Confirmed Signing with Link: [TOR] Marner re-signs (6 years, $10.893M AAV) Part II

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Noldo

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May 28, 2007
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It will be interesting to see whether this contract end up being sign of times to come, like Eichel’s and Draisaitl’s contracts, or aberration like Subban’s, who remained as defenseman with the highest cap hit by far for several years.
 

hawksrule

Lot of brains but no polish
May 18, 2014
20,802
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You called out the leafs' D for being subpar, my "case" would be defending as to why that is not the case. Its as simple as that. Dance around it with this fancy talk all you like. I wont go out of my way to explain their d situation until you actually call out specifics rather than an elementary remark.

That’s not what defending means.

Suit yourself, I don’t care if you weigh in on their defense, or not.
 

CatchyTune

JOHN TAVARES IS A MAPLE LEAF
Jan 8, 2016
5,757
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That’s not what defending means.

Suit yourself, I don’t care if you weigh in on their defense, or not.

Defending:

"to maintain or support in the face of argument or hostile criticism"

There is no way I can weigh in on the defence, as there are no points to counter, as nothing of value was said on your part. Do you you even really believe their defence is poor or did you just want to stir the pot within the thread, not expecting a reply?
 

BoredBrandonPridham

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Aug 9, 2011
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I am aware that you can do it in the offseason, its usually better to do it during the regular season while being as close to the cap as possible to gain the most benefit.

Not true, you can gain full benefit starting LTIR in offseason. The goal is to get the ACSL to exactly the cap limit, which is entirely possible in the offseason.

E: I’m talking about training camp formula here btw.
 

biotk

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Jan 3, 2017
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Do you think that's all he'll play as this year?

Yes. Who does he displace?

Most Leaf fans seem to pencil him in as a guaranteed top four defender, sooner or later.

Dermott likely tops out as a 4/5. He has good numbers because Babcock super-shelters the 3rd pairing. Those good numbers make fans angry that he is not in the top-4. But his limited times playing up the lineup he has struggled. He has to prove he is a top-4 before he should be paid like one.

Fans say lots of things. Fans also say that Dermott can replace Ceci because Dermott played on the right side on the Marlies. I watched Dermott play a lot of games with the Marlies and that’s news to me.

Even if he improves moderately on his play last year, you're looking at closer to a $2.5 million D-man.

Some comparables:
Troy Stetcher 2.325 x 2 yrs.
Markus Nutivaara - 2.7 x 4 yrs.
Ryan Pulock 2.0 x 2 yrs.

What was his play last year and what would be deemed moderate improvement?
 

Sidney the Kidney

One last time
Jun 29, 2009
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Yes. Who does he displace?

Well, based on projected lineups I've seen from Leaf fans, eventually Ceci on the second pairing. Though I can't tell you how accurate that would be as that would require him to play his off-side.

Dermott likely tops out as a 4/5. He has good numbers because Babcock super-shelters the 3rd pairing. Those good numbers make fans angry that he is not in the top-4. But his limited times playing up the lineup he has struggled. He has to prove he is a top-4 before he should be paid like one.

Being paid $2.5 to $3 million per year would be being paid like a promising #5 with top 4 upside. No proven top four defender makes that little (unless he literally broke out already AFTER that contract had been signed), so I'm not sure why you think he'd be paid like one at the price I suggested.

Fans say lots of things. Fans also say that Dermott can replace Ceci because Dermott played on the right side on the Marlies. I watched Dermott play a lot of games with the Marlies and that’s news to me.

See first paragraph response.

What was his play last year and what would be deemed moderate improvement?

He played like a #5 with glimpses of top four potential. Which would be in line with the dollar amount I proposed. So I'm not sure why you think $1.5 million would be more accurate than my range given the comparables to Dermott are above $1.5 million (especially when you factor in inflation since Dermott won't be needing to be re-signed until next summer).
 

simon IC

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Not a Leaf fan, but I grudgingly admit their offense is formidable. Of their "big four", I think Marner is the best, because he is the most well rounded. He is an awesome hockey player, and I think Toronto did well to lock him in for 6 years. For what he provides, I don't think he is overpaid at all.
 

BoredBrandonPridham

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Aug 9, 2011
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Do you think that's all he'll play as this year? Most Leaf fans seem to pencil him in as a guaranteed top four defender, sooner or later. Even if he improves moderately on his play last year, you're looking at closer to a $2.5 million D-man.

Some comparables:
Troy Stetcher 2.325 x 2 yrs.
Markus Nutivaara - 2.7 x 4 yrs.
Ryan Pulock 2.0 x 2 yrs.

No one that I've seen pencils him into top 4. He'll play 3rd pairing LD. Babcock already stated bluntly in training camp that the top 4 is set (Reilly/Ceci + Muzzin/Barrie) and there are 2 jobs open.

But I thought he was a top 4 defender?

He was always behind Reilly and Gardiner on the left, and will be again this year. Given he has done well with 3rd pairing usage, it's not out of the question he's a top-4. He'll likely get the defender equivalent of a Kapanen/Johnson contract, but not a what many here would consider an overpayment for where he's played.

Well, based on projected lineups I've seen from Leaf fans, eventually Ceci on the second pairing. Though I can't tell you how accurate that would be as that would require him to play his off-side.

I'd be shocked to see any Leafs fan break the strict RHD/LHD separation that has been employed on this team for the last 4 years. Especially for a young defender still trying to gain confidence in the league. He's not competing with Ceci, he's competing with Muzzin, and he's an insurance policy if we can't fit Muzzin.
 

The90

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Feb 27, 2017
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I don't think much of Leafs management. They fall backwards into a first overall pick, hope their other guys over perform and that seems to have been their plan in hindsight. Dubas might as well let his players write their own cheque.
That’s great. But that’s not what I asked.
 

Pavels Dog

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Feb 18, 2013
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What are you talking about 10-12 players? Its just d men coming off the books next year and some bottom end forwards who will be replaced or signed to a similar contract below a million. Obviously that cap friendly number of 15 million is accounting for those forwards coming off the books...So its actually more like 13 million space to resign the D men but then you have to realize that our roster will be smaller than what it currently is on cap friendly so its actually even more space. Also who knows what the cap will go up to next year like you said. We will have near 20 million to sign the d men...We have more than enough wiggle room next year and with Liljegren and Sandin coming that gives us even more space to wiggle.

We could definitely afford to sign Barrie at 8, resign Dermott at 4, and re sign Ceci/Muzzin around 4-5.

That will give us a solid top 4 and we will have Sandin-Liljegren while not having to remove any forwards. (Unless Bracco/Mikheyev has a big season and command a raise)
The point is that cap space isn't all that much when you're dealing with having to sign so many players.. even if they are cheap they cost money.

I definitely don't see how you would afford that D unless the cap jumps by a LOT. Playing armchair GM on capfriendly and inserting Barrie at 8, Dermott at 4 and Muzzin at 4 leaves me with about 1.7million on an 85 million dollar cap to sign 3 D-men, 2 forwards and a backup goalie. That's actually impossible. And oh, I actually inserted Mikheyev on the same salary he has this year so if he demands any kind of raise there's even less money if you want to keep him.
 

CreeksideStrangler

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Feb 9, 2011
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Not a Leaf fan, but I grudgingly admit their offense is formidable. Of their "big four", I think Marner is the best, because he is the most well rounded. He is an awesome hockey player, and I think Toronto did well to lock him in for 6 years. For what he provides, I don't think he is overpaid at all.

yes he is good but put him on a line without superstars and he isnt as effective. auston and jon can rack em up on the 4th line. we need a playmaker like marner but he isnt the best of them all as some claim
 
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