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Eklund Rumor: TOR and VAN in a dogfight for Hanifin

Chrispy

Chrispy

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slimbob8 said:
Do any Canes fans even think a deal could be worked around Kapanen+ for Hanifin or is that a non-starter as a base? I see a lot of chatter about it and it seems way too low from my view unless the plus was significant. I'm very high on Hanifin.
Click to expand...

I don't either. I think the Canes are interested in Kapanen, but don't like Kapanen+ for Hanifin. Toronto is interested in Hanifin, but don't like Hanifin+ for Nylander.

So unless we see a different deal around Faulk, I think both sides are likely to walk away from this deal. Even if the Canes have identified Hanifin as the best value as a trade chip to improve the forwards, I think some other team will outbid Kapanen+.
 
Finlandia WOAT

Finlandia WOAT

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Ziggdiezan said:
How can that be true when Faulk, the 2nd pairing RHD played primarily with Fluery and TVR the 3rd pairing RHD played primarily with Hanifin.
Click to expand...

Okay, here's what happened: at the beginning of the year, the pairings were slavin pesce, hanifin faulk, fleury tvr. standard nhl unit, top 4 vs top 9, fleury sheltered against the 4th line.

Fleury and dahlbeck are bad nhl players, no two ways about it. fleury was taken ahead of w nylander and n ehlers....just awful.

what ended up happening: because everyone on the 4th line unit sucked (cept tvr, who wad better than advertised), they got pinned a lot in their ozone. and a team rolling 4 lines could execute a switch and get crosby or ovie or stamkos out against a tired hadyn Fleury, nordstrom, kruger and jooris. and score.

at forward, jordan staal and whomever were good defensively, but skinner and derej ryan were trainwrecks in their dzone. skinner and ryan were put together and heavily sheltered with ozone starts, also because skinner is a guy you want for an offensive zone faceoff.

to fix the defense problem, peters started putting pesce slavin out with the 4th line and then keep that d pair out against the 1st line. since you now have basically a 3, two 4/5's and two 6's at best against the 2nd and 3rd lines, peters split up hanifin and faulk(best two defenders), put fleury with faulk so Faulk could babysit the 6 and tvr with hanifin. peters put rask and (generally) the responsible wingers with faulk and fleury/dahlbeck because putting fleury with skinner and ryan would be a disaster. so hanifin/tvr goes with skinner/ryan and the ozone starts.

the funky deployment/ advanced stats is the result of having three different groups (fleury, skin/ryan, 4th line) that needed to be sheltered from nhl comp. you get something like fleury having harder usage than hanifin, but if the canes were holding onto a lead fleuey's minutes were cut and hanifin placed with faulk.

tl:dr: peters calculated he'd rather have fleury/ dahlbeck with rask, faulk and mcginn in the dzone than fleury with skinner and ryan in the ozone.
 
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Breakers

Breakers

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Meh......
I wouldn't pay that price.
Favorable zone starts and cushy matchups, I wouldn't break the bank on him.

This is the one instance where Vancouver should go the mystery box and get one of the big 4 d-man in the draft.
I also see the overrating of Kapanen's value is alive and well.
 
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Big Daddy Cane

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By my count, in the 64 games in which Hanifin and Fleury both dressed, Hanifin logged more minutes at EV 41 times whereas Fleury logged more minutes at EV 23 times.

Admittedly, that’s an imperfect way of looking at things considering that Hanifin would play more frequently at the end of games in which Carolina was trailing and would take a shift with Faulk after a PK. However, in general, I think that shows why Carolina fans are pushing back at the label of Hanifin as a 3rd pairing guy.
 
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Ziggdiezan

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Finlandia WOAT said:
Okay, here's what happened: at the beginning of the year, the pairings were slavin pesce, hanifin faulk, fleury tvr. standard nhl unit, top 4 vs top 9, fleury sheltered against the 4th line.

Fleury and dahlbeck are bad nhl players, no two ways about it. fleury was taken ahead of w nylander and n ehlers....just awful.

what ended up happening: because everyone on the 4th line unit sucked (cept tvr, who wad better than advertised), they got pinned a lot in their ozone. and a team rolling 4 lines could execute a switch and get crosby or ovie or stamkos out against a tired hadyn Fleury, nordstrom, kruger and jooris. and score.

at forward, jordan staal and whomever were good defensively, but skinner and derej ryan were trainwrecks in their dzone. skinner and ryan were put together and heavily sheltered with ozone starts, also because skinner is a guy you want for an offensive zone faceoff.

to fix the defense problem, peters started putting pesce slavin out with the 4th line and then keep that d pair out against the 1st line. since you now have basically a 3, two 4/5's and two 6's at best against the 2nd and 3rd lines, peters split up hanifin and faulk(best two defenders), put fleury with faulk so Faulk could babysit the 6 and tvr with hanifin. peters put rask and (generally) the responsible wingers with faulk and fleury/dahlbeck because putting fleury with skinner and ryan would be a disaster. so hanifin/tvr goes with skinner/ryan and the ozone starts.

the funky deployment/ advanced stats is the result of having three different groups (fleury, skin/ryan, 4th line) that needed to be sheltered from nhl comp. you get something like fleury having harder usage than hanifin, but if the canes were holding onto a lead fleuey's minutes were cut and hanifin placed with faulk.

tl:dr: peters calculated he'd rather have fleury/ dahlbeck with rask, faulk and mcginn in the dzone than fleury with skinner and ryan in the ozone.
Click to expand...
I'm not trying to argue that Hanifin needed the zone usage he got or that the pairings were setup in such a way because of him. More than he played the majority of the time on the third pairing, yes it was likely for all the reasons you described.

However, that doesn't mean he didn't get used primarily on the third pairing (Hanifin + TVR) and received the lowest QoC and highest offensive zone start of any two players who primarly played together.

Also not saying that Hanifin didn't drive the pairing and dominant his match ups. I get he stepped up a pairing due to injury or when chasing a lead (as offensive defenders often do), I just think it is pretty obvious he played on the third pairing for the majority of the season and the majority of his ice time at even strength. Again not saying he played there because he needed to play there to play well, just that it inflates stats to get such a high offensive zone start ratio compared to your teammates.
 
Finlandia WOAT

Finlandia WOAT

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Ziggdiezan said:
However, that doesn't mean he didn't get used primarily on the third pairing (Hanifin + TVR)
Click to expand...

Listen.

In a normal nhl d scheme set up, the best defensive unit is put out against the best unit on the opposition, no? then they face the brunt of the 2nd unit.

The 2nd best defensive unit then comes on, and they face the fumes of unit 2 and the brunt of the 3rd unit.

then the 3rd d unit comes on and faces the fumes of the 3rd and the 4th offensive opposition unit.

right? standard nhl defensive rotation. "rolling 4 lines"

bill peters' squad didn't run that. he micromanaged his lines. because the canes had three units (3rd and 4th scoring units, 3rd d unit) that were a trainwreck and couldn't handle nhl comp if put together. hence why fleury/dahlbeck was given the best defensive players not named staal, slavin or pesce; slavin pesce played against the 4th line with their own 4th line before the canes 4th line would switch with staal while slavin/pesce stay on vs. the opp 1st unit, and skinner/ryan/hanifin were fed ozone starts.

so the core point here is: labeling hanifin the 3rd lhd is misconstruing how the hurricanes were set up.

EDIT: I think the reason some 'Canes fans are up in arms over this is because the entire reason Peters went to this crazy defensive scheme in the first place is because Fleury couldn't handle the minutes that Hanifin played as a bottom pair guy last year, which was, in part, due to the 4th line of Nordstrom-Kruger-Jooris being terrible and getting wrecked by 4th line competition. Under the definitions you're insisting upon, Fleury was the #2 LHD while Hanifin was the #3- yet not only is Hanifin >>>>>> Fleury, Fleury was part of the reason for the wonky set up in the first place.
 
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MinJaBen

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slimbob8 said:
Do any Canes fans even think a deal could be worked around Kapanen+ for Hanifin or is that a non-starter as a base? I see a lot of chatter about it and it seems way too low from my view unless the plus was significant. I'm very high on Hanifin.
Click to expand...

I would hope not. But if I'm playing Devils advocate and lets say Hanifin was saying to management that he wanted to be traded or he wouldn't sign so that management was willing to take a package vs. a one for one deal, then maybe a Kapanen +1st+Sparks gets it done.
 

VanJack

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Would really depend who's left on the board for the Canucks at #7....in the unlikely event that Bovquist, Bouchard, Hughes and Dobson are all gone, then could see them stepping up for Hanifin....otherwise they'd be just smarter to go ahead and draft a d-man.
 
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Notsince67

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MinJaBen said:
I would hope not. But if I'm playing Devils advocate and lets say Hanifin was saying to management that he wanted to be traded or he wouldn't sign so that management was willing to take a package vs. a one for one deal, then maybe a Kapanen +1st+Sparks gets it done.
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Forgot about Sparks. I am sure any deal with Canes would probably involve sparks
 
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Notsince67

Notsince67

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VanJack said:
Would really depend who's left on the board for the Canucks at #7....in the unlikely event that Bovquist, Bouchard, Hughes and Dobson are all gone, then could see them stepping up for Hanifin....otherwise they'd be just smarter to go ahead and draft a d-man.
Click to expand...
Defensemen are a crapshoot. Burns was drafted 20th. Byfuglian...245th, Suban..43rd, Erik Karlson...15th, John Carlson...27th.
In my opinion, you pick the best identifiable player in the draft and you trade for your needs
Just saying
 
Notsince67

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Ward is a UFA and Darling is terrible. Canes will address goaltending whether you like it or not.
 
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go comets

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[mod] Spark's a 25 yr old goalie on a stacked team in the AHL. That does not make him an NHL goalie... See Markstrom, Jacob.......
 
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Ziggdiezan

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Finlandia WOAT said:
Listen.

In a normal nhl d scheme set up, the best defensive unit is put out against the best unit on the opposition, no? then they face the brunt of the 2nd unit.

The 2nd best defensive unit then comes on, and they face the fumes of unit 2 and the brunt of the 3rd unit.

then the 3rd d unit comes on and faces the fumes of the 3rd and the 4th offensive opposition unit.

right? standard nhl defensive rotation. "rolling 4 lines"

bill peters' squad didn't run that. he micromanaged his lines. because the canes had three units (3rd and 4th scoring units, 3rd d unit) that were a trainwreck and couldn't handle nhl comp if put together. hence why fleury/dahlbeck was given the best defensive players not named staal, slavin or pesce; slavin pesce played against the 4th line with their own 4th line before the canes 4th line would switch with staal while slavin/pesce stay on vs. the opp 1st unit, and skinner/ryan/hanifin were fed ozone starts.

so the core point here is: labeling hanifin the 3rd lhd is misconstruing how the hurricanes were set up.

EDIT: I think the reason some 'Canes fans are up in arms over this is because the entire reason Peters went to this crazy defensive scheme in the first place is because Fleury couldn't handle the minutes that Hanifin played as a bottom pair guy last year, which was, in part, due to the 4th line of Nordstrom-Kruger-Jooris being terrible and getting wrecked by 4th line competition. Under the definitions you're insisting upon, Fleury was the #2 LHD while Hanifin was the #3- yet not only is Hanifin >>>>>> Fleury, Fleury was part of the reason for the wonky set up in the first place.
Click to expand...
Regarding the Edit, I never said that Fluery was worth more than Hanifin, other people inferred that. It is much better to dominate 3rd pairing usage than it is to get destroyed in 2nd pairing usage. Especially when the defender is as young as Hanifin is.

How would classify him, considering he had the highest offensive zone starts on the team and tied for 2nd easiest QoC? My original point was his Corsi stats are influenced by his very high offensive zone start%.
 
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