Trade: [TOR/SA] Leonard and Green to TOR for DeRozan, Poeltl and draft considerations

[Stylizer1]

I would. think this trade hurts the Raptors...long term.
When Masai is talking to UFA about joining the Raptors and being part of the Raptor family, plays will remember how DeRozan was traded/treated.
It's tough enough get player star players to play in Canada, and when you got one, and a player who had options to play elsewhere, it looks bad for the team when he traded.
Not saying it was a bad trade, but the optics from players/agents make the Raptors rather heartless.
Wonder how Leonard who had some difficulty with coaches apparently is going to managed by a rookie head coach.

I'm sure the players know that it's a business first. It's pretty funny how a guy making 27 million a season guaranteed is upset by being traded yet NFL players mangle their bodies and can be cut by the team at any time. You only get loyalty if you earn it and with all the chances Demar had to elevate his game he didn't, at least when it counted.

Going forward the Raps were in a tough position. Having Lowry, Derozan, and Iblanka on huge contracts and having traded away 1st rounders left the team with very little room to breath. Really this team would not have been able to really change the roster for next season. If they would have held on to DeRozan how much do you think it would have taken to resign him? Do you give a 31 year old player a retirement contract for being a really good regular season player in a few seasons? They are saving money on Khawi's contract and getting the better player along with a pretty good player in Green. If there was ever a season to go for it this is it with LeBron gone. They still don't have enough to beat GS but if they can manage to make the finals could go a long way in showing Khawi he has a better chance in a depleted east (like LeBron) to make the finals.

DeRozan knew that being loyal to Toronto meant he was going to get paid really well for the rest of his career. He was the leader of the team, top of the pecking order. Now he is going to have to earn his next payday in San Antonio and hopefully it makes him better for it.

 

[Voight]

I would. think this trade hurts the Raptors...long term.
When Masai is talking to UFA about joining the Raptors and being part of the Raptor family, plays will remember how DeRozan was traded/treated.
It's tough enough get player star players to play in Canada, and when you got one, and a player who had options to play elsewhere, it looks bad for the team when he traded.
Not saying it was a bad trade, but the optics from players/agents make the Raptors rather heartless.
Wonder how Leonard who had some difficulty with coaches apparently is going to managed by a rookie head coach.

I don't think it made them look that bad given what they received. Any GM in the NBA would have made that trade -- people don't realize that while it was nice for DeRozan to stay and be loyal, you always take the chance to acquire a top 5 player. If he had performed better in the playoffs or been a better defensive player it would have been harder to move him.

Besides, the Raps weren't going to give him a max contract in 2020 (when he can pot out) at 31 years of age so his time here wasn't going to end within 2 years anyway.

A lot of people speak highly of Nurse and think he'll be a good HC but I do wonder what would've happened if Masai had known they'd be making this trade. Impossible to know the answer but would they still go with Nurse? Keep Casey? Push harder for Bud? Hire one of the Spurs coaches they interviewed? The expectations just went way up and there's more at stake now.

Casey should have been fired a year or two before. Even with Kawhi, his message was not working and he wasn't letting Nurse explore the full potential of the offence.

Masai may have pushed harder for Budenholzer or one of the Spurs coaches - providing Leonard had no issues with them.

 

[Stylizer1]

I don't think it made them look that bad given what they received. Any GM in the NBA would have made that trade -- people don't realize that while it was nice for DeRozan to stay and be loyal, you always take the chance to acquire a top 5 player. If he had performed better in the playoffs or been a better defensive player it would have been harder to move him.

Besides, the Raps weren't going to give him a max contract in 2020 (when he can pot out) at 31 years of age so his time here wasn't going to end within 2 years anyway.



Casey should have been fired a year or two before. Even with Kawhi, his message was not working and he wasn't letting Nurse explore the full potential of the offence.

Masai may have pushed harder for Budenholzer or one of the Spurs coaches - providing Leonard had no issues with them.

I don't think any team was looking to trade for DeRozan and this was probably the only way. If Demar was making 20 million it would be a lot more attractive to other teams. DeRozan = George.

 

[Neutrinos]

Why has there been no press conference introducing Leonard?

 

[Voight]

Former Spurs guard Danny Green didn't know he was playing through a torn groin last season

Anyone still blaming Kawhi or...?

 

[hockeykicker]

 

[Terry Yake]

and i thought the lakers medical staff was bad

this is a whole different level of incompetence

 

[Big Poppa Puck]

If he played for the Sixers they would have found it and he would have sat out all year and then again this year for good measure.

 

[Avs_19]

Do we get a press conference at some point?

 

[Baxterman]

I don’t think it was a bad deal per se but it certainly wasn’t a good deal. Before the deal the Raptors were the 2nd or 3rd best team in the East that need some help/luck to mar the finals and had virtually no chance, outside of multiple injuries to the Warriors, to win the title. After the trade they are still in the exact same boat.

What this is is a typical Masai PR deal I which he can sell it as a great move by him and it makes so much noise at the time people ignore that it really results in nothing.

I have no problem moving out Demar as the team needed a big roster change but moving him out to stay in the same spot your team was in seems pretty useless unless you are trying to hide the fact that the team you built was just good not great.

 

[Dr Pepper]

The Raps won the deal on paper since they did get the best player in the deal, but Ujiri (and by extension, the team) took a beating as far as respect around the league goes, IMO.

Trading away DeMar a) after he committed to the team and the city and wanted to stay, and b) after giving him the strong impression that he wouldn't be moved. Gonna be tough to convince others to sign up for that, I think.

 

[Stylizer1]

The Raps won the deal on paper since they did get the best player in the deal, but Ujiri (and by extension, the team) took a beating as far as respect around the league goes, IMO.

Trading away DeMar a) after he committed to the team and the city and wanted to stay, and b) after giving him the strong impression that he wouldn't be moved. Gonna be tough to convince others to sign up for that, I think.

I don't think so. I think most players around the league know the business they are in. Toronto like many other city's are not a destination spot for free agents and that's not going to change unless said teams build up a solid core buy drafting really well.

They need to add another proven player to make sure they are as good as they need to be to make the finals.

 

[dahrougem2]

The Raps won the deal on paper since they did get the best player in the deal, but Ujiri (and by extension, the team) took a beating as far as respect around the league goes, IMO.

Trading away DeMar a) after he committed to the team and the city and wanted to stay, and b) after giving him the strong impression that he wouldn't be moved. Gonna be tough to convince others to sign up for that, I think.

The Raptors have never landed a big name free agent since their inception. Why would that change now?

This is the only way to improve the team, and the Raptors did the right thing. DeMar's feelings were hurt - so what. Maybe don't shrivel up and become a little ***** every single playoffs and this wouldn't have happened? At the end of the day, Masai didn't owe DeRozan anything. He gave him every opportunity here to lead the Raptors to the finals and DeMar couldn't get it done.

 

[Dr Pepper]

The Raptors have never landed a big name free agent since their inception. Why would that change now?

This is the only way to improve the team, and the Raptors did the right thing. DeMar's feelings were hurt - so what. Maybe don't shrivel up and become a little ***** every single playoffs and this wouldn't have happened? At the end of the day, Masai didn't owe DeRozan anything. He gave him every opportunity here to lead the Raptors to the finals and DeMar couldn't get it done.

You're right, DeMar alone obviously wasn't enough to propel the Raps past Cleveland.

So why did Masai lead him to believe he was safe in Toronto when a trade was imminent?

It's one thing to decide that things aren't working out and a split is needed, but shouldn't it be mutual? Lowry's silence on the issue should be an indication that he's not too happy about it either.

You're also right about Toronto not exactly being a top target among NBA free agents, no matter how badly Drake wishes it was.

But when other players realize that even those who WANT to be here get cast aside the way DeMar did, it's not a great look.

 

[dahrougem2]

You're right, DeMar alone obviously wasn't enough to propel the Raps past Cleveland.

So why did Masai lead him to believe he was safe in Toronto when a trade was imminent?

It's one thing to decide that things aren't working out and a split is needed, but shouldn't it be mutual? Lowry's silence on the issue should be an indication that he's not too happy about it either.

You're also right about Toronto not exactly being a top target among NBA free agents, no matter how badly Drake wishes it was.

But when other players realize that even those who WANT to be here get cast aside the way DeMar did, it's not a great look.

I don't believe Masai is stupid. I 100% believe that DeRozan was never involved in trade talks UNTIL the Spurs put the ask out there after Masai spoke with DeRozan at summer league. Nobody goes to his star player, tells him "I'm not trading you" and then trades him two days later unless that person is Marc Bergevin. I can see why that would affect DeRozan, but I don't believe Masai would do that. He's not stupid enough to do that.

It's funny, a lot of NBA players coming out and showing support for DeMar but almost everyone in the media coming out and saying what Masai did was the right thing.

 

[Dr Pepper]

I don't believe Masai is stupid. I 100% believe that DeRozan was never involved in trade talks UNTIL the Spurs put the ask out there after Masai spoke with DeRozan at summer league. Nobody goes to his star player, tells him "I'm not trading you" and then trades him two days later unless that person is Marc Bergevin. I can see why that would affect DeRozan, but I don't believe Masai would do that. He's not stupid enough to do that.

It's funny, a lot of NBA players coming out and showing support for DeMar but almost everyone in the media coming out and saying what Masai did was the right thing.

Considering the telecom empire that owns the team, this is hardly surprising.

 

[dahrougem2]

Considering the telecom empire that owns the team, this is hardly surprising.

Not Toronto media.

 

[Stylizer1]

You're right, DeMar alone obviously wasn't enough to propel the Raps past Cleveland.

So why did Masai lead him to believe he was safe in Toronto when a trade was imminent?

It's one thing to decide that things aren't working out and a split is needed, but shouldn't it be mutual? Lowry's silence on the issue should be an indication that he's not too happy about it either.

You're also right about Toronto not exactly being a top target among NBA free agents, no matter how badly Drake wishes it was.

But when other players realize that even those who WANT to be here get cast aside the way DeMar did, it's not a great look.

Why would Masai tell DeRozan he wasn't/was going to trade him? How does that help Masia in anyway? What if he tells him we are shopping you then the deal falls through and Demar has to play the season in Toronto? It is obvious from the way Demar handled it that he couldn't handle being told the truth. Sure it makes Masai look bad on the surface but to his bosses he made the right business decision and came out of it with a better team.

 

[Baxterman]

It's funny, a lot of NBA players coming out and showing support for DeMar but almost everyone in the media coming out and saying what Masai did was the right thing.

I am not surprised Masai is more of aPR guy than a quality GM.

The media down in the states love him because he loves talking, sells himself like crazy and allows them to write stories about how progressive the NBA is [mod].

Look how much of a pass he gets for being a poor GM. His Denver teams did nothing and he left that team with basically nothing. His Raptor teams have been entirely mediocre and that is with the majority of the talent coming from his predecessor and yet he is always talked as a top GM despite his track record showing nothing of the sort.

He is a media darling so of course they have his back here.

 

[Dr Pepper]

Funniest thing about all that is that Ujiri isnt even the Raps' GM. He's the team president.

Bobby Webster is their GM, and I dont think I've even seen him talk.

 

[dahrougem2]

I am not surprised Masai is more of aPR guy than a quality GM.

The media down in the states love him because he loves talking, sells himself like crazy and allows them to write stories about how progressive the NBA is by having a guy from Africa as a GM.

Look how much of a pass he gets for being a poor GM. His Denver teams did nothing and he left that team with basically nothing. His Raptor teams have been entirely mediocre and that is with the majority of the talent coming from his predecessor and yet he is always talked as a top GM despite his track record showing nothing of the sort.

He is a media darling so of course they have his back here.

How is he a poor GM? He fleeced the Knicks while in Denver with the 'Melo trade; he managed to acquire a then-star Andre Iguodala for expendable assets; he absolutely fleeced the hell out of the Knicks again with the Bargnani trade; got rid of the cancer known as Rudy Gay which elevated the Raptors; also killed it with the John Salmons for Lou Williams trade.

Yes, he inherited DeRozan and Lowry, but they had a lot of success so why blow it up too soon? He's showing now that he isn't afraid to make the big move after giving his team a legitimate shot over the years to win.

He's not perfect at all, and has made some boneheaded decisions (drafting Bruno Caboclo in 2014, signing DeMarre Carroll, then having to include a 1st round pick to trade Carroll), but he's a very good GM.

 

[Baxterman]

His “fleecing” of the Knicks in the Melo deal resulted in exactly zero play-off round wins for the Nuggets. He didn’t get back any quality assets and the deal didn’t help him build a competitive team in Denver. But in true Masai fashion in was a good PR move so everyone focuses on how it was s fleecing ignoring that in resulted in nothing on the court.

He then “fleeced” the Knicks again in the Bargnani deal in a trade that again resulted in jack squat positives on the court.

The Gay trade is the same again. A big “fleecing” at the time that resulted in no success or quality pieces for the Raps.

In TO he “built” the bench that TO media love to tout as some great thing but once again resulted in nothing come play-off time.

The Nuggets team he built did nothing with him there and nothing after he left despite adding an elite talent in Jokic to the group of nothing Masai left.

In Toronto he has built such a strong team around the pieces he was given that people are talking about how easy they can go into a rebuild if Kawai leaves. Not exactly a stellar team if it is ready to fall apart if one guy, who you acquired thanks to a piece fri the previous regime, is so key because the other pieces you added are so meh.

Who is the best player he has brought into the league? Siakim? OG? Those are meh bench players at best.

From the team he took over who are all the great players he brought into make team that much better?

His best moves seem to be trading big name guys for little to no return and trading for a guy that didn’t want to come to TO and is gone in a year. Hell of be able f the pluses of that much be is the team is constructed poorly enough that they can rebuild if he goes because Masai hasn’t brought in enough talent to sustain a competitive team.

 

[dahrougem2]

Man, you have an extremely weird way of looking at trades. Carmelo Anthony publicly wanted out and, not only that, but publicly let anyone who would listen know that he was signing with the Knicks and only the Knicks. He STILL managed to get 4 players, cash, two 1st's and two 2nd's. Like, I don't know what else you want the guy to do? Are you thinking the Nuggets will magically win the championship all of a sudden? How do you define success? He was only with the Nuggets for 1.5 more years after the Anthony trade.

He fleeced the Knicks in the Bargnani trade by getting a 1st and two 2nd's for a guy that very clearly was so bad it was laughable. Again, no idea how you can deny that.

The Gay trade wasn't a big success? That is the turning point for this Raptors run they were on prior to DeRozan getting traded. At that point in time, both Gay and Kyle Lowry were being shopped and Lowry was almost dealt, too, but Masai held off and the Raptors did a complete 180 from where they were with Gay on the team to becoming a perennial top-4 seed in the East.

Also, since coming to the Raptors, he's had the following picks:

2014: 20th, 37th, 59th
2015: 20th
2016: 9th (Bargnani trade), 27th
2017: 23rd

The only real shot at a "high end" player from the draft he had was with the 9th pick, and if you look at that draft, it's awful. Nobody really worthy of being selected ahead of Poeltl.

 

[Baxterman]

I measure success by winning and in the NBA basically winning in the play-offs. You keep talking about these trades as being such great returns but they led to basically nothing in terms of the teams success.

Denver makes that deal and remain a medicore/bad team. They don't come close to being a more competitive team, aren't close to even winning in the play-offs let alone going for a title. And yes he was only there for 1.5 years but it wasn't like the Nuggets took of with his roster after he left. So no they didn't have to win the title but being competitive would have at least shown he knew what he was doing. So great he won the PR on a deal that the Knicks could have waited on but in true Masai fashion the actual team didn't really improve or get more competitive. So great for him but if the team isn't better does it really matter?

Bargnani again a lot of hyperbole from you about how bad he was but lets say he is another deal with a lot of hype around it but the return once more is very meh if you actually look at it and take away the useless terms like fleecing and laughable. The Raptors make that deal and get back a lot of crap and pieces that do little to nothing to improve the deal. Another deal that improves Masai rep but doesn't make his team any better.

The fact that the Gay trade is looked at a turning point not because of the return but because of some BS about it changing the culture or direction of the team again shows a. how eak Masai's record really is and b. how much of it is based on myth.

As for not being able to do much with late picks, that is what good GMs do. The Spurs haven't drafted high in forever but they manage to continue to be a top team by using their picks to get quality guys. They don't whine about having low picks they identify talent and bring them in. Hell even the Warriors weren't built with top 3 picks, they may not have been all guys in the 20's but Thompson and Curry were in the 7-12 range and Green was a 2nd rounder. Again good teams bring in good talent. Ainge used a poor 1st round pick to get Isaiah Thomas. Where are the moves by Masai like these?

You use a lot of terms like laughable and fleecing to try and make the deals look better rather than just letting the players he got back speak for themselves. It is because just looking at the results and players he has acquired doesn't paint a great picture. The only positives he has is if you create a narrative around the deals to make them look better. If you want to see a fleecing look at the Ainge deal with the Nets that was a fleecing that actually led to not only good PR but tangible assets back that will help the team breeze by the team Masai has relied on Coangelo to put together.

I will ask again who are the best players that Masai has brought into the league or to the Raptors? Hell we can go back to the Denver deal and the fleecing for Carmelo and his best acquisition was Gallinari? I mean I really hope it was something better than OG or Siakom or Fred Van freaking Vleet, because that doesn't come close to what the actual good GMs in the league bring to their teams.

 

[dahrougem2]

I measure success by winning and in the NBA basically winning in the play-offs. .

This right here is why I can't continue the conversation. Because if we use this measure of success, the only successful teams over the last 4 years have been Golden State and Cleveland.