Torment: Tides of Numenera

[Mount Suribachi]

Anyone played this? I searched and couldn't find a thread.

Planescape: Torment is one of my all time favourite games, one of the greatest RPGs ever. So when I saw an advert for it on YT last night I got super excited as I'd not heard of it before.

Any feedback from anyone who's played it.

Click to read more...

 

[RandV]

I backed it on kickstarter, haven't gotten into it yet. Pillars of Eternity was the kickstarter spiritual successor to Balders Gate, and was received pretty well, but reading what other people are saying it doesn't look like Tides of Numenera holds up nearly as well.

The lots of reading part is there, but otherwise it looks like they dropped kick starter goals and changed some gameplay elements (combat) to focus on being able to cross-platform release it on consoles.

 

[SniperHF]

Any feedback from anyone who's played it.

I've played it all throughout the beta and now, though I'm still not that far into the release version.

Here's sort of the bullet points:
1. The combat is just okay. It's really easy and while I think it's an improvement on its spiritual predecessor due to being turn based and less frequent it's still not nearly as good as other contemporary turn based RPGs. It does have some neat ideas in that there are multiple ways to end fights and you can even dialog mid fight.

2. The entire underlying Numenera systems suck. Effort is a neat concept but makes the game way too easy. It never feels like you can't do something which is critically important in an RPG.

3. One of the clear goals of the game was less trash combat and while that was good compared to PS:T, there's actually too little combat now. It's hard to get a feel for the system at first because you can have a couple combats early and then never fight again for 8 hours depending on how your dialog checks go.

4. The sheer volume of dialog checks is great and NPCs notice things you do, much more than all but a handful of other games. However as I said before "effort" makes them too easy which is actually unfortunate because failing dialog checks can be quite interesting in TToN and they are usually not a roadblock as such. In fact often times just passing the dialog check is the least interesting way to complete a task because you might lose out on figuring out the other ways.

5. Again, I've only played up through the original beta area which is about 10 hours, but the great exploration of Sigil is not something that's present in TToN. The characters are there to talk to, there are things to find, but it's much more condensed and there isn't as much going on.

6. A lot of people really complain about NPCs talking to much or lore dumps or whatever, well it's a freaking Torment successor so anyone who says that you can probably ignore to some degree. There is one major problem though in that the game sort of fails on the "show, don't tell" principle but really most dialog heavy RPGs including PS:T do to some degree anyway.

7. The writing is actually nearly great moment to moment. I really like each individual character's story and generally the way they are told. Some of them are very emotional despite being almost all text. They do a lot with a little.

8. Where it fails in writing where PS:T succeeded (though not as great as people think it did IMO) is it lacks cohesiveness and broader themes. In PS:T I WANTED to know about Deionarra. There's no moment anywhere close to "Don't trust the skull". The main plot is simply not compelling and it lacks a clear theme. Maybe this will open up as I play more but I'm 10 hours into a supposedly 20-25 hour game so....

9. The Tides system is not nearly as prevalent as it should be. The game really lacks a character system connection to the game outside of dialog checks. PS:T did this better with the death system and changing classes mid-game. The other spiritual predecessor, Mask of the Betrayer did it best of all. If you haven't played that one you should check it out.

10. The quests are a little too easy and information is spoon fed to the player. There are a few gems though.


For the record I'm not the biggest Planescape Torment fan in the world so you might take my criticisms with that in mind . PS:T was an okay game with some really horrible combat, above average exploration, and some of the best writing in a game ever.


If you're in the camp who thinks PS:T is the greatest RPG ever, well I'd obviously disagree but you will certainly find a lot to like in TToN. As should any classic RPG fan outside of those who play only for combat.


For what RandV said, I don't think the console stuff hurts much other than the UI. And I'm probably the biggest console hater on the site . The kickstarter goals and changed content though is very real but the bigger issue there is for me as a backer not that they changed/cut things as that's to be expected in kickstarters. It's that they were extremely underhanded in how they handled it to the point that I won't give InXile any more crowdfunding. But that has little to do with the game itself and it does a lot to make people go crazy and color their perceptions of what's actually there. So take caution reading reviews. Oh and it's better than Pillars but I could write a whole other book on disappointments in that game

The game itself is solid, a bit lacking in systems, combat could be a lot better. Sounds kinda like PS:T doesn't it

 

[divitorobert]

RPGs are back. REAL RPGs. None of this casual pandering that alienates the core fanbase.

 

[Mount Suribachi]

Thanks for the replies guys. Interesting comments about the combat, made me remember thinking back just how little combat there was in PST (I remember the over the top spells though).

What I loved PST for the most was the characters. I was emotionally invested in them like I've never been before or since in a computer game. Books have the power to make you care about characters, rarely computer games. Annah was such a scared, damaged young woman behind the brash exterior - I just wanted to protect her. Dak'kon had suffered terribly at the actions of the Nameless One. And what had been done to Ignus to make him a pyromancer, that was painful to read. By the end of the game, I wanted more than anything for TNO to be able to atone for his sins. If I wanted more combat I would have played IWD (which I never have finished, despite three attempts)

Interesting comments - are there any plans for updates of DLC to address any of the issues?

 

[SniperHF]

Thanks for the replies guys. Interesting comments about the combat, made me remember thinking back just how little combat there was in PST (I remember the over the top spells though).

What I loved PST for the most was the characters. I was emotionally invested in them like I've never been before or since in a computer game. Books have the power to make you care about characters, rarely computer games. Annah was such a scared, damaged young woman behind the brash exterior - I just wanted to protect her. Dak'kon had suffered terribly at the actions of the Nameless One. And what had been done to Ignus to make him a pyromancer, that was painful to read. By the end of the game, I wanted more than anything for TNO to be able to atone for his sins. If I wanted more combat I would have played IWD (which I never have finished, despite three attempts)

Interesting comments - are there any plans for updates of DLC to address any of the issues?

TBH I Think you're forgetting just how much trash combat PST had . All the damn cranium rats, the random thugs in sigil, almost the entirety of curst and beyond. The shadows at the end. It was really trash combat though so it goes by fast and you can ignore it mostly.


They have said there will be patches with some of the cut content but I doubt it will be all that much. If you have the itch just play now.

I'd also say that the companions are less compelling than the ones in PST but you're up against a gold standard there. Before when I spoke highly of the writing, I was mainly talking about non-party members. TToN is certainly a cut of above other RPGs in party member dialog but I think both MoTB and PST were better. It's probably pretty close Pillars companions actually. Better than the Wasteland 2's and Divinitys as recent examples.

 

[RandV]

For what RandV said, I don't think the console stuff hurts much other than the UI. And I'm probably the biggest console hater on the site .

The idea that found its way into my head was that the combat engine was made in a way that's reasonable on controllers. For the typical infinity engine style active-pause combat you kind of need a mouse.

I'm still going to reserve judgement until I give it a playthrough, and I never actually played Planescape Torment so I have no expectations to live up to. So I have nothing against the game yet, rather was just summarizing the negative reviews around it.

 

[SniperHF]

The idea that found its way into my head was that the combat engine was made in a way that's reasonable on controllers. For the typical infinity engine style active-pause combat you kind of need a mouse.

Ah I see what you mean. Yeah the turn based decision was a fan vote before there was even a prototype.
http://tormentrpg.tumblr.com/post/66194576273/updated-our-journal-24-roll-for-initiative

They pretty clearly preferred turn based but I think if the vote was lopsided enough for RTwP they would have gone that way.

It does certainly help for making it playable on consoles but this predates even WL2's console version.

 

[Osprey]

And I'm probably the biggest console hater on the site .

Hey now. Be careful with claims like that. If I have to, I will fight you for that distinction.

 

[Jasper]

Not really interested in this from what I've heard. I don't know why there can't just be more sword and armour games like Baldur's Gate without overbearing story anymore.

 

[Mount Suribachi]

Not really interested in this from what I've heard. I don't know why there can't just be more sword and armour games like Baldur's Gate without overbearing story anymore.

Sounds like you want a fantasy version of XCOM

 

[Commander Clueless]

Dumb question, but as someone who missed out on Planescape Torment back in the day, is this game worth picking up? Would I be totally lost?

 

[SniperHF]

Dumb question, but as someone who missed out on Planescape Torment back in the day, is this game worth picking up? Would I be totally lost?

It's a spiritual successor in the sense that it's similar thematically, but has absolutely nothing to do with Planescape otherwise.

 

[Commander Clueless]

It's a spiritual successor in the sense that it's similar thematically, but has absolutely nothing to do with Planescape otherwise.

Awesome, thanks Sniper.

Might look into picking this up. Sounds like some old school fun.

 

[Caeldan]

Sounds like you want a fantasy version of XCOM

That would actually be ridiculously awesome. Broken Chalice is probably the closest to that which I can think of

 

[Do Make Say Think]

sounds like you want a fantasy version of xcom

YES! Please!!

 

[RandV]

Not really interested in this from what I've heard. I don't know why there can't just be more sword and armour games like Baldur's Gate without overbearing story anymore.

For a "fantasy version of X-Com" Battle Brothers might be worth checking out, just left early access on Steam today. Haven't tried it yet, have just had it in my wishlist.

 

[Jasper]

Sounds like you want a fantasy version of XCOM

I didn't like XCOM for some reason but I think you're correct.

 

[Jasper]

For a "fantasy version of X-Com" Battle Brothers might be worth checking out, just left early access on Steam today. Haven't tried it yet, have just had it in my wishlist.

That does look interesting. A little pricey but the Steam reviews are great. May check it out this weekend.

 

[Mount Suribachi]

I think I'll definitely pick up Tides, but wanna finish Ghost Recon first, and I also like the look of Divinity: Original Sin, especially as its 2 player co-op so I can play it with my son

 

[SniperHF]

OOOKay so minor spoiler / discussion time:

I just arrived at the Bloom for reference:

The main plot is simply not compelling and it lacks a clear theme. Maybe this will open up as I play more but I'm 10 hours into a supposedly 20-25 hour game so....

So basically this is still true, though it does get better plot wise the thematic angle of the game is almost non-existent. PST asks "What can change the nature of a man", TToN asks "What does one life matter".

Well:
[spoil] Yeah it asks it in the third area of the game and doesn't really hammer the theme home at all. One character so far as made reference to it.

Maybe there's something to the idea of your castoff character impacting the world as your "sire" did, in that you encounter and change the course of many characters in the early game. But it's not really tested or reflected on midway through, maybe in the end it will be but that's pretty weak.[/spoil]

As I said though the plot really does get cooking, perhaps in a way PST never does until the very end. Then it resets again and you get more freeroam time in the Bloom.

1. The combat is just okay. It's really easy and while I think it's an improvement on its spiritual predecessor due to being turn based and less frequent it's still not nearly as good as other contemporary turn based RPGs.

Unfortunately in the Valley (2nd area) most of the combats are quite pedestrian and lack a lot of variety the combats had in Sagus. Hopefully the Bloom is better.

[spoil]
Miel Avast has one huge intricate combat sequence, but it has a fatal flaw in that the soft timer is way too short leaving you little opportunity to play around with all the options[/spoil]


The biggest let down so far:
[spoil]Miel Avast is mentioned many times before you get there as a sanctuary for castoffs. Sure when you get there, there are a few major players there to talk to but it's really underwhelming. Only one area, maybe 5 important characters.

The quest in the area to get access to the mere is extremely weak too. The leader of the area wants you to do a few things for her but they don't require any independent thought and there's no wrong answers. It would have been the perfect opportunity to allow some sort of game knowledge or have a result from another quest impact the situation but there's nothing like that[/spoil]

The big reveal there^ is not terribly surprising but could have gone either way. I'm interested to find out if it's a misdirection or not. Kinda hoping it is.

Overall I'm still quite happy with the quality of the moment to moment writing, the plot is reasonably interesting but lacks promised broader themes, and the combat is not very good.