too.

There are no good players on the Leafs, good players are only on small markets, like Philly, thanks for chiming in fren. I think Giroux is soooooo underrated.

Ditch the persecution complex already. It’s been old for ages. No one said there are no good players on the Leafs did they? The discussion is Gardiner/Barrie and the difference in value/skill sets etc. Just because some feel Barrie is a better player doesn’t mean Gardiner isn’t a good player. He is obviously with the odd brain fart as per most NHL level defenders.

For the record

Great Leafs players: Matthews, Marner
Good Leafs players: Nylander, Gardiner, Rielly (He’s very good).

Need I go on.


Signed
Flyers fan
 
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connormcmuffin

Registered User
Feb 17, 2018
1,080
424
Ditch the persecution complex already. It’s been old for ages. No one said there are no good players on the Leafs did they? The discussion is Gardiner/Barrie and the difference in value/skill sets etc. Just because some feel Barrie is a better player doesn’t mean Gardiner isn’t a good player. He is obviously with the odd brain fart as per most NHL level defenders.

For the record

Great Leafs players: Matthews, Marner
Good Leafs players: Nylander, Gardiner, Rielly (He’s very good).

Need I go on.


Signed
Flyers fan

Oh so you can't be reasoned with cool.

I don't care about anti-Leafs bias, not my point. My point is I'm sick of pleb market teams over valuing their players that would be criticized in bigger markets.

Care to address to the point? I doubt you can.
 

Echo Roku

Registered User
Jan 14, 2018
2,425
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seems he missed this, he is responding to others but won't attempt to prove you wrong. Wonder why?
I imagine it has to do with outrageous claims requiring significant evidence, over just demanding people who question it to disprove it.
 

pmwlker

Registered User
Apr 13, 2018
662
424
Oh so you can't be reasoned with cool.

I don't care about anti-Leafs bias, not my point. My point is I'm sick of pleb market teams over valuing their players that would be criticized in bigger markets.

Care to address to the point? I doubt you can.


Maybe we are sick of the overrating of Leafs players and the constant shitting on of other teams players.


Care to address that point?

Oh and I’m more than open to reasonable discussion. Are you is the question. Doubtful
 
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Notsince67

Papi and the Lamplighters
Apr 27, 2018
15,854
11,052
Maybe we are sick of the overrating of Leafs players and the constant ****ting on of other teams players.


Care to address that point?

Oh and I’m more than open to reasonable discussion. Are you is the question. Doubtful
Fans will always over-rate their players. This is likely because those players seem to fit the situational assignments really well. I conversation can be had about elite players but they are always so much better than anyone that they become almost useless discussions.
With respect to the argument of Barrie an Gardiner, it might very well be that one is better than the other overall. The situational role given though may not be worth the premium one would pay. It would be a waste of money.
Barrie is great on the PP but the leafs have no need to pay for that. Their PP unit would be deadly without him (and Gadiner is not part of it) Leafs have a greater need for a RHD who has great controlled exit skills. In this regard, the argument of who is better is rendered moot because Barrie would be considered an overpay due to underutilizing the very skills that make him great
 

Paladin2799

Registered User
Jul 15, 2009
2,237
58
So I don't much like these fantasy lists but as an aside, I would rather have Erik Johnson than Barrie on the Leafs

Is Erik Johnson even an option? I actually agree tbh. we have plenty of puck moving, could use his size and leadership.

I posted elsewhere Gardiner+Nylander for Barrie+ but I'd certainly do Johnson+ as well.
 
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connormcmuffin

Registered User
Feb 17, 2018
1,080
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Maybe we are sick of the overrating of Leafs players and the constant ****ting on of other teams players.


Care to address that point?

Oh and I’m more than open to reasonable discussion. Are you is the question. Doubtful
Cool, you can't address my point, thought so.
 

klozge

Avs
Jul 19, 2009
5,869
2,809
Espelkamp, Germany
Is Erik Johnson even an option? I actually agree tbh. we have plenty of puck moving, could use his size and leadership.

I posted elsewhere Gardiner+Nylander for Barrie+ but I'd certainly do Johnson+ as well.
I don't think EJ's market value is as high as his value is to the Avs. Trading him would be a shock to the locker room, so I don't think the Avs would do this trade at this point.
 

Alan Wake

It's not a loop, it's a spiral.
Dec 14, 2017
4,148
3,973
These threads are great for filling your ignore list.

"I'd rather have Gardider than Barrie."

Jesus ****ing christ the dome is tight in there.
Well, Barrie can't play in his own zone either.

If Toronto needs D and not more offense, this trade is pretty dumb. Which means I'm all for it.
 
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