TSN: Toronto’s salary cap balancing act, through the eyes of McDavid, Toews and Tavares

[LeafsNation75]

and how does that effect the public backlash against the media ownership if the team now ships out the kids before they even have a chance to win a playoff round? im not sure you understood a word I said... but you make my case for me

this was an exceptional change in mapleleaf management... instead of promising the fans we will try to make the playoffs this ownership group said we will suck a few years... draft some kids with high picks... and THEN WE WILL WIN

so that ship sailed... now they got the kids... now they MUST KEEP THE KIDS

this is a market denied a cup win for 50 years now. if they tell the fans they are going lose marner because he wants 9 mill or lose Matthews because he wants 11... the fans are going to argue, but Matthews is just as good as McDavid... marner is better than draisaitl… SIGN THESE KIDS!!!

the amount of money Toronto can generate if they have the fans support is staggering... and if they lose the fan support it will be extremely significant

that's my point
that's what I said in my original post

this ISNT only about hockey... this is very much about business and a PO management

It was already mentioned how other teams like Pittsburgh, Chicago, Tampa Bay and Washington have been able to keep their core players. Considering that the salary cap has been going up each year for a while Toronto will have no problem re-signing Matthews, Marner and Nylander will eventually happen.

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

It was already mentioned how other teams like Pittsburgh, Chicago, Tampa Bay and Washington have been able to keep their core players. Considering that the salary cap has been going up each year for a while Toronto will have no problem re-signing Matthews, Marner and Nylander will eventually happen.

I have no skin in the game... you do, so obviously lets hope you are right

my educated opinion says theres serious trouble for several of these young teams... Edmonton, Winnipeg, Columbus... you draft well and your team is ripped apart before it wins a thing. this isn't 10 years ago when pittsburg, Chicago, and Washington were able to build. this is the new nhl of the past 2 years when things went kaboom

 

[Ace Card Bedard]

Gonna be tough for the Leafs to keep their young core together, especially if they win a cup. Success means higher salaries demanded.

But guess what Leafs fans, it's totally worth it if you get to see your players raise that trophy even once.

 

[Danny1237]

This is a very solid analysis. Thank you. I agree adding Tavares is ultimately adding a net positive to the top six. If that is the plan, perhaps their need for legitimate F replacements isn't as dire in the short term.

So if the Leafs' long-term plan is to load up the top two lines, my question is if they feel they have the defensive depth to prevent goals at a reasonable enough rate. How confident are they that they can build a top six D unit capable of being competitive in the next few seasons? Factor in the likelihood that they may be hard-pressed to re-sign Jake Gardiner next summer.

I think the reality is that the Leafs weakness is going to be their D group. There is no perfect team in the NHL. They will never be able to build a D that matches up well against Nashville's D, just as Nashville wouldn't be able to build a forward group that matches up well against Toronto's forwards.

I think it comes down to mitigation. The Leafs will likely prioritize D who do a decent job of neutral zone D, move the puck out of their own zone well, and help gain the blueline with control. This will just decrease the amount of time there is pressure on their greatest weakness. If Toronto can do this while also creating a good special teams advantage, they have a team that can exert their advantages over another team in any 7 game series. It doesn't guarantee a win, because chances are if they want to win, they will face teams who will be doing the opposite, and trying to exert their advantage on the blueline over the Leafs.

The good news for the Leafs is that generally, top end offensive talent is hard to get without top 10 picks. So having that part of your team in place when you start being a perennial playoff team is an advantage. Underrated D get let go, fall in the draft, and come out of nowhere way more often than forwards. So while the Leafs aren't likely to build a stellar D, there is probably a better chance to improve that area of your team without top picks than it is to grab a #1 center without one. Also, the type of D the leafs will priortize, will likely get undervalued a lot. Think similar to the Vegas D, in the sense that they were all guys other teams were willing to give up on, but as a whole were actually pretty good. Not saying the Leafs will find 6 guys, but with Rielly and Dermott under control, they already have some talent to go with a couple of recent first round D picks. So adding one or two underrated top 4 guys to that group, or finding one your own organization previously underrated, will have a pretty big impact, even if they lose Gardiner. Again, that won't make it a strenght, but if you get 4 guys capable of moving the puck well, who are all solid top 4 guys, and your team strategy is around keeping the puck in the forwards possession, you have a team that can win against anyone as long as they execute their game plan better than the opposition.

In today's NHL, I think that is the most you can ask for.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

First of all, the Leafs don't need guys to take discounts to stay together. They just need to take reasonable deals that are in the "comparables" area.

Secondly, Mitch Marner may mess things up by being too good too fast. Last summer I expected he'd sign for about what Nylander will get.

Based on his last 50 games, he's going to get a fair bit more.

I won't worry about it. We have some of the best cap people in the business on it. One of which wrote the damned cap rules.

Good points but there are a few other things to consider.

#1 - An extra million or 1.5 million here and there could mean that we could get squeezed as far as giving competitive contracts for the "supporting cast" & role players that are also important in forming a championship team.

Also, the guys that wrote the cap rules don't have anything to do with setting the maximum team cap number.

Further, we really don't know if the cap will continue to rise as its done recently. We don't know what the new CBA will have in it that could change the outlook. We do know that the majority of teams and their GMs either cannot operate, or would prefer to operate at a lower number (below current and also potential future maximums).

Hopefully it all works out, but saying these things with certainty and conviction isn't really possible.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

What if the team wants to trade them even with a NTC or a NMC? It happened when the Leafs wanted to trade Kessel despite him having a NTC.

Yes, and this along with other factors really constrained and limited the amount of teams that could pursue Kessel resulting in the lower return that we actually did get.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

...In a market with no personal income tax that is a much easier task.

...or you do like they did with Tavares (which not that many teams can do) and heavily front load/bonus structure the contract. Money in hand today that can be invested can make up losses due to taxes. Not to mention there are other things you can personally do if tax is your issue:

Take Tavares:

Signing bonuses paid to a resident of the US by a Canadian team are taxed at 15% in Canada, and vice versa for US teams paying bonuses to Canadian residents.

Having his signing bonus taxed at the low rate of 15% in Canada ensures that Tavares would receive a full foreign tax credit on his US return for all taxes paid in Canada on both is signing bonus and his salary each season. If he plans properly, he could save over $11.7 million over the life of his contract.

Buying a home in Florida is not enough to become a Florida resident, especially if he is on a seven-year contract in Canada. He would need most treaty tie-breakers for residency to go to the US/Florida. Thus, he would need to avoid having a permanent abode in Canada. Simply put, he should not own real estate nor get a twelve-month lease in Toronto. Go with a nine-month lease each season. Then he would have to spend his offseason in Florida. This would ensure that he would pay the 37% US federal rate on his signing bonus instead of Ontario’s 53.53%

Even if he decides to remain a New York resident, he would save nearly $5.5 million in taxes over being a Canadian resident
Tavares may decide he does not want to deal with the hassle of going back and forth to the US in the offseason.

He can still save nearly $8.8 million by setting up Retirement Compensation Account (RCA) upon his return to Canada.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

I know there is so much concerned about the Leaf cap situation but it look better some other teams.

Kings have Kopitar and Doughty at 21m. then Kovi and Brown. at 12m...which may not end well.
Ducks Getzalf, Perry, Henrique, Kesler. 29m

And the Jets...who are real good team will. have issues signing Laine, and Connor long term unless they rid themselves of iffy contracts such a Little, Perrault and Kulivov.

Sure, but by the same token that also means that all teams eventually have cap issues, even the Leafs eventually ...... no?

 

[FalcorMulch]

That said. I think teams are nuts what they pay rfa’s now. There’s a very short list of players, wingers especially, I’d give 7 million to at 22 or 23 years old.

The number of wingers who have been paid $7 million coming out of their ELC IS an extremely short list. It is three names long, Tarasenko ($7.5 million), Stamkos ($7.5 million) and Ovechkin ($9.5 million).

 

[FalcorMulch]

Marner will have a big season next year playing on Tavares line and will ask for 10 mil.

Marner does not become the league's second highest paid winger, and highest paid 22 year old winger by a wide, wide margin, because of one big season. His agent can ask for it but he's not going to get a $10 million contract.

 

[FerrisRox]

...or you do like they did with Tavares (which not that many teams can do) and heavily front load/bonus structure the contract. Money in hand today that can be invested can make up losses due to taxes. Not to mention there are other things you can personally do if tax is your issue:

Take Tavares:

Signing bonuses paid to a resident of the US by a Canadian team are taxed at 15% in Canada, and vice versa for US teams paying bonuses to Canadian residents.

Having his signing bonus taxed at the low rate of 15% in Canada ensures that Tavares would receive a full foreign tax credit on his US return for all taxes paid in Canada on both is signing bonus and his salary each season. If he plans properly, he could save over $11.7 million over the life of his contract.

Buying a home in Florida is not enough to become a Florida resident, especially if he is on a seven-year contract in Canada. He would need most treaty tie-breakers for residency to go to the US/Florida. Thus, he would need to avoid having a permanent abode in Canada. Simply put, he should not own real estate nor get a twelve-month lease in Toronto. Go with a nine-month lease each season. Then he would have to spend his offseason in Florida. This would ensure that he would pay the 37% US federal rate on his signing bonus instead of Ontario’s 53.53%

Even if he decides to remain a New York resident, he would save nearly $5.5 million in taxes over being a Canadian resident
Tavares may decide he does not want to deal with the hassle of going back and forth to the US in the offseason.

He can still save nearly $8.8 million by setting up Retirement Compensation Account (RCA) upon his return to Canada.

Or you sign in Tampa and avoid it altogether. You seem to be making my point, not yours.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Or you sign in Tampa and avoid it altogether. You seem to be making my point, not yours.

I didn't think you really had a point (at least not one that held much merit)?

 

[FerrisRox]

I didn't think you really had a point (at least not one that held much merit)?

Then you are hilariously naive on the topic.

 

[threeVo]

I skipped a bunch of pages, but without the cheating contracts of players like Hossa Crosby Keith etc those teams would have a much harder time keeping players. This day and age it’s not likely to keep all these young players

 

[lifelonghockeyfan]

Sure, but by the same token that also means that all teams eventually have cap issues, even the Leafs eventually ...... no?

Really cap issues are when teams have too many bad contracts...or retained salaries or buyout money on the books.
Assuming the Leafs have fair contracts, cap problems aren't really an issue. I think there might be bigger cap issues (not a problem) in a few years if players like Grundstrom, Dermott, Borgman or Kapanen. become good players and are deserving of bigger contracts than puts them over the cap. Then someone has to be traded maybe Nylander.
But if having too many good players on fair contracts isn't a problem...you can always trade someone and get some value in return, and then you also "hope" you have competent cheaper players to fill their positions,.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Yes, and this along with other factors really constrained and limited the amount of teams that could pursue Kessel resulting in the lower return that we actually did get.

Never mind the fact that Pittsburgh was the only team on Kessel's approved trade list who talked to Shanahan, Dubas and Hunter about trading for him.

 

[Ulysses31]

The Avalanche would love to have one of them on the team. lol. As we will be looking at 35 million in cap room next offseason with only Rants and Z to resign to be deals

does it makes sense for avs to offersheet 8mil?

 

[Nylanderthal]

Careful! This type of thinking gets tossed out the window the second the injury parade followed by a losing streak starts.

But you are right about the comparables. Problem is on teams like Toronto with large signings like Tavares, your internal cap comparisons is way off compared to almost every other team.

Is Nylander a 5 or 6 million dollar less of a player than Tavares? I don’t know. But I doubt he or his agent thinks so.

It’ll be interesting to see how it all turns out

Conversely is he worth 2-3m more than Kadri and Rielly when looking at team structure? I’d say both are way more important players to the success of the team than a 20g winger

 

[CokenoPepsi]

Dont get me wrong, I understand what they are saying. But anyone else find it ridiculous that you've got players griping about having a short window to make money for the rest of your life or about having to earn money to take care of their families. These guys (making $10M+) all are earning more in one year that about 99% of north americans will earn over their entire careers.

I think I would rather just hear them acknowledge the fact that everyone wants to earn money in line with how they view their value compared to their contemporaries. It's about being value and recognized (for a lot of people). I know as much as I want the company I work for to be prosperous and succesful, I would have a very hard time earning less than what I think I'm worth. I know it's not exactly the same thing as they are living out dreams and trying to win championships compared to me working a job that I didn't even know existed growing up, but you get my point

Yes that always annoyed me i mean c'mon

I remember Chris Bosh when he was on the Heat was mad because someone played tough D on him and he got hurt...the next day he used the "i'm just trying to provide for my family!" bit

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Then you are hilariously naive on the topic.

...says the guy who thinks rich people with high paid accountants and lawyers can't figure out ways around taxes?

 

[easton117]

Conversely is he worth 2-3m more than Kadri and Rielly when looking at team structure? I’d say both are way more important players to the success of the team than a 20g winger

Ya that’s true.

Agents don’t negotiate backwards in time though. Maybe better if they were made to!

 

[Mickey Marner]

...says the guy who thinks rich people with high paid accountants and lawyers can't figure out ways around taxes?

C'mon, rich people hate paying taxes, that's why none of them live in California, New York, Ontario or Quebec.