Confirmed Trade: [TOR/OTT] Nikita Zaitsev, Connor Brown, and M. Carcone for Cody Ceci, B. Harpur, A. Luchuk, 2020 3rd

Status
Not open for further replies.

ottomaddox

Registered User
Oct 31, 2017
10,592
4,600
Toronto
I think (not 100% certain) that Zaitsev will be paired with Chabot. Does Chabot cover up Zaitsev's warts? I think he could.

The problem with Zaitsev in the last two seasons is that he was paired with Gardiner a lot. Gardiner cannot help cover up the warts of any player. He's certainly one of TOR's worst defensive D men.

I see this opportunity for Zaitsev likely to succeed.
 

joe dirte

Registered User
Sep 28, 2017
9,430
3,559
Except you also said Zaitsev is a safe, middle pairing dman which is absolutely not true based on the last two seasons.
Thats your opinion. I disagree. Leaf fans have a long history of villifying decent dmen and running them out of town. Zaitsev and gardiner are two recent examples. Zaitsev isnt going to make or break a team. He will just do his job.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bukwas

All Mod Cons

Registered User
Sep 7, 2018
9,836
10,131
Thats your opinion. I disagree. Leaf fans have a long history of villifying decent dmen and running them out of town. Zaitsev and gardiner are two recent examples. Zaitsev isnt going to make or break a team. He will just do his job.
Leafs fans are always accused of overrating their players. Do they always overrate their players? Or do they always vilify their players?
 

joe dirte

Registered User
Sep 28, 2017
9,430
3,559
Leafs fans are always accused of overrating their players. Do they always overrate their players? Or do they always vilify their players?
probably a little of both. First, I AM a Leaf fan, so no need to get defensive.

There are quite a few dmen that have been scapegoated over the years. McCabe, Murphy. Aki Berg to an extent (was just getting played way over his head). Now Gardiner, Zaitsev.
 

Finnish your Czech

J'aime Les offres hostiles
Nov 25, 2009
64,457
1,986
Toronto
Thats your opinion. I disagree. Leaf fans have a long history of villifying decent dmen and running them out of town. Zaitsev and gardiner are two recent examples. Zaitsev isnt going to make or break a team. He will just do his job.
Gardiner was villified by a (vocal) minority of Leaf fans. Zaitsev was villified by all Leaf fans. Gardiner (when not injured) is so much better than Zaitsev
 

joe dirte

Registered User
Sep 28, 2017
9,430
3,559
Gardiner was villified by a (vocal) minority of Leaf fans. Zaitsev was villified by all Leaf fans. Gardiner (when not injured) is so much better than Zaitsev

Yes, Gardiner is a better dman, no doubt. Zaitsev was not villified by all. And not that it matters, Larry Murphy was villified by all too, shortly before going on to be a top dman on a cup winning team.

You have your opinion, I have mine. I'm not suggesting Zaitsev will go on to stardom, but I think he'll be just fine.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bukwas

All Mod Cons

Registered User
Sep 7, 2018
9,836
10,131
probably a little of both. First, I AM a Leaf fan, so no need to get defensive.

There are quite a few dmen that have been scapegoated over the years. McCabe, Murphy. Aki Berg to an extent (was just getting played way over his head). Now Gardiner, Zaitsev.
I've found Gardiner and Zaitsev have been vilified by fans of all teams to be honest. I haven't found Leafs fans to be any different. In the same manner, I've found both Leafs and non-Leafs fans to be fairly appreciative of Morgan Rielly
 

All Mod Cons

Registered User
Sep 7, 2018
9,836
10,131
Yes, Gardiner is a better dman, no doubt. Zaitsev was not villified by all. And not that it matters, Larry Murphy was villified by all too, shortly before going on to be a top dman on a cup winning team.

You have your opinion, I have mine. I'm not suggesting Zaitsev will go on to stardom, but I think he'll be just fine.
I prefer Zaitsev to Gardiner.

To be fair I'd prefer a mannequin to Gardiner
 

ToDavid

Registered User
Dec 13, 2018
4,029
4,978
Thats your opinion. I disagree. Leaf fans have a long history of villifying decent dmen and running them out of town. Zaitsev and gardiner are two recent examples. Zaitsev isnt going to make or break a team. He will just do his job.

The vast majority of us still love Gardiner and I believe he would have been back in a heartbeat if it weren't for cap constraints. Management has been very clear that they would have loved to have him back.

That we're villifying "decent" defensemen isn't very consistent with the fact that we've been told almost daily by 30 other fanbases how terrible our defense is. It wasn't Leafs fans in those threads about Zaitsev deeming his contract the worst in the league and untradeable. It's not Leafs fans in those Gardiner threads saying how much his team will regret his contract.
 

joe dirte

Registered User
Sep 28, 2017
9,430
3,559
I've found Gardiner and Zaitsev have been vilified by fans of all teams to be honest. I haven't found Leafs fans to be any different. In the same manner, I've found both Leafs and non-Leafs fans to be fairly appreciative of Morgan Rielly
Well a lot of Leaf players get villified by all teams. Leaf fans defend some, vilify others.

Morgan Rielly, yeah, he's been pretty great in recent years. But there are a lot of posters out there STILL cutting him down. He was Norris contending for the first 50 games of the season, and there were people absolutely tearing him down at that point.
 

ottomaddox

Registered User
Oct 31, 2017
10,592
4,600
Toronto
The vast majority of us still love Gardiner and I believe he would have been back in a heartbeat if it weren't for cap constraints. Management has been very clear that they would have loved to have him back.

That we're villifying "decent" defensemen isn't very consistent with the fact that we've been told almost daily by 30 other fanbases how terrible our defense is. It wasn't Leafs fans in those threads about Zaitsev deeming his contract the worst in the league and untradeable. It's not Leafs fans in those Gardiner threads saying how much his team will regret his contract.

I don't know. I think the fact that they traded for Muzzin makes me think they planned to move on from Gardiner all along.
 

Lil Sebastian Cossa

Opinions are share are my own personal opinions.
Jul 6, 2012
11,436
7,446
Leafs fans are always accused of overrating their players. Do they always overrate their players? Or do they always vilify their players?

Yes.

Zaitsev was always "look at this amazing find for our top 4 that we got." Until he wasn't. Dermott right now is "Holy crap, this guy is awesome and you better watch out!" Until a year or two from now and he'll be the next guy you're vilifying.
 

joe dirte

Registered User
Sep 28, 2017
9,430
3,559
The vast majority of us still love Gardiner and I believe he would have been back in a heartbeat if it weren't for cap constraints. Management has been very clear that they would have loved to have him back.

That we're villifying "decent" defensemen isn't very consistent with the fact that we've been told almost daily by 30 other fanbases how terrible our defense is. It wasn't Leafs fans in those threads about Zaitsev deeming his contract the worst in the league and untradeable. It's not Leafs fans in those Gardiner threads saying how much his team will regret his contract.

yeah, I'd love Gardiner back, but we can't afford it. A defense of Rielly, Muzzin, Barrie, Gardiner, Dermott, and Zaitsev would be a pretty damn solid defense. But that's $25 or $30 mil in Dmen, and way more than the Leafs can afford.
 

All Mod Cons

Registered User
Sep 7, 2018
9,836
10,131
Yes.

Zaitsev was always "look at this amazing find for our top 4 that we got." Until he wasn't. Dermott right now is "Holy crap, this guy is awesome and you better watch out!" Until a year or two from now and he'll be the next guy you're vilifying.
Are you explaining every single fan base here?
 

ToDavid

Registered User
Dec 13, 2018
4,029
4,978
I don't know. I think the fact that they traded for Muzzin makes me think they planned to move on from Gardiner all along.

I don't think you're completely wrong, but I think it more came from an understanding that there was a good chance he wasn't going to fit under our cap, rather than a desire to move on from him.
 

Lil Sebastian Cossa

Opinions are share are my own personal opinions.
Jul 6, 2012
11,436
7,446
Are you explaining every single fan base here?

I am. You asked if Leafs fans overvalue or vilify their players. The answer is Yes. And that's true of every fanbase.

Like for the Wings "Kindl, Smith, Marchenko, Ouellet, and Sproul were supposed to be the next line in our history of good defensemen. Until it turned out Brendan Smith has the IQ of a turnip, Jakub Kindl played with all the ferocity of a mildly constipated kitten, Marchenko and Ouellet skated like their blades were literally made of concrete, and we found out Ryan Sproul's noggin has a gigantic leak at the bottom of the "defensive positioning" cylinder that did not allow any of it to stick in his head. Every team does it, so maybe don't get huffy when someone points out that the Leafs do it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Slyfox

All Mod Cons

Registered User
Sep 7, 2018
9,836
10,131
I am. You asked if Leafs fans overvalue or vilify their players. The answer is Yes. And that's true of every fanbase.

Like for the Wings "Kindl, Smith, Marchenko, Ouellet, and Sproul were supposed to be the next line in our history of good defensemen. Until it turned out Brendan Smith has the IQ of a turnip, Jakub Kindl played with all the ferocity of a mildly constipated kitten, Marchenko and Ouellet skated like their blades were literally made of concrete, and we found out Ryan Sproul's noggin has a gigantic leak at the bottom of the "defensive positioning" cylinder that did not allow any of it to stick in his head. Every team does it, so maybe don't get huffy when someone points out that the Leafs do it.
I think you're overestimating my huffiness. :laugh:
 

Patmac40

BESTPOSTERINTHEGAME
Jun 7, 2012
5,251
863
Halifax, Nova Scotia
i should preface this by saying i'm not being combative - what underlying statistics can we use to show the effectiveness of wingers helping exit the zone. it 'seems' to me last year toronto's wingers were very inconsistent at being effective high relay options getting the puck out outside of marner/hyman.... his rookie year he had responsible guys like JVR, Komarov, Martin willing to stay and help.. hell even Ben Smith and Soshnikov made the effort to get our first then move up.. it was a big shift to the kids.

My only argument here is he does this at a much lower rate than the rest of his defensive teammates while they still have the same wingers. Quite a few of the defensemen on the roster were solid at getting out in a controlled manner but Zaitsev was not. Based on the data I have, here are the controlled exits (pass or carry) and fails from the Leafs d last year:

Rielly has a controlled exit 37% of the time and fails 14.5% of the time
Gardiner has a controlled exit 33% of the time and fails 14% of the time
Dermott has a controlled exit 42% of the time and fails 15% of the time
Hainsey has a controlled exit 26% of the time and fails 24% of the time
Zaitsev has a controlled exit 19% of the time and fails 24% of the time

I don't have the data with Muzzin in Toronto but if you're failing more often than you have controlled exits, there's likely an issue with that particular player. He doesn't fit the long pass breakout and maybe they'll run more of a 5-man breakout in Ottawa which will help with this but it's obvious that he's pretty far behind the curve compared to his teammates in this respect.

Edit: If someone has a zone exit/entry data resource for last year's data that they could point me to or send to me that would be greatly appreciated. This is a tough one to find a large data sample from last year based on what I'm finding.
 
  • Like
Reactions: h2owned and qqaz

justafan22

Registered User
Jun 22, 2014
11,629
6,249
I am. You asked if Leafs fans overvalue or vilify their players. The answer is Yes. And that's true of every fanbase.

Like for the Wings "Kindl, Smith, Marchenko, Ouellet, and Sproul were supposed to be the next line in our history of good defensemen. Until it turned out Brendan Smith has the IQ of a turnip, Jakub Kindl played with all the ferocity of a mildly constipated kitten, Marchenko and Ouellet skated like their blades were literally made of concrete, and we found out Ryan Sproul's noggin has a gigantic leak at the bottom of the "defensive positioning" cylinder that did not allow any of it to stick in his head. Every team does it, so maybe don't get huffy when someone points out that the Leafs do it.

I think the point is that fans overvalue periphery players a bit more than their stars.
 

joe dirte

Registered User
Sep 28, 2017
9,430
3,559
I don't know. I think the fact that they traded for Muzzin makes me think they planned to move on from Gardiner all along.
That might be true, but that might also have something to do with Muzzin being half the price Gardiner was expected to comman
 

ottomaddox

Registered User
Oct 31, 2017
10,592
4,600
Toronto
I think the point is that fans overvalue periphery players a bit more than their stars.

This might be true, but some of us don't take well to saying that "____ sucks!"

To only praise superstars and not post something like *"hey i don't think that Dave 'Tiger' Williams is a complete bum", etc.




*A heated debate my Dad and Uncle got into years ago.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->