Proposal: Toronto- Carolina

[Fatass]

Assuming Hamilton isn't interested in re-signing with Carolina...

#15, Liljegren, Anderson for Hamilton & Reimer

What’s wrong with this Lilgegren guy? He’s included in almost every Leaf’s proposal.

 

[Merrrlin]

What’s wrong with this Lilgegren guy? He’s included in almost every Leaf’s proposal.

Most Leaf fans are tired of him, because we all know 21 year old defencemen have peaked.

In reality, I think he's just the most valuable piece most people are willing to trade out of the "little 3" of Robertson, Sandin and Liljegren.

In my opinion, he's not really a B level prospect anymore on a tier with those other 2, so I think his value is quite a bit lower.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

I didn't say you called us dumb.

If you are going to call out and mock a fanbase, don';t get so defensive when they come back and ask why. I get that those comments are great for farming "likes", but they are pretty damn annoying and almost always derail threads.

Threads like this are why the fanbase is constantly mocked, I am not the only one on here who did it. Sorry if I hurt your feelings.

Also just looked through the Leafs forum When OP posted this trade there it got 2 replies and 2 likes. 1 of the replies was from himself and the other was telling him he spelled Andersen wrong.

 

[7even]

Chicago is not a worse place for our affiliate.

We did it because:
A. Chicago has deeper pockets to support paying for AHL veterans that only have a small chance of being called up. That was going to be a large expense for us as we will have 6 prospects in the AHL until the European and Junior Leagues are done.
B. Most importantly, Chicago has better facilities for their players which is better for developing prospects.
C. A nice bonus, they wont require help from Dundon if the AHL goes without fans.

the location of Chicago versus Charlotte isn’t a big deal if we decide to carry extra players. If we tried to carry only 20 players then the idea of a flight to Raleigh versus a 3 hour drive is more expensive. If we have extra players, we wouldn’t need to call up players to be insurance for a day to day injury.

To say this deal makes sense because the Canes save real dollars in the trade is ludicrous. Dundon is making hard business decisions to save money everywhere but on the ice. He isn’t going to sell off two of his top assets to save 4 million dollars. That would contradict every other move he has made.

I'm not a proponent of the original deal, I think it's bloated. My post was the observation that Andersen is attractive to the Hurricanes for exactly the reasons you're outlining -- he's better than Reimer and at the same price point, a way to improve the team without spending any more money.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

I'm not a proponent of the original deal, I think it's bloated. My post was the observation that Andersen is attractive to the Hurricanes for exactly the reasons you're outlining -- he's better than Reimer and at the same price point, a way to improve the team without spending any more money.

we assume he is better than Reimer due to Andersen's past performances. Andersen is a risk to give up anything of note for. GMs are seeing that teams arent giving up a bunch for goalies. JR wants people to bite on a first for Murray. Everyone else isnt biting on that.

 

[Merrrlin]

Threads like this are why the fanbase is constantly mocked, I am not the only one on here who did it. Sorry if I hurt your feelings.

Also just looked through the Leafs forum When OP posted this trade there it got 2 replies and 2 likes. 1 of the replies was from himself and the other was telling him he spelled Andersen wrong.

You didn't hurt my feelings, but I am not surprised you went to that response once confronted. You say dumb stuff in the real world, you should expect to have people question it. Resorting to "sorry I hurt your feelings" is childish.

Anyways, moving on.

I just can't imagine Carolina actually trading Pesce unless that golden opportunity comes up.

Carolina fans, what are you "pie in the sky" wishlist players you want to add in the next few years? Doesn't have to be names, even something like "goalscoring winger" works.

 

[stewpac]

That's a lot for Toronto to give up, I'd be more interested in giving less and not getting a first rounder. Focus is on a RHD, not getting another first. Plus I really don't think Dubas wants to trade Freddy, I know there's lots of chatter but I can't see it happening.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

You didn't hurt my feelings, but I am not surprised you went to that response once confronted. You say dumb stuff in the real world, you should expect to have people question it. Resorting to "sorry I hurt your feelings" is childish.

Anyways, moving on.

I just can't imagine Carolina actually trading Pesce unless that golden opportunity comes up.

Carolina fans, what are you "pie in the sky" wishlist players you want to add in the next few years? Doesn't have to be names, even something like "goalscoring winger" works.

Wishlist: top 6 winger that provides consistent threat next to Tro and Necas. A goalie that will stabilize the goal tending situation. Doesnt need to be a top 10 goalie. Top half of the league will be sufficient. The defense will be on of the tops in the league for another 3-5 years.

Outside of that, we are good. We have plenty of young depth that will supplement our top 6.

 

[Merrrlin]

Wishlist: top 6 winger that provides consistent threat next to Tro and Necas. A goalie that will stabilize the goal tending situation. Doesnt need to be a top 10 goalie. Top half of the league will be sufficient. The defense will be on of the tops in the league for another 3-5 years.

Outside of that, we are good. We have plenty of young depth that will supplement our top 6.

I am going to avoid bringing up Nylander and Andersen, but they seem to fit that wishlist pretty well.

Outside of those two, could Hall be a possible UFA target? Goalie should be a bit easier with the hot market this offseason, although I am guessing Mrazek or Reimer would need to be going the other way to make it work.

Signing Hall would complicate bringing back Douggie.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

That's a lot for Toronto to give up, I'd be more interested in giving less and not getting a first rounder. Focus is on a RHD, not getting another first. Plus I really don't think Dubas wants to trade Freddy, I know there's lots of chatter but I can't see it happening.

You think Toronto is paying too much here? You must be trolling

 

[Leaf Fans]

What’s wrong with this Lilgegren guy? He’s included in almost every Leaf’s proposal.

Nothing is wrong with him.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

I am going to avoid bringing up Nylander and Andersen, but they seem to fit that wishlist pretty well.

Outside of those two, could Hall be a possible UFA target? Goalie should be a bit easier with the hot market this offseason, although I am guessing Mrazek or Reimer would need to be going the other way to make it work.

Signing Hall would complicate bringing back Douggie.

I would guess they are probably looking for cheaper options than Nylander. A 2nd line guy like Killorn or something Not a top end talent but a sturdy, trustworthy body. I think that was the hope with Nino and Dzingel. Tatar could make a lot of sense too. As for Goalie my guess is a 1A for Mrazek, maybe Greiss or Khudobin are good targets if they move out Reimer. Mind you I am not a Canes fan so I can't speak for them

 

[Magic Man]

What’s wrong with this Lilgegren guy? He’s included in almost every Leaf’s proposal.

I'm not sure that was a Leafs fan. He's a desired asset by other teams. It's not surprising to see him in proposals. Especially from fans of other teams.

 

[seanlinden]

we assume he is better than Reimer due to Andersen's past performances. Andersen is a risk to give up anything of note for. GMs are seeing that teams arent giving up a bunch for goalies. JR wants people to bite on a first for Murray. Everyone else isnt biting on that.

There is a massive difference between what you can have confidence in getting with Andersen and Murray. Andersen is one of (maybe THE) hardest working goalie in the NHL over the last 4 seasons. He has delivered remarkably consistent numbers over that period. Numbers that are comparable to Carey Price.

Matt Murray has the resume of 2 cups, but has been remarkably inconsistent over the last 4 years and seemingly lost the #1 job. He's likely looking for a big time contract commensurate with the multi-cup resume, but you could be getting a guy that is no better than Mrazek or Reimer, who's contract will likely be quite bloated in that case.

 

[Magic Man]

You think Toronto is paying too much here? You must be trolling

Nylander has proven to be a 60-70+ point forward locked in under 7M per for 4 years. He is 3 years younger than Hamilton. Hamilton is a UFA after this season. He is the most valuable asset in the deal. You could make an argument that Hamilton is better than either Nylander or Andersen today, though you could make a counter argument for each. But, Nylander carries the most value in the deal and Freddie Andersen should not be cheap to acquire given his money owed and career to date.

13th Overall for Freddie Andersen straight and cut out the major additions.

 

[Merrrlin]

Nylander has proven to be a 60-70+ point forward locked in under 7M per for 4 years. He is 3 years younger than Hamilton. Hamilton is a UFA after this season. He is the most valuable asset in the deal. You could make an argument that Hamilton is better than either Nylander or Andersen today, though you could make a counter argument for each. But, Nylander carries the most value in the deal and Freddy Andersen should not be cheap to acquire given his money owed and career to date.

13th Overall for Freddie Andersen straight and cut out the major additions.

Hamilton is better than Nylander but control matters, so I agree.

13th for Freddy is way too much though, in my mind. I don't think Freddy gets more than a 2nd+C tier prospect. Again - control matters.

In Murray's case, control might actually be a negative...

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

There is a massive difference between what you can have confidence in getting with Andersen and Murray. Andersen is one of (maybe THE) hardest working goalie in the NHL over the last 4 seasons. He has delivered remarkably consistent numbers over that period. Numbers that are comparable to Carey Price.

Matt Murray has the resume of 2 cups, but has been remarkably inconsistent over the last 4 years and seemingly lost the #1 job. He's likely looking for a big time contract commensurate with the multi-cup resume, but you could be getting a guy that is no better than Mrazek or Reimer, who's contract will likely be quite bloated in that case.

Was this a blip year for Andersen or is he starting his 30s slide?

you were good on the argument until you threw in Carey Price.

Price 26-30: .927, .933, .934, .923, .900
Andersen 26-30: .919, .918, .918. 917, .909

 

[Chrispy]

Nylander has proven to be a 60-70+ point forward locked in under 7M per for 4 years. He is 3 years younger than Hamilton. Hamilton is a UFA after this season. He is the most valuable asset in the deal. You could make an argument that Hamilton is better than either Nylander or Andersen today, though you could make a counter argument for each. But, Nylander carries the most value in the deal and Freddy Andersen should not be cheap to acquire given his money owed and career to date.

13th Overall for Freddie Andersen straight and cut out the major additions.

No way Carolina should pay #13 for a rental goalie who might be a slight improvement over what Carolina has when you look at the underlying numbers. If that's what Toronto wants, there's plenty of other goalies to look at for trade or as UFA signings.

 

[Magic Man]

No way Carolina should pay #13 for a rental goalie who might be a slight improvement over what Carolina has when you look at the underlying numbers. If that's what Toronto wants, there's plenty of other goalies to look at for trade or as UFA signings.

The only available goalies I'd rather go into next season with are Lehner and Markstrom. I think Lehner is better and Markstrom is on par, but could be signed for less. There are other good options, but for a contending team it would be nice to improve the position. A few options like Crawford, Murray and Kuemper provide that potential. But, each come with their own warts and costs.

The point is he is probably the most attractive option or a top-3 option at his position who is available in the next little while. While, making 1M on a 5M cap hit in the middle of a pandemic where teams are trying to spend less. On paper you would think he should contain a fairly high cost to acquire.

 

[BrainyBomber]

To be fair, I never called them dumb. I just said to not change, I love refreshing this and CapFriendly and getting a good chuckle from the Leafs trade proposals. Even if most fans aren't brain-dead there is enough to make posts like this a common occurrence that it's amusing.

It only occurs so much because there are way more Leafs fans than any other team.

For example Nate Silver has estimated that there are 28 times more Leafs fans than Canes fans: Why Can’t Canada Win The Stanley Cup?

 

[Chrispy]

The only available goalies I'd rather go into next season with are Lehner and Markstrom. I think Lehner is better and Markstrom is on par, but could be signed for less. There are other good options, but for a contending team it would be nice to improve the position. A few options like Crawford, Murray and Kuemper provide that potential. But, each come with their own warts and costs.

The point is he is probably the most attractive option, or a top-3 option at his position who is available in the next little while. While, making 1M on a 5M cap hit in the middle of a pandemic where teams are trying to spend less. On paper you would think he should contain a fairly high cost to acquire.

And that cost for 1 year is why it's a bad idea. You can get 2 years for Keumper, who has been consistently better. You can sign Crawford for free, who has been better when healthy in front of a much worse team than Carolina. Lehner and Markstrom are clear upgrades as you point out, and would be signed through Carolina's short-term window. If Arizona will trade Raanta for less, I'd prefer Raanta to Andersen. If Rask became available, I'd go for Rask over Andersen. If Khudobin hits the market, I'd put him above Andersen for the short-term.

Plus, any UFA or lesser trade would allow Carolina to pick in the first round where they could also solve this problem long-term with Askarov. Nothing about giving up Carolina's 1st for Andersen makes sense.

Finally, as I've said already: Andersen isn't a clear-cut improvement on what Carolina has based on the last 2 years.

	18-19 GAA	18-19 SV%	19-20 GAA	19-20 SV%
Andersen	2.77	.917	2.85	.909
Mrazek	2.39	.914	2.65	.905
Reimer (CAR)			2.66	.914

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

And keep in mind Carolina gave up the same number of HD chances as Toronto last season and the HDGA and HDSV% for both teams was similar last year. So the argument that Andersen would look better behind Carolina's defense also doesn't make sense when you look at the numbers.

Would I take a chance on Andersen as a cheap rental? Sure. For a 1st round pick? Absolutely not.

 

[GoldiFox]

The only available goalies I'd rather go into next season with are Lehner and Markstrom. I think Lehner is better and Markstrom is on par, but could be signed for less. There are other good options, but for a contending team it would be nice to improve the position. A few options like Crawford, Murray and Kuemper provide that potential. But, each come with their own warts and costs.

The point is he is probably the most attractive option, or a top-3 option at his position who is available in the next little while. While, making 1M on a 5M cap hit in the middle of a pandemic where teams are trying to spend less. On paper you would think he should contain a fairly high cost to acquire.

A rental Andersen is worth a mid-2nd round pick. Nobody is giving up a top-15 pick for 1 year of any goalie. The Canes would rather draft Askarov and solve their goaltending problem for a decade than get a slight upgrade to Mrazek for 1 year.

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

I am going to avoid bringing up Nylander and Andersen, but they seem to fit that wishlist pretty well.

Outside of those two, could Hall be a possible UFA target? Goalie should be a bit easier with the hot market this offseason, although I am guessing Mrazek or Reimer would need to be going the other way to make it work.

Signing Hall would complicate bringing back Douggie.

If you believe in Necas’ upside, Nylander is redundant. The need is a player with some jam that can slide up and play with the Finns when the SAT line stops producing enough to compensate for what it does to the rest of the lineup and Svechnikov fills that 2nd line role. Ideally, Foegele develops into that, but that’s a definite question mark. The 2020 UFA market is not fertile in the regard. The 2021 class might be different with Saad, a player that Carolina tried to trade for in the Summer of 2018, and Toronto’s own Hyman, who may be the most interesting forward the Leafs have from a Carolina perspective.

 

[seanlinden]

Was this a blip year for Andersen or is he starting his 30s slide?

you were good on the argument until you threw in Carey Price.

Price 26-30: .927, .933, .934, .923, .900
Andersen 26-30: .919, .918, .918. 917, .909

As an outside observer, I think there's a big reason to believe this year was simply a blip.

You can look at Michael Hutchinson's absolutely abysmal numbers, and probably conclude that there were games last year Andersen played that he probably shouldn't have, simply because they had absolutely no confidence in their backup goalie. There were also likely games that he would have / should have been pulled, but wasn't for the same reason.

It's also not like his "down year" made him a sub .900 goalie... he went from .917-.918 to .909, and from the mid 2.7s to 2.85.

That being said, that's one of the great things about him having a 1 year deal -- you get to see what he's got in a better defensive environment, and then get to make a decision. You also get the benefit of him seeing this year's goalie market, and realizing that $8-9m is simply not on the table with COVID.

As for the Carey Price comparison, Andersen is .916/2.77 in 244 gp with 244 starts over the last 4 years. Carey Price is .913/2.62 in 235 games with 232 starts over the same period.

 

[7even]

we assume he is better than Reimer due to Andersen's past performances.

There's literally nothing else at all to form an opinion from.

Andersen is a risk to give up anything of note for. GMs are seeing that teams arent giving up a bunch for goalies. JR wants people to bite on a first for Murray. Everyone else isnt biting on that.

Yeah, I don't ever bet on goalies returning much. I'd say Andersen is quite a bit better than Murray. How do age, UFA, and salary interplay here? I don't know. I do think Andersen is one of the more interesting assets in the league right now though, what with rumors of teams being on the verge of being sold, he's a premier goalie owed almost league minimum. How much do teams care about that? Hard to say.