Proposal: Toronto- Carolina

[Chrispy]

He stated goalies that were better ( missed that part in my reply) than Andersen and would cost no assets.
Only two goalies in that category and one is most likely already signed with his team and the other is a 7 year 6 to 7 million a year contract. Not sure that qualifies as free.

As for the argument that Andersen hasn't won anything. Then go after Murray, Holtby or Crawford as that is your measure of a better goalie and see how far that gets you.

Or just stand pat for a year with similar performance. One year is all you get with Andersen before UFA anyway.

I'll take Crawford or Khudobin next season over Andersen. And next year is all you're guaranteed with Andersen.

 

[MinJaBen]

Or just stand pat for a year with similar performance. One year is all you get with Andersen before UFA anyway.

I'll take Crawford or Khudobin next season over Andersen. And next year is all you're guaranteed with Andersen.

A year that is not guaranteed to happen anyway. Yeah, I'd avoid paying anything but a throwin pick from the Canes for Andersen until after the draft and the UFA market is more firmed up.

 

[Pyrophorus]

Must not value Andersen if you're gonna spell his name wrong but asking for 13th overall for him seems way too high. Canes likely draft Askarov with the pick.

Who plays net for the Leafs after this deal?
Campbell gonna play 50~ games?

Yeah....things never change, and there isn't a crop of UFA goalies out there.

 

[BobClarkesfrontteeth]

Or just stand pat for a year with similar performance. One year is all you get with Andersen before UFA anyway.

I'll take Crawford or Khudobin next season over Andersen. And next year is all you're guaranteed with Andersen.

You taking either of these goalies over Andersen doesn't make them better. You as a fan are ok if the Canes don't upgrade in goal. I am fine with that. One less team for the Flyers to worry about.

 

[Chrispy]

You taking either of these goalies over Andersen doesn't make them better. You as a fan are ok if the Canes don't upgrade in goal. I am fine with that. One less team for the Flyers to worry about.

If Andersen would have you worrying I fear for you if Carolina actually upgrades at goalie (markstrom or keumper)

 

[BobClarkesfrontteeth]

If Andersen would have you worrying I fear for you if Carolina actually upgrades at goalie (markstrom or keumper)

Andersen doesn't have me worried. You were the one stating that you would rather they stand pat. My comment was on them standing pat. IF they do not move from their Duo then they are just cannon fodder for some team on its way to the finals.

Keumper will cost you your first in this draft. Apparently a team already has a 1st plus in this years draft on the table.

As for Markstrom I hope they do sign him. Same age as Andersen. Less of a track record and a 7 for 7 would be perfect. Would love to see that boat anchor sink the good ship Carolina.

Again the Value of Andersen is a late 1st to mid 2nd and a 3rd round pick. IF the Leafs are trading him that is the value he carries.

 

[Big Muddy]

How about the fact that Nylander has a remaining 4 years left on his contract which he's only owed 6 mil in cash. Anderson is only owed 1 million in cash this year and then a ufa, Hamilton is owed 6 million in cash this year and then Ufa. So for an additional million in cash, Carolina receives a top line winger and a starting goalie while giving up their second pairing rhd and the 13th overall pick.

It was a question, so hopefully you didn't feel the need to be defensive. And, I was going to edit my post to include contract duration info as well, but got sidetracked to other more important issues.

Back to the topic, I think its worth considering alternative methods to obtaining a goalie other than via a trade. Canes could get one of the many free agent goalies available. That does not require the Canes (in this case) to lose other assets. It seems like a GM would consider things like that.

 

[GoldiFox]

Andersen doesn't have me worried. You were the one stating that you would rather they stand pat. My comment was on them standing pat. IF they do not move from their Duo then they are just cannon fodder for some team on its way to the finals.

Keumper will cost you your first in this draft. Apparently a team already has a 1st plus in this years draft on the table.

As for Markstrom I hope they do sign him. Same age as Andersen. Less of a track record and a 7 for 7 would be perfect. Would love to see that boat anchor sink the good ship Carolina.

Again the Value of Andersen is a late 1st to mid 2nd and a 3rd round pick. IF the Leafs are trading him that is the value he carries.

Not all 1sts are created equal. SJ is reportedly heavy on Kuemper so that "1st plus" could be #31 plus. At that point the Canes offering Reimer (whom LeBrun just stated Arizona would be keen on) + #43 + a B/C prospect could be more enticing. Kuemper is the better goalie signed for longer. Ride him for 2 years then pass the torch to Askarov.

 

[Pyrophorus]

I'm not sure that was a Leafs fan. He's a desired asset by other teams. It's not surprising to see him in proposals. Especially from fans of other teams.

Weird, how when we offer up talent, its "What's wrong with this guy?"

I understand, some people are burned with Bracco (we were as well), but Timmy is legit.

 

[Chayos]

They're not moving Nylander for a soon to be Ufa as the main piece.

Every player is going to be a UFA soon if you look at it. Is there any concern that Tor has problems signing players that they want to keep? Of course not, so this argument is stupid in their case. Hamilton for Nylander is fair. The Anderson for the first is not fair imo. Everybody is asking for first for their goalies, but no one is biting. See Pitts with murray, And Arizona with Kuemper. I am not sure that this deal meets Carolina's need though but as usual the other teams needs are no the important part on HF.

 

[Big Muddy]

He stated goalies that were better ( missed that part in my reply) than Andersen and would cost no assets.
Only two goalies in that category and one is most likely already signed with his team and the other is a 7 year 6 to 7 million a year contract. Not sure that qualifies as free.

As for the argument that Andersen hasn't won anything. Then go after Murray, Holtby or Crawford as that is your measure of a better goalie and see how far that gets you.

Cap space is an asset, so I've never really understood the idea that a free agent cost nothing. But, that is a side issue and a distraction relative to this subject.

TBH, I'm not sure what point you are making, and perhaps its because I missed something (mea culpa if that's the case). To keep things simple, there are a number of goalies available in free agency this year, and hence, I posted a link to CapFriendly sorted on free agent goalies. The list of available goalies is a lot longer than Murray, Holtby & Crawford.

So, I suspect all GMs will know this and see this an alternative. And of course, in addition to the free agents, there are other avenues/alternatives such as Andersen, etc. that will be weighed & considered by GMs as well.

 

[BobClarkesfrontteeth]

Not all 1sts are created equal. SJ is reportedly heavy on Kuemper so that "1st plus" could be #31 plus. At that point the Canes offering Reimer (whom LeBrun just stated Arizona would be keen on) + #43 + a B/C prospect could be more enticing. Kuemper is the better goalie signed for longer. Ride him for 2 years then pass the torch to Askarov.

Oh I agree Kuemper is the better goalie and all 1sts are not created equal. But the difference between 31 and 43 is a 3rd round pick or a B/C prospect. Reimer in a vacuum is worth a 3rd so he is the value difference.
Not sure 43, Geekie or equivalent and a 3rd/Riemer gets it done. Kuemper is worth a 1st and 3rd possibly a little more. Are you ready for that prospect to be Suzuki or Bokk to get it done?

I think teams like Chicago and the Avs would offer their firsts and a B/C prospect + to get Kuemper. I think there will be a bidding war for him as Arizona will just want the best futures possible.

 

[Avilaj07]

It was a question, so hopefully you didn't feel the need to be defensive. And, I was going to edit my post to include contract duration info as well, but got sidetracked to other more important issues.

Back to the topic, I think its worth considering alternative methods to obtaining a goalie other than via a trade. Canes could get one of the many free agent goalies available. That does not require the Canes (in this case) to lose other assets. It seems like a GM would consider things like that.

Definitely didn't take offense and I apologize if I came off as rude.

While I understand your thinking, Anderson is an upgrade on both of the current hurricane goalies and like I've stated previously, he's only owed 1 million in real cash. GM'S are looking at cutting cost and this move allows Carolina to get a first line winger who's locked in for 4 more yrs and 6 million dollar cash and also an upgrade in net for only 1 million in cash.

 

[BobClarkesfrontteeth]

Cap space is an asset, so I've never really understood the idea that a free agent cost nothing. But, that is a side issue and a distraction relative to this subject.

TBH, I'm not sure what point you are making, and perhaps its because I missed something (mea culpa if that's the case). To keep things simple, there are a number of goalies available in free agency this year, and hence, I posted a link to CapFriendly sorted on free agent goalies. The list of available goalies is a lot longer than Murray, Holtby & Crawford.

So, I suspect all GMs will know this and see this an alternative. And of course, in addition to the free agents, there are other avenues/alternatives such as Andersen, etc. that will be weighed & considered by GMs as well.

Yes you did miss something and that all good. His point was there were better goalies than Andersen available on 1 or two year deals that would not cost assets meaning UFA's. Which there is not. That is why I asked him to list them. Unless he has some inside information from Lehrner's or Markstrom's agents stating they are going to sign one year deals for a couple of million so they can sign a multi year deal after expansion.
Any goalie the same or better than Andersen is going to cost my a lot more in free agency or more in terms of assets in a trade.

 

[Big Muddy]

Definitely didn't take offense and I apologize if I came off as rude.

While I understand your thinking, Anderson is an upgrade on both of the current hurricane goalies and like I've stated previously, he's only owed 1 million in real cash. GM'S are looking at cutting cost and this move allows Carolina to get a first line winger who's locked in for 4 more yrs and 6 million dollar cash and also an upgrade in net for only 1 million in cash.

I get the points you are making, but my guess is that Carolina might be more tempted to look at other paths along the lines of what I've already posted. Having said that, I don't have any special insight into what the Hurricanes management is thinking or planning. I'm probably just repeating myself now ..... LOL.

 

[Big Muddy]

Yes you did miss something and that all good. His point was there were better goalies than Andersen available on 1 or two year deals that would not cost assets meaning UFA's. Which there is not.

Well, this is where we disagree. I think there's some decent goalies in that list of available free agents, although contract terms would be a different matter and hard to pinpoint given this market. Your list seems to be quite short and arbitrary imho.

And, as an independent & supplemental point, IMHO, you have a goalie who's rated as an 8 (on a 10 point scale), and another that's rated as a 6 or 7. If you have a strong defensive team, then the 6/7 guy could be a good choice if contract terms ($s and duration) were enough of a difference to be considered.

 

[Menzinger]

Every player is going to be a UFA soon if you look at it. Is there any concern that Tor has problems signing players that they want to keep? Of course not, so this argument is stupid in their case. Hamilton for Nylander is fair. The Anderson for the first is not fair imo. Everybody is asking for first for their goalies, but no one is biting. See Pitts with murray, And Arizona with Kuemper. I am not sure that this deal meets Carolina's need though but as usual the other teams needs are no the important part on HF.

Except this is a nonsense way of framing it. Nylander is under contract 4x longer than Hamilton is.....

There's zero guarantee Hamilton would resign, he may want to test the free agency waters.

Hamilton under a longer contract for Nylander is fair value. But without that extension jn place the deal wouldn't work for the Leafs

 

[Chrispy]

Yes you did miss something and that all good. His point was there were better goalies than Andersen available on 1 or two year deals that would not cost assets meaning UFA's. Which there is not. That is why I asked him to list them. Unless he has some inside information from Lehrner's or Markstrom's agents stating they are going to sign one year deals for a couple of million so they can sign a multi year deal after expansion.
Any goalie the same or better than Andersen is going to cost my a lot more in free agency or more in terms of assets in a trade.

Actually, if you read my post I said:
"Again, if there's a need for a short-term upgrade there are similar or better ones available that will not cost assets in trade."

You specified better, which Crawford and Khudobin objectively have been this year.

For similar, Mrazek and Reimer have been equivalent over the past season or 2 seasons for Mrazek and cost nothing.

Right at the beginning your assumption that Andersen is a clear improvement is fundamentally flawed.

 

[BobClarkesfrontteeth]

Well, this is where we disagree. I think there's some decent goalies in that list of available free agents, although contract terms would be different matter and hard to pinpoint given this market. Your list seems to be quite short and arbitrary imho.

And, as an independent & supplemental point, IMHO, you have a goalie who's rated as an 8 (on a 10 point scale), and another that's rated as a 6 or 7. If you have a strong defensive team, then the 6/7 guy could be a good choice if contract terms ($s and duration) were enough of a difference to be considered.

There are some decent goalies on the list. but by your own second statement they are not of the same caliber as Andersen. The orginal statement was there are goalies the same or better than Andersen that are available for no assets and on short deals. (1 to 2 years)

The only 2 goalies on the UFA list that would rate the same or higher than him are Markstrom or Lehrner. They are not signing for 1 or 2 years.

So I am still waiting for someone to list me just one goalie who's cost is asset free, the same level or better than Andersen and on a 1 to 2 year deal. I have a feeling I will be waiting a very long time.

 

[Chrispy]

Cap space is an asset, so I've never really understood the idea that a free agent cost nothing. But, that is a side issue and a distraction relative to this subject.

Sure, but if cap space is an asset Andersen is a $5M cap hit next year.

Carolina's entire tandem is $6.525M in cap space next year.

So that's an area where a veteran short-term goalie could be less expensive than Andersen.

 

[Chrispy]

So I am still waiting for someone to list me just one goalie who's cost is asset free, the same level or better than Andersen and on a 1 to 2 year deal. I have a feeling I will be waiting a very long time.

	18-19 GAA	18-19 SV%	19-20 GAA	19-20 SV%
Andersen	2.77	.917	2.85	.909
Mrazek	2.39	.914	2.65	.905
Reimer (CAR)			2.66	.914

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[BobClarkesfrontteeth]

Actually, if you read my post I said:
"Again, if there's a need for a short-term upgrade there are similar or better ones available that will not cost assets in trade."

You specified better, which Crawford and Khudobin objectively have been this year.

For similar, Mrazek and Reimer have been equivalent over the past season or 2 seasons for Mrazek and cost nothing.

Right at the beginning your assumption that Andersen is a clear improvement is fundamentally flawed.

Interesting that you say that I am assuming that Andersen is better is fundamentally flawed when you are taking single season samples as your basis. Add in Khudobin is in a back up role. Then that's not flawed at all. ‍

As for Mrazek and Reimer being the same as Andersen if you believe that because you cherry pick some stats for a year or two well we can pretty much stop discussing the topic and you can go back to your cats doing things meme's

 

[Big Muddy]

There are some decent goalies on the list. but by your own second statement they are not of the same caliber as Andersen. The orginal statement was there are goalies the same or better than Andersen that are available for no assets and on short deals. (1 to 2 years)

The only 2 goalies on the UFA list that would rate the same or higher than him are Markstrom or Lehrner. They are not signing for 1 or 2 years.

So I am still waiting for someone to list me just one goalie who's cost is asset free, the same level or better than Andersen and on a 1 to 2 year deal. I have a feeling I will be waiting a very long time.

I think you are making a big (or bigger) issue over a really small difference versus trying to see the alternative points being made. You seem to have glossed over the "independent and supplemental" part (in #141) as well as if those words were meaningless. That sentence was supplemental and not the main point which should have been pretty clear given the specificity of the wording.

If you look at the goalies still in the playoffs, none other than Vasilevskiy is (or was) a "big name" goalie, and yet they have done a great job and have been instrumental in their team reaching Conference/Cup finals. Ironically, some of those same goalies are on the free agent list that was provided.

And, don't think any waiting is necessary given that you've already been provided with a list. I think we will just go in circles at this point though.

 

[Chrispy]

Interesting that you say that I am assuming that Andersen is better is fundamentally flawed when you are taking single season samples as your basis. Add in Khudobin is in a back up role. Then that's not flawed at all. ‍

As for Mrazek and Reimer being the same as Andersen if you believe that because you cherry pick some stats for a year or two well we can pretty much stop discussing the topic and you can go back to your cats doing things meme's

The past 2 seasons is cherry-picking stats when trying to figure out who will play well in 2020-21? Seems like the most relevant information available given these seasons involve the system any Carolina goalie will be playing in.

And those years aren't outliers for Andersen, that's his Toronto regular season statistics:

Year	GAA	SV%
19-20	2.85	.909
18-19	2.77	.917
17-18	2.81	.918
16-17	2.67	.918

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

As for Khudobin: he played 41 games last year and 30 games this year. That's equivalent to the platoon Carolina has run the past 2 years and would work well with one of Mrazek or Reimer. The workload fits with how Brind'Amour manages goalie workload and will probably have to manage goalie workload this coming season.

 

[Chayos]

Except this is a nonsense way of framing it. Nylander is under contract 4x longer than Hamilton is.....

There's zero guarantee Hamilton would resign, he may want to test the free agency waters.

Hamilton under a longer contract for Nylander is fair value. But without that extension jn place the deal wouldn't work for the Leafs

Actually if they had the same term Nylander would not get you Hamilton