Proposal: Toronto and Columbus

MagicalRazor

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Oct 25, 2016
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HFBoards in a nutshell ladies and gentlemen.

ONE proven NHL defenseman!!

You didn't even sign Desrocher.

uhh ? are you missing out on the 2 Euros that played pro hocket and did quiet well? . With all the left handed d in the system someone needs to move and IMO it should be garinder . you will eat your crows in a year or 2 alot of Dman can easily progress to be NUMBER 4 D exactly what jake G is . HF in a nut shell is people thinking they are GM and have extream hockey knowledge like you but really have no ties into the hockey world , and barley got watch any sort of live hockey at a higher caliber
 

Ziggdiezan

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Apr 10, 2015
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uhh ? are you missing out on the 2 Euros that played pro hocket and did quiet well? . With all the left handed d in the system someone needs to move and IMO it should be garinder . you will eat your crows in a year or 2 alot of Dman can easily progress to be NUMBER 4 D exactly what jake G is . HF in a nut shell is people thinking they are GM and have extream hockey knowledge like you but really have no ties into the hockey world , and barley got watch any sort of live hockey at a higher caliber

You think Gardiner is a number 4? :laugh:

If it is so easy for defenders to be top 4 then why are the Leafs having such a hard time finding one. Such crazy statements
 

belair

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uhh ? are you missing out on the 2 Euros that played pro hocket and did quiet well? . With all the left handed d in the system someone needs to move and IMO it should be garinder . you will eat your crows in a year or 2 alot of Dman can easily progress to be NUMBER 4 D exactly what jake G is . HF in a nut shell is people thinking they are GM and have extream hockey knowledge like you but really have no ties into the hockey world , and barley got watch any sort of live hockey at a higher caliber

Did I stutter?

ONE PROVEN NHL DEFENSEMAN

Doesn't that argument work both ways? What has Murray done other getting drafted 2 OA, honesty is he half the defenseman that Gardiner is? How do the numbers bear out.

JJ sucks and Murray < Gardiner, the OP proposal is silly.

Look at what I responded to.
 

LeafingTheWay

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May 31, 2014
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As a Habs fan, seriously, Gardiner is a stud but come on, he's not worth two top 4 dmen.

Why pay for Johnson/Murray when we can play a better 2LHD Gardiner and have our 3LHD filled by a quality young CHEAP prospect in Dermott/Borgman or Nielsen/Rosen. We'll need capspace soon and we'll be relying internally to fill the bottom-positions/bottom-pairing.
 

mikeyp24

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Jun 28, 2014
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lets simplify it

Bozak + 2nd for Murray
The only REALISTIC player the CBJ would want for TOR at F is Kadri. We have better D and G. Murray+1st for Kadri is max of go but I'm also not a Kadri fan at all so I personally don't want him on the team because there are.much better options for us 1 being just stay pat but if there was a deal and it had to be made the only player (again realistically because Nylander nor Mathews would be available and those would be the only other 2 that would help us out and I would consider better then what we have in certain spots) is Kadri and I wouldn't give more then Murray and a first. Maybe Murray and Milano buuuuuuuut that might be too much.
 

mikeyp24

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Jun 28, 2014
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Seeing how the advance stats marks don't even consider JJ an NHL caliber talent, Murray is just ok, a pick is always nice but not a need for the Leafs. Total pass.

Don't want to give up a C where we have no depth and the best defenseman in the deal. People saying CBJ is getting rip off? The **** does this deal do for the Leafs?
And this is just hilarious. A guy who was recognized as half of the best (at worst top 5) shut down pairs in the entire league in JJ isn't NHL caliber and a 24yo shut down D who started and starred as the top shutdown pair for Team NA is ok. Can you tell me all of the accomplishments of Gardiner that makes him this Karlson level D? Because JJ and Murray are both top pairing capable D. JJ at this point is a #3 and a ****ing stud #3 at that. After being forces to play high 20s with no partner for years he is finally playing in his right spot. Murray played top pair with many guys while protecting them so They could be more aggressive. After Jones was traded here that entire season he dominated as a shut down guy with Jones and followed that into the world cup. He took a cheap elbow from Keith to the head and when he missed a game to recover Werenski and Jones showed so much potential offensively that Murray slid down and they used him yet again to cover up the flaws of a weaker player.

So no I know the mythical Gardiner is legendary but is not better then either Jacket alone let alone both. He is more valuable then JJ because contract status alone and that's it. So there is negative chance the jackets would do any trade for him because we have 3 better plus a kid in Carlson who I think is likely to be better as well. I do think he's better then our current #6 in Nutivaara though so he could be our #6!!!

That's what the OP is trading us a 3C and then trading 2 2/3D for a guy who would be our 6 but would be a 4 after we traded 2 better D... that's extremely ****** asset management that I would not expect from.one of the best GMs in the league as of recent years...
 

Brock Radunske

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The only REALISTIC player the CBJ would want for TOR at F is Kadri. We have better D and G. Murray+1st for Kadri is max of go but I'm also not a Kadri fan at all so I personally don't want him on the team because there are.much better options for us 1 being just stay pat but if there was a deal and it had to be made the only player (again realistically because Nylander nor Mathews would be available and those would be the only other 2 that would help us out and I would consider better then what we have in certain spots) is Kadri and I wouldn't give more then Murray and a first. Maybe Murray and Milano buuuuuuuut that might be too much.

I wouldn't even consider that for a second as a Leafs fan.
 

mikeyp24

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Jun 28, 2014
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I wouldn't even consider that for a second as a Leafs fan.
Understandable because when I say that I'm not taking into account your teams needs or what you can give away. I'm just stating from your roster who we would want/habe use for then what we have in assets that have value and the max combination those assets of be willing to move in return for that asset. I also am probably one of the people on this site that has probably the lowest opinion of Kadris talent level. Based on my own watching and looking at leaf fans opinions of Kadri (before this past season) I'm not incredibly high on him and neither were more then probably 75% of leaf fans before last year as the probably 100+ trade threads trying to move him for scraps would show. 1 season has changed all their opinions but its not going to change mine.

The only F I would want from TOR that make sense to us are:
Mathews
Nylander
Kadri (Only because we need C but there are probably 10 better options)

JVR IMO is more then talented enough that I'd like him on our team but not over Panarin, Foligno, or Jenner right now. That's why he's not on the list.

Right now our D is:
Jones Werenski
Savard JJ
Murray Carlson/Nutivaara

As far as that goes there is no one in their D I take before our top 5 and honestly Carlson is looking like a stud and is young so for his development and our future bringing in another player D and pushing him to the AHL makes so sense so I wouldn't bring in a D from any team right now anyways. Not to mention Gavrikov in 2 years who stayed in Russia to play for Russia in the Olympics. He was slotted in by management to at minimum make the team this year just wasn't sure of where.but he signed in the KHL saying he personally didn't think he was NHL ready and he wanted to play for Russia. I wouldn't take Z, Reilly, or Gardiner over our top 5 right now.

And goalies is just obvious we have Bob.
 

klamla

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Jan 3, 2016
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Understandable because when I say that I'm not taking into account your teams needs or what you can give away. I'm just stating from your roster who we would want/habe use for then what we have in assets that have value and the max combination those assets of be willing to move in return for that asset. I also am probably one of the people on this site that has probably the lowest opinion of Kadris talent level. Based on my own watching and looking at leaf fans opinions of Kadri (before this past season) I'm not incredibly high on him and neither were more then probably 75% of leaf fans before last year as the probably 100+ trade threads trying to move him for scraps would show. 1 season has changed all their opinions but its not going to change mine.

The only F I would want from TOR that make sense to us are:
Mathews
Nylander
Kadri (Only because we need C but there are probably 10 better options)

JVR IMO is more then talented enough that I'd like him on our team but not over Panarin, Foligno, or Jenner right now. That's why he's not on the list.

Right now our D is:
Jones Werenski
Savard JJ
Murray Carlson/Nutivaara

As far as that goes there is no one in their D I take before our top 5 and honestly Carlson is looking like a stud and is young so for his development and our future bringing in another player D and pushing him to the AHL makes so sense so I wouldn't bring in a D from any team right now anyways. Not to mention Gavrikov in 2 years who stayed in Russia to play for Russia in the Olympics. He was slotted in by management to at minimum make the team this year just wasn't sure of where.but he signed in the KHL saying he personally didn't think he was NHL ready and he wanted to play for Russia. I wouldn't take Z, Reilly, or Gardiner over our top 5 right now.

And goalies is just obvious we have Bob.

"When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?"
 

Toronto makebeleifs

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Jul 4, 2014
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This deal does favor toronto; the only reason Toronto doesn't do it is the $$ involved with Murray and jj going forward. Bummer though, I'd pull the trigger otherwise
 

mikeyp24

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"When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?"
If I were paid $100 a week every week for 7 years then one year I get $125 a week do I trust the past 7 years or expect that 1 year to be a peak... give me 5 years at that level and sure.
 

klamla

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Jan 3, 2016
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If I were paid $100 a week every week for 7 years then one year I get $125 a week do I trust the past 7 years or expect that 1 year to be a peak... give me 5 years at that level and sure.

If your pay was raised to $125, then your pay is now $125. so i would expect that to be coming in the mail every week.

the analogy ends there though, as there will be one day where you pay will go back down to 100, and even further below that eventually.

was the 125 a one time mistake by your company? maybe, and i understand your hesitation - maybe he needs to play at 125 for a bit longer for you to buy in. that's understandable. i was just pointing out that, hopefully you are open minded enough to realize when that point is (for you, subjectively)
 

NarcoPolo

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Jul 16, 2012
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As a Habs fan, seriously, Gardiner is a stud but come on, he's not worth two top 4 dmen.

Johnson isn't good and Gardiner is better than both him and murray. Why give up the better player for two lesser ones?
 

mikeyp24

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Jun 28, 2014
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If your pay was raised to $125, then your pay is now $125. so i would expect that to be coming in the mail every week.

the analogy ends there though, as there will be one day where you pay will go back down to 100, and even further below that eventually.

was the 125 a one time mistake by your company? maybe, and i understand your hesitation - maybe he needs to play at 125 for a bit longer for you to buy in. that's understandable. i was just pointing out that, hopefully you are open minded enough to realize when that point is (for you, subjectively)
I'm very very open to being proved wrong with athletes especially if I hated a player before they came to my team. I've been proved right like when we signed Horton and proved so very wrong when we got Dubi. I only get to see at most 10 Toronto games a year and the rest are nightly highlights and leafs fans assessments. So for years I have seen and been told 2C and at some times I have seen 3C (Not as often that bad though to be honest) but mostly I've felt low tier 2C. Last year that was not even close to how he played. The problem with that is this year also happened to be the year they started the year with 3 extremely high talent rookies and the 2nd year after Babcock had time with his team to get them into his style. So how much of that was a factor in his numbers rising? Did he just need better coaching and players or did those players and coach make him better. Was it just those specific players/coach or would he play just as well with other good young players and with any other good coach.

My opinion of him for my team is I'd accept him on my team if they felt like he would be a fit as a 2C here BUT only for the right price. The unknowns outweigh the known to give up to much value. He is also young enough and on a contract that if he can repeatedly produce what he did last year that value would be really high and he is on a team to where that's likely more valuable to them then it would be to trade.

So in that case again it doesn't make much sense for TOR to trade Kadri unless they think Nylander or Marner moves to 2C (Nylander more likely I'd assume) and they don't want to pay over 5mil for a 3C. I have had very little watchings of the Russian D you guys got last year to have a long term opinion of the guy. From what I've seen and based on what I've read TOR fans saying trying to weed through the over hype he's a solid 4. Gardiner had a excellent year through me watching last year but before that he has been pretty average. I'd say he's very dependable but nothing extraordinary. He's like the dependable top 4 that every team has that fans if other teams never name because he doesn't stand out but he's important to what you want to accomplish. Kinda like a few of my CBJ guys but a little lower in the rankings IMO. And Reilly again IMO is the most overrated D in the league as far as fan praise goes but that's only because you guys have the loudest fan base haha. Nothing rude or attacking there it's just like all sports the most popular teams often have a player or 2 that is pretty good but simce he's on the team with the most fans that player gets way over hyped. To me that's Reilly. I'd rather have guys like Trouba, Lindholm, Murray, etc from that draft. The only thing keeping Murrays career numbers less then Reillys is his injuries. SOOOO that long opinion was to state you guys have a few ok D but could surely use another. You know who is available? The guy drafted ahead of Reilly and who started all key defensive roles on a team thwy played together on by Reillys own coach. He's a 24yo who has played 2/3 D every year but 1 and is a shut down monster. Along with him you can have a 1st in a deep draft or Milano, a 21yo extremely creative winger who just lead his AHL team in points last year and now has the 200ft game to go with his creativity. He has been NHL ready for 2 years but stuck behind Saad, Foligno, Hartnell, and Jenner. You can't blame a kid for his team not playing him over 4 NHL guys who have all scored 30 goals in there careers.

Those are 2 great pieces for Kadri, that's almost the same deal fans/Team have been making for Duchene so it's not a low ball. Duchene is going to be more valued then Kadri (at least by non Canadian citizen fans) and we would still likely pay this because he is a little more defensive minded and the Jackets are a very 2way oriented team.

Also note I promise I'm not trying to neg or degrade any players to make my player sound better. I'm just saying my honest thoughts based on my viewings and opinions I have seen leafs fans have heavily weighing opinions BEFORE this year for players like Kadri and Gardiner because I trust say a 5 year history of play more then 1 year. This goes for my Murray opinion as well. 1 year with rough stats because talent pushes him down to playing with a euro rookie on his offside doesn't make him a 3rd pairing. He's been a 2/3 his entire career. This year he never played PP as to previous years getting good time even playing top pair some times. So again just my opinions and I understand many TOR fans will disagree.

The deal is still throw out is:
Kadri for Murray + Milano or 1st
Again this is very close to what we would offer for Duchene.
 

mikeyp24

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Jun 28, 2014
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Johnson isn't good and Gardiner is better than both him and murray. Why give up the better player for two lesser ones?
Previous to this year which I'm going to assume was a career year for Gardiner based on a few people posting in here... why were most leaf fans putting him in trade offers for just picks or throw ins or for other project players? Then most other teams would say we don't want Gardiner, why do you guys always add in Gardiner, lol we don't need Gardiner pass. He was the defensive Verizon of JVR or pre this past year Kadri. Now all if a sudden he is more valuable then one of the most respected veteran work horses in the league JJ.

Jack Johnson is not just a stud #3 defender right now in his career he has completely revamped his game to suit the new needs we had. We just brought in Jones and drafted Werenski which meant we no longer needed to depend on JJ as our PPQB and our only decent defensive shot. This was the first year he wasn't on the PP in probably his entire career if not then since the very beginning. Instead they roled him out as a shut down guy which people thought he used to be a black hole but he was never tasked to play this role. So this year he changed to play shut down and along with Savard he was part of the top shut down pair in the league. If not THE best it was top 3 to 5. Every time they were on national broad cast and every away feed I listened to he was consistently talked about for the defense he was playing. Both him and Savard were +30 towards the end of the year with ZERO PP time to inflate that. Playing PK and no real offensive zone starts and still being that high in the plus shows how good he played there. What was Gardiners +/-? You can try and argue what you think of that stat but it is very telling when you add the context to it I just did.

There's no reason to argue Murray over Gardiner because not 1 fan base outside of Columbus understand the situation we have with too many top pair quality defenders that we literally just can't play every D we have as a 2/3 there isn't enough minutes in a game and then you have to add in chemistry and handedness and JJ/Savard have the best chemistry for D on our team and I'd say top 10 out of all D pairs in the league just look at the numbers of how often other teams score against them when out there compared to how much we score with them out there last year and that's all the proof you need. So outside fans will never research or care for context because why should they it's not their team... but they will also never understand how good Murray is or his actual value because they fail to be reasonable. So there is 0 reason to argue with anyone who will not listen to reason. And this point is not to any 1 particular fan base or fan it's to everyone. Hell it applies to 1 or 2 CBJ fans who believe this too but those fans also believe our front office is terrible, we shouldn't habe traded for Jones and would rather see the preds win over us (and no I don't mean the wonderful outspoken Viqsi either).

Basically no Gardiner is not better then JJ or Murray especially not worth both. He might however be more desirable because age and term in a vacuum but not for the Jackets.
 

lifelonghockeyfan

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Dec 18, 2015
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The picks really don't do much for the Leafs. Let's talk about the upcoming year.

Leafs need Bozak at centre this year. Leaf like the new Gardiner. I would say Bozak and Gardiner are the two if not best the most needed players in the deal.

Johnson and especially Murray don't improve the Leafs defence. Even if Johnson and Gardiner are even, Murray is easily interchangeable. with current Leafs.
 

Brock Radunske

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The deal is still throw out is:
Kadri for Murray + Milano or 1st
Again this is very close to what we would offer for Duchene.

Honestly, you're way better off dealing with the Avs in that case.
Under no circumstances would Murray be the main piece coming back for a player like Kadri.
Partly because he would be on the 3rd pairing (LHD) for the Leafs and partially because he's a pretty underwhelming player.
If he was a RHD, maybe a deal could be made with him and Jenner coming back because at least he'd have a spot he can contribute in.
 

Kamiccolo

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Johnson and Bozak are washes as they are UFA's and Toronto can't afford either of them anyway so they are gone for sure.

Picks do nothing, Leafs are trying to win.

So in reality, they downgrade from Gardiner to Murray? Why do they do this? That is a MASSIVE drop off in an already weak area on the roster.
 

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